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InvisibleYoung_but_cool
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5194288 - 01/18/06 10:15 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Relating America to the Gestapo is unfounded, and frankly unintelligent.




Yeah, I agree. Relating CIA to KGB or Stasi is much more accurate. I love the cynism of creating a global gulag archipelago somewhat based on the old eastern european "infrastructure".


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5195551 - 01/18/06 06:32 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Quote:

Madtowntripper stated:

From your blind government trust and Fasistic viewpoint, your obviously a Republican. But your not concerned about Pakistan's Nukes being put into terrorist hands? You know if Musharraf is overthrown, an Islamic Goverment would likely be his replacement? Isnt it in your "Little Eichmann" handbook that you should scream "WMD!"'s at every opportunity? Or doesnt this apply to Non-Oil Rich Nations?





From your obvious attacks labeling someone, you must be from some disgruntled political party. I suggest you read your history when referring to Eichmann. Handling the logistical shipments of hundreds of thousands of Jews to their extermination, is no way historically relevant to a precision air strike, all be it misguided or not.

Relating America to the Gestapo is unfounded, and frankly unintelligent.




If this is the only thing that you find troublesome with my post, I'm willing to accept that.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineMisterMyco
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #5196583 - 01/18/06 10:45 PM (16 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
What? Welcome to 2006. The CIA does now, and has for YEARS had the capability of performing precision strikes with the Predator series of drone aircraft. Even the CIAdoesnt deny this.




Bombs and missiles aren't the same thing. I said that they didn't DROP BOMBS, and Predators do not. Nonetheless, this clearly wasn't done by the CIA, it was done by the military.
Quote:


Aww. Your total faith in your government is almost as touching as it naive.




Your disbelief of anything that the government says is absurdly illogical and juvenile. You should be out preaching on the corner about how Bush and bin-Laden were hanging out at their secret underground base when the US missiles blew up the Pentagon, or some other BS.
Quote:


I have no doubt that the government would lie to cover up a mistake.




So you go from "I think that they would" to "I believe that they have"? Pretty big leap. People like you are why I'm against a trial by jury of peers.
Quote:


Of course after we got caught bombing a sovereign nation we would claim we had intelligence.




So are you saying that we didn't have any intel? I'm totally confused? Do you think that the CIA bombed them (as you said they did) without intelligence? They just picked out a map, threw a dart and decided to blow up a village? Are you serious?
Quote:


I'm sorry, I have alot more faith in some tribal Muslims minding their own business than I do the Intelligence Arm of an Imperialistic state.




Perhaps you could demonstrate how you know that they were minding their own business? Ah, right, they said so. Well, if they can vouch for themselves, I'm satisfied. Why would Muslims lie? It isn't like the vast majority of terrorist attacks in the past fifteen years have been committed by the Muslims. I don't think we should even be in Afghanistan, I mean, the Taliban said that they were innocent, why jnot believe them? Lets pull any IAEA inspectors out of N. Korea as well, our government is simply lying about those peace-loving people over there. Heck, while we are at it, lets just make Iran pinky-swear that they won't use them against us and give them a few hundred ballistic missiles. The only people that told me that those people are threats are the US Government, and they've never been honest with me!
Quote:


This is debatable.



No, it's not. The president of Pakistan isn't saying that we attacked their country, we must have had clearance to do it. IT's not debatable in the least. If you so emphatically trust any Muslim, why don't you trust one that is on our side? Ah, thats right. BUSHOILOMFG NO BLOOD 4 OILZ!
Quote:

Lest you forget, many high-level Pakistani forces are saying they had no warning of the attack.




Source?
Quote:


Again, its "He Said-She Said". And I'm inclined not to believe a government which would do or say anything to further its agenda.




But a possible terrorist operating in Afghanistan, well heck, it's not like they have an agenda! What possible motive would they have for lying? Lets just believe them immediately.
Quote:


Suddenly, the burden of proof is on the Accused?




Have you suffered head injury recently? The burden of proof is on the ones who are trying to accuse someone. If you are accusing the United States of killing innocents and attacking a soverign nation, you should be able to offer some proof of it.
Quote:


Can you prove to me that YOU are not a terrorist? If not, you should be liable to having a Hellfire dropped on your bedroom. As soon as you show me how to prove a negative, I'll do it.




You prove the opposing positive? Example:

"Prove to me that you didn't steal a NASA space shuttle and visit the moon last night"

"Ok, sure. First of all, I was working at the time you specified. Numerous people saw me and my restaurant has cameras in the back that saw me leave. Secondly, NASA said that they had the space shuttle in their care and under constant guard, and they are fairly sure that they'd notice someone taking off. NORAD picked up no RADAR contacts from any NASA launch pads and nothing else indicates that anyone travelled to the moon last night. It's totally impossible that what you are claming that I did occured."

