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Offlinebit_slice
A. Renee

Registered: 12/12/05
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Anyone who claims they understand quantum physics.......
    #5215071 - 01/23/06 06:54 PM (18 years, 8 days ago)

is lying.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Anyone who claims they understand quantum physics....... [Re: bit_slice]
    #5215079 - 01/23/06 06:56 PM (18 years, 8 days ago)

That's a bit absolute, don't you think?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinebit_slice
A. Renee

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 187
Loc: america, fuck yeah
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Re: Anyone who claims they understand quantum physics....... [Re: trendal]
    #5215084 - 01/23/06 06:57 PM (18 years, 8 days ago)

it's a challenge


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Anyone who claims they understand quantum physics....... [Re: bit_slice]
    #5215087 - 01/23/06 06:58 PM (18 years, 8 days ago)

It's a little vague for a challenge...

What's the deal here?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinebit_slice
A. Renee

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 187
Loc: america, fuck yeah
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: Anyone who claims they understand quantum physics....... [Re: trendal]
    #5215109 - 01/23/06 07:02 PM (18 years, 8 days ago)

earlier today i was telling a friend that i just don't get it and he replied, "Anyone who claims they understand quantum theory is lying."


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Anyone who claims they understand quantum physics....... [Re: bit_slice]
    #5215126 - 01/23/06 07:06 PM (18 years, 8 days ago)

That's just a tag-line physicists use to get the point across that QM is mostly counter-intuitive. Just think of what they're saying: "I'm a quantum-physicist...but anyone who says they understand quantum physics must be lying."

I find it rather hard to believe that we could make 80 years of progress in a theory without understanding it :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinebit_slice
A. Renee

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 187
Loc: america, fuck yeah
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: Anyone who claims they understand quantum physics....... [Re: trendal]
    #5215163 - 01/23/06 07:18 PM (18 years, 8 days ago)

that's it! stephen hawking is going into Grateful Jim's dead pool.  :smile:


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OfflineNashbar
just strange.... on drugs
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Re: Anyone who claims they understand quantum physics....... [Re: bit_slice]
    #5215571 - 01/23/06 08:52 PM (18 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

bit_slice said:
is lying.




did you figure that out all by yourself?

people have been saying this for 70 years. it was a joke amongst intellects before the Depression.


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OfflineNashbar
just strange.... on drugs
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Re: Anyone who claims they understand quantum physics....... [Re: bit_slice]
    #5215585 - 01/23/06 08:56 PM (18 years, 8 days ago)

maybe the funny part is supposed to be, that it's understanding quantum physics isn't hard, applying it is the challenge. Probably why it took all this time to make something that actually uses the theories effectively.

http://www.physorg.com/news10079.html


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Offlinebit_slice
A. Renee

Registered: 12/12/05
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Re: Anyone who claims they understand quantum physics....... [Re: Nashbar]
    #5215839 - 01/23/06 10:05 PM (18 years, 8 days ago)

:boring:


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Anyone who claims they understand quantum physics....... [Re: bit_slice]
    #5216236 - 01/23/06 11:49 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

Heh, I go to school at the University of Wisconsin, alot of my friends are Phsyicists here, where we have one of the best Physics departments in the country.

I can tell you, from having them blow my mind many times when twisted on drugs, that they know what they are talking about.

Honestly, I'm a Geophysics student, I'm prett smart. But when these guys start talking about Cosmology and Universal Origins, my mind is completely blown. Most of the stuff that they can say is true, having tested it, is stuff that I lose after 5 minutes of conversation.

I can talk about structural geology and the origins of the Earth intelligently, but these guys are on a whole 'nother level, with particles and shit I've never heard of.


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineAkira
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Re: Anyone who claims they understand quantum physics....... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #5216639 - 01/24/06 02:55 AM (18 years, 7 days ago)

They made this new DVD documentary about QM for the average Joe (the DVD actually has become quite popular) called "What the B*#P Do We Know." It's pretty good, it explains everything in laymen terms with a lot of example and metaphors that relate to common knowledge.

But yeah, the application of QM is quite a dilemma i was facing for a while. I believe in "Absolute truth", and to say their is no absolute is an absolute in itself, so yeah i was kinda stuck in that knot for a minute or two.


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Orissa India Bulk Grow (Tub Tek)
Bulk Steamer Pasteurizer Tek

"Our intention is our eternal fingerprint in the universe."

We know that God is good, and so are hamburgers and hot dogs. We know that hamburgers and hot dogs definitely do exist, so then by deduction of logic God too must also exist. Hamburgers + Hot dogs = God.... Duh


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Anyone who claims they understand quantum physics....... [Re: Akira]
    #5216666 - 01/24/06 03:16 AM (18 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

They made this new DVD documentary about QM for the average Joe (the DVD actually has become quite popular) called "What the B*#P Do We Know." It's pretty good, it explains everything in laymen terms with a lot of example and metaphors that relate to common knowledge.




That documentary is a recruiting film for a cult, nothing more. The experts that were interviewed were quoted out of context through clever editing as taught by the Michael Moore school of Misleading Journalism. The fantasy the documentary calls science is 100% bullshit. Anybody that watches the film will end up less intelligent for having done so... it is that painfully inaccurate.

Quantum Physics is counter intuitive. There are no good metaphors that relate it to common knowledge. That is one of the many reasons that it is so difficult to understand. (The insanely complex math needed to express Quantum is another.)


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineChuangTzu Happy Birthday!
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Re: Anyone who claims they understand quantum physics....... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #5216672 - 01/24/06 03:23 AM (18 years, 7 days ago)

There are at least two levels on which I can say for sure that nobody truly understands quantum mechanics.