Your turn. I'll make it easier, especially if you've ever had a "Fill in the blank" test before...

me: "What evidence do you have that the US violated international soverignity to attack people that they had no intelligence information about whatsoever? Prove that these people weren't terrorists and that they are more credible sources than the United States Government."

You: "Sure! <insert name here> the leader of <insert name of violated country> issued a press release to be found at <insert URL> that stated his country was attacked by the United States. He's notified the UN as well <insert source here>. Also, <insert name of public, objective medical offical here> has identified the bodies beyond doubt as innocent farmers who were in no way complicit in terrorism or Al-Quada".

Could I be any more helpful?
Quote:

This attitude surprises me. From your blind government trust and Fasistic viewpoint, your obviously a Republican.




Your ability to draw logical connections astounds me.
Quote:


But your not concerned about Pakistan's Nukes being put into terrorist hands?



All three of them? I'm not that terribly concerned, no.
Quote:


You know if Musharraf is overthrown, an Islamic Goverment would likely be his replacement?




Yes, and instead of using the force or the hand of Allah or voodoo to launch the missiles at the US, resulting in their immediate destruction, they'd probably use them to support the anti-Hindi/Buddhist Muslims in India. Sorry for getting into politics that aren't simple "FUCK BUSH!", I realize I'm probably going out into waters too deep for you to follow.
Quote:

Isnt it in your "Little Eichmann" handbook that you should scream "WMD!"'s at every opportunity? Or doesnt this apply to Non-Oil Rich Nations?



http://www.nationbynation.com/Pakistan/Economy.html

Pakistan has extensive energy resources, including fairly sizable natural gas reserves, some proven oil reserves, coal, and large hydropower potential. However, the exploitation of energy resources has been slow due to a shortage of capital and domestic and international political constraints. For instance, domestic petroleum production totals only about half the country's oil needs, and dependence on imported oil also contributes to Pakistan's persistent trade deficits and shortage of foreign exchange. Regional gas and oil pipeline proposals remain untenable until Indo-Pakistan tensions subside sufficiently to allow free flow to the region. Pakistan announced that privatization in the oil and gas sector is a priority, as is the substitution of indigenous gas for imported oil, especially in the production of power. Saudi Arabia also supplies free oil to Pakistan.


Seems like we should be attacking Pakistan. Of course, if our wars were just about oil, why wouldn't we attack Canada?


--------------------
"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: MisterMyco]
    #5198955 - 01/19/06 03:41 PM (16 years, 7 days ago)

Your disbelief of anything that the government says is absurdly illogical and juvenile

On the contrary, it's a sensible and intelligent approach. Especially with someone as disregarding of the truth as Bush.

Of course, if our wars were just about oil, why wouldn't we attack Canada?

If you can't take even a third world country like Iraq after 12 years of sanctions and bombing then you ain't gonna take Canada


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: Alex213]
    #5198967 - 01/19/06 03:44 PM (16 years, 7 days ago)

yes, the reason the US does not go to war with canada over its oil is because we're afraid of losing. if they disbanded their military, we'd roll right up in there. for a brit, you're really on point with this stuff.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: wilshire]
    #5198973 - 01/19/06 03:47 PM (16 years, 7 days ago)

Lighten up. It's called humour.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: Alex213]
    #5198986 - 01/19/06 03:50 PM (16 years, 7 days ago)

:rofl2:


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: wilshire]
    #5199001 - 01/19/06 03:54 PM (16 years, 7 days ago)

Jeez. You honestly didn't realise it was a joke did you  :rolleyes:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: Alex213]
    #5199406 - 01/19/06 05:58 PM (16 years, 7 days ago)

There actually seems to have been a few terrorists uncreated.

Quote:

AP
Published: 19 January 2006

An al-Qa'ida explosives and chemical weapons expert and a relative of the terror network's No. 2 leader were among three top operatives believed killed in a US missile strike in Pakistan last week, Pakistani security officials said today.

Pakistani authorities have said at least four foreign militants were killed in last Friday's attack in Damadola village near the Afghan border that officials say targeted - but missed - al-Qa'ida No. 2 leader Ayman al-Zawahri.

A security official said three notable al-Qa'ida figures were in the village at the time of the attack and that their bodies were believed to have been taken away by sympathisers. He said one of them was Midhat Mursi, an Egyptian.

The US Justice Department cites Midhat Mursi al-Sayid Umar, also known as Abu Khabab al-Masri, as an explosives expert and poisons trainer who trained hundreds of mujahedeen at a terrorist camp in Afghanistan near the eastern city of Jalalabad.

The US agency has said that his exact whereabouts were unknown but that he may be residing in Pakistan, and offered 5 million dollars for information leading to his arrest.

The Pakistani official named two other foreigners as suspected killed in the missile strike: Abu Ubaida, an al-Qa'ida chief in Afghanistan's eastern Kunar province, across the border from the strike site; and Abdul Rehman al-Misri, a relative of al-Zawahri, possibly his son-in-law.

He stressed that their bodies have not been found.

"We do not have any evidence to prove that they have been killed, but we have indications that they were there and were among those bodies that were taken away," said the official. He refused to give further details.

A second Pakistani security official confirmed that agencies were investigating the three names as possible victims of the air strike, which officials say also killed 18 local people.

The Justice Department Web Site says that since 1999, Mursi has distributed training manuals with recipes for crude chemical and biological weapons. Some of these manuals were recovered by US forces in Afghanistan.

Pentagon officials said they had no information on the reported identities of the dead and CIA spokesman Tom Crispell said the agency could not comment.

Pakistani Interior Minister Aftab Sherpao said that the government does not know the identities of the foreigners believed killed in the missile strike.

"We are still investigating. There's a possibility that some foreigners were there, but we still do not know," said Sherpao, who was in New York with visiting Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz.

Sherpao said the government had not retrieved the bodies of any of the four foreign militants reported killed in the raid. He said the bodies may have been taken by a local pro-Taliban cleric, Maulana Faqir Mohammed, who also is being hunted by authorities.

Provincial authorities said sympathisers took the bodies of four or five foreign militants to bury them in the mountains near the Afghan border, thereby preventing their identification.

"Efforts are under way to investigate further," said Shah Zaman Khan, director-general of media relations for Pakistan's tribal areas bordering Afghanistan.

He said authorities were also looking for Faqir Mohammed and another prominent pro-Taliban cleric accused of harbouring militants. Both men were allegedly in Damadola and survived the assault.

Intelligence officials say al-Zawahri is thought to have sent some of his aides in his place to an Islamic holiday dinner to which he'd been invited in Damadola on the night of the attack.

Hours after the attack, an Associated Press reporter visited the village, which consists of a half-dozen widely scattered houses on a hillside four miles from the Afghan border.

Residents said then that all the dead were local people and that no one had taken any bodies away. However, it appeared feasible bodies or wounded could have been spirited away in the darkness after the attack, which took place about 3am.

Pakistan maintains it was not given advance word of the airstrike, reportedly carried out by unmanned Predator drones flying from Afghanistan, and has condemned it as killing innocent civilians.

Thousands have taken to the streets to protest the attack, denouncing the US and Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf, who ended Pakistan's support of the Taliban regime in late 2001 and has himself been targeted by al-Qa'ida attacks.

An al-Qa'ida explosives and chemical weapons expert and a relative of the terror network's No. 2 leader were among three top operatives believed killed in a US missile strike in Pakistan last week, Pakistani security officials said today.

Pakistani authorities have said at least four foreign militants were killed in last Friday's attack in Damadola village near the Afghan border that officials say targeted - but missed - al-Qa'ida No. 2 leader Ayman al-Zawahri.

A security official said three notable al-Qa'ida figures were in the village at the time of the attack and that their bodies were believed to have been taken away by sympathisers. He said one of them was Midhat Mursi, an Egyptian.

The US Justice Department cites Midhat Mursi al-Sayid Umar, also known as Abu Khabab al-Masri, as an explosives expert and poisons trainer who trained hundreds of mujahedeen at a terrorist camp in Afghanistan near the eastern city of Jalalabad.

The US agency has said that his exact whereabouts were unknown but that he may be residing in Pakistan, and offered 5 million dollars for information leading to his arrest.

The Pakistani official named two other foreigners as suspected killed in the missile strike: Abu Ubaida, an al-Qa'ida chief in Afghanistan's eastern Kunar province, across the border from the strike site; and Abdul Rehman al-Misri, a relative of al-Zawahri, possibly his son-in-law.




http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article339661.ece


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5199561 - 01/19/06 06:52 PM (16 years, 7 days ago)

The question is, were more destroyed then were created? Only an infinitesmally small percentage of those that expressed public outcry over these attacks would need to become terrorists for the attack to have been not only worthless but deleterious.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: Ancalagon]
    #5199628 - 01/19/06 07:14 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

I would argue that knocking out the top trainer and a chem weapon expert is at least equal to several hundred untrained splodeydopes, which qualification demands a level of insanity that probably doesn't interact much with real world events anyway. I sincerely doubt that this event pushed too many people over the tipping point into willing martyrdom or caused anybody to say to themselves, "You know, I used to think the US was OK but now I see that THEY ARE INFIDEL SPAWNS FROM SATAN." You, of course, can say otherwise. We'll probably never know.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5199652 - 01/19/06 07:24 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

"You know, I used to think the US was OK but now I see that THEY ARE INFIDEL SPAWNS FROM SATAN."