The first is the "how" level. Nobody has the faintest clue what actually causes quantum events to occur when/where they do. The theory doesn't address this issue. The best anyone can do at the moment is to say that the question is meaningless or that there simply isn't a cause. Maybe that's true but nobody knows.

The second is on the level of the mathematics of the theory itself. The math is so complex that only a few very special situations can be solved exactly---no matter how smart you are or how many computers you have. New and unexpected predictions of the theory are discovered all the time.

I would say the situation is the opposite of what Nashbar said. We know how to apply the theory (even if it is usually technically difficult) but we don't know very much at all about the inner workings of the theory. Most of the stuff we do, we do it because "it works", i.e. it gives results which agree with experiment. The operators we use to coax meaningful values out of the equations are not defined by the theory itself. We have some idea of what an energy "should look like" and we go about constructing an operator which will give us something like that. We throw in an hbar for good measure and see what happens. If it doesn't agree with experiment we fuck around with it until it does. Nothing says though that this is THE energy operator. A lot of quantum mechanics is somewhat contrived like this (especially in the non-relativistic version).

Then again, if you think hard enough about the meaning of "understand", you find it difficult to think of any theory which is understood.

Perhaps though, professors say that "nobody truly understands quantum mechanics" as a teaching aid. You simply don't have and do not develop any sort of intuition for quantum mechanics until you've done it for years. About 1/3 of my QMI course was PhD students coming back to re-take the course after they'd spent half a decade pushing equations on their own---that just doesn't happen with any other area of physics. The smart-asses who think they "get it" before they even come into the class are setting themselves up for failure. The professors are also allaying a bit of frustration at the same time. I can tell you that nobody has a fucking clue what they are doing for the first year at least of studying QM. It's a bit reassuring to know that this is normal and OK.


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InvisibleKrishna
कृष्ण,LOL
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Re: Anyone who claims they understand quantum physics....... [Re: Seuss]
    #5217055 - 01/24/06 09:24 AM (18 years, 7 days ago)

could you give some examples of what you mean, seuss? i haven't seen the film, but have heard of it - i've done quite a lot of reading in the past along the vein of The Elegant Universe, the Tao of Physics, etc, and also studied physics up thru a basic mathematical understanding of quantum mechanics - and so usually find film an insufficient medium (compared to, say, mathematics) for explaining quantum 'reality'. but i've heard nothing but good about that film until your post..


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OfflineAkira
CosmicConsciousness
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Re: Anyone who claims they understand quantum physics....... [Re: Krishna]
    #5217631 - 01/24/06 12:27 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

^^OOOPsss. Now that mention the elegant universe, i realised that that one was the one i was thinking about. The other one is good too, but the Elegant Universe is much better.


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Orissa India Bulk Grow (Tub Tek)
Bulk Steamer Pasteurizer Tek

"Our intention is our eternal fingerprint in the universe."

We know that God is good, and so are hamburgers and hot dogs. We know that hamburgers and hot dogs definitely do exist, so then by deduction of logic God too must also exist. Hamburgers + Hot dogs = God.... Duh


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Offlinebit_slice
A. Renee

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 187
Loc: america, fuck yeah
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: Anyone who claims they understand quantum physics....... [Re: Seuss]
    #5218056 - 01/24/06 02:38 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
The experts that were interviewed were quoted out of context through clever editing as taught by the Michael Moore school of Misleading Journalism.




haha the Michael Moore school of Misleading Journalism  :dielaughing: :rofl2:  i will still check this movie out.  worst case scenario - i will lmao


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Anyone who claims they understand quantum physics....... [Re: Krishna]
    #5220906 - 01/25/06 07:46 AM (18 years, 6 days ago)

> could you give some examples of what you mean, seuss?

Here is a good review, easier to reference somebody else than to type if all up myself... http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2004/09/16/bleep/

Quote:

At least one scientist prominently interviewed in the film now says his words were taken out of context. And two other key subjects in the film are not fully identified: a theologian who, the film fails to divulge, is a former priest who left the Catholic Church after allegations of sexual abuse; and a mysterious woman identified only as Judy "JZ" Knight, who is actually a sect leader claiming to channel a 35,000-year-old warrior spirit named Ramtha. The film's three co-directors are among those who follow Ramtha and look to Knight's channeled maxims to decipher the mysteries of life. These Ramtha followers reportedly number in the thousands. But critics call the sect a cult.




Quote:

David Albert, a professor at the Columbia University physics department, has accused the filmmakers of warping his ideas to fit a spiritual agenda. "I don't think it's quite right to say I was 'tricked' into appearing," he said in a statement reposted by a critic on "What the Bleep's" Internet forum, "but it is certainly the case that I was edited in such a way as to completely suppress my actual views about the matters the movie discusses. I am, indeed, profoundly unsympathetic to attempts at linking quantum mechanics with consciousness. Moreover, I explained all that, at great length, on camera, to the producers of the film ... Had I known that I would have been so radically misrepresented in the movie, I would certainly not have agreed to be filmed."






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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Anyone who claims they understand quantum physics....... [Re: Seuss]
    #5221560 - 01/25/06 12:30 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Haha I think Ive seen that movie. Is that the one where at some point,there some girl and a kid playing basketball, and the kid throws the ball and it always goes in? I was back home for winter break when I saw that, and my mom and I were watching it, both laughing at how absurd the movie was.


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OfflineDarcho
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Re: Anyone who claims they understand quantum physics....... [Re: TheCow]
    #5223707 - 01/25/06 09:13 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

They aren't lying if they truly believe that they understand quantum physics. They would only be lying if they didn't believe they understood quantum physics, and yet told others that they did.


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