You're right about us never knowing -- as Donald Rumsfeld alluded to, one of the main problems with this entire war effort is that we simply do not have the metrics to measure ultimate success. I just want to address this one point, however. It wouldn't be a "you know, I used to think the US was OK but now I see that THEY ARE INFIDEL SPAWNS FROM SATAN" deal, almost definitely not. More likely than not it would be a "you know, I used to hate what the United States did but now they've killed my friend or my mother or my brother or they've violated the sovreignty of my nation, and so it's worth dying to do them harm." Hate to Extreme Hate rather than Ambivalence to Extreme Hate.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: Ancalagon]
    #5199719 - 01/19/06 07:43 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Hate to Extreme Hate rather than Ambivalence to Extreme Hate.




Yeah I know. I just doubt that this particular bit of hegemonic oppression put too many people over the edge, see my part about nutjobs and real world events. And if this is really one of the guys who got whacked, he was a very valuable slimeball.

There's also the matter of the supposedly "innocent" nebbish villagers mowed down by our missiles. They throw a dinner party for top AQ leaders and then spirit the bodies away and lie about them ever having been there. Something fishy about that.

I wouldn't be a damned bit surprised if the phony Newsweek story about Koranic toiletries had more effect than this, seeing as how these idiots revere a collection of ink and paper more than human life.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5210960 - 01/22/06 06:38 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
There actually seems to have been a few terrorists uncreated..





Oops. Sorry. Unless you have better evidence than the Pakistani Prime Minister, I guess you were wrong. Again. Although I'm sure you wont admit to it this time either.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/01/22/pakistan.attack/index.html

Quote:

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Pakistani Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz on Sunday ridiculed as "bizarre" a U.S. report that senior al Qaeda leaders were killed in a CIA attack on a home along the Pakistan-Afghanistan border.

"There is no evidence, as of half an hour ago, that there were any other people there," Aziz said on CNN's "Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer."

"The area does see movement of people from across the border. But we have not found one body or one shred of evidence that these people were there."

U.S. counterterrorism officials have said they believe the January 13 attack killed four to eight al Qaeda-affiliated "foreigners" attending a dinner meeting. Knowledgeable sources have said that their bodies were removed from the scene by comrades and buried elsewhere. (Full story)

Tens of thousands of Pakistanis have taken to the streets in cities nationwide to express outrage about the attack, which killed more than a dozen civilians, including women and children. (Full story)

Pakistani officials originally put the death toll at 18 civilians ( NICE JOB GUYS!); Aziz cited 13 deaths Sunday.




Edited by Madtowntripper (01/22/06 06:41 PM)


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #5212516 - 01/23/06 01:27 AM (16 years, 3 days ago)

America FUCK YA!


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #5214645 - 01/23/06 06:57 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Your reading comprehension skills still remain in question.

I said: "There actually seems to have been a few terrorists uncreated."

My link cited: "Pakistani authorities have said at least four foreign militants were killed in last Friday's attack in Damadola village near the Afghan border that officials say targeted - but missed - al-Qa'ida No. 2 leader Ayman al-Zawahri."

And: "The Pakistani official named two other foreigners as suspected killed in the missile strike: Abu Ubaida, an al-Qa'ida chief in Afghanistan's eastern Kunar province, across the border from the strike site; and Abdul Rehman al-Misri, a relative of al-Zawahri, possibly his son-in-law."

The article referenced is from a British source, not American, and the information cited is mostly from Pakistanis on the ground, not Americans.

From the tone of your response you seem to be pleased that AQ's top trainer and chemical weapons expert may still be above ground. Perhaps you should join him in his holy struggle. I look forward to seeing you fully announced on the other side.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #5214663 - 01/23/06 07:04 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

From your own link (do you even read them?)

"Second, we heard that al-Zawahiri was there," Aziz said. "Now we are hearing about this person who's a chemicals weapons expert. We don't know who was there. We don't know when they came, if at all. But, if they were there, we will find out because our people are investigating, they are going through all the evidence available, and once we find out we'll share it with the world."

Oh yeah, he sounds well briefed


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