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Offlinedaimyo
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Registered: 05/13/04
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Re: Hollywood Pushing Alternative Lifestyles [Re: Silversoul]
    #5212744 - 01/23/06 12:53 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Am I to assume, then, that you are a moral relativist?



Something like that.

Quote:

Paradigm said:
I personally happen to think that morals are not quite so dependent upon a person's view of them.



An absolutist?


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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

Registered: 05/13/04
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Re: Hollywood Pushing Alternative Lifestyles [Re: Silversoul]
    #5212762 - 01/23/06 01:01 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Prejudice like yours has no place in our modern society.



But yours does?

Quote:

Paradigm said:
It's time people wake up and realize that not everyone's the same, and that there's nothing wrong with that. Just because something grosses you out doesn't make it wrong.



I know we've danced to this tune before(few times), but I don't think it's wrong. I just think it's the opposite of what I consider decent. Not the actual acts themselves, but the propagation of them by media.
If a man wants to have sex with a man, that is between him and the lord. If a guy wants to have ten wives, good luck. But don't try to make it seem normal.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Hollywood Pushing Alternative Lifestyles [Re: daimyo]
    #5212783 - 01/23/06 01:08 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
Prejudice like yours has no place in our modern society.



But yours does?



Mine does not attempt to alienate people based on their lifestyle. My "prejudice" is only one of accepting the fact that people are different. Mine is based on inclusiveness, which is healthy for society. Yours is based on hatred and closemindedness, which are harmful to the fabric of a complex society such as ours. So yes, my "prejudice," if you wish to call it that, is quite compatible with the complexities of modern society, whereas your prejudices are relics of a time when people lived in small farming villages and burned witches.

Quote:

Quote:

Paradigm said:
It's time people wake up and realize that not everyone's the same, and that there's nothing wrong with that. Just because something grosses you out doesn't make it wrong.



I know we've danced to this tune before(few times), but I don't think it's wrong. I just think it's the opposite of what I consider decent. Not the actual acts themselves, but the propagation of them by media.
If a man wants to have sex with a man, that is between him and the lord. If a guy wants to have ten wives, good luck. But don't try to make it seem normal.



No one's saying it's normal. People are just saying that it is a part of our society, and we need to learn to deal with it. Besides, the type of people who watch this kind of stuff aren't likely to have attitudes like yours in the first place.


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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: Hollywood Pushing Alternative Lifestyles [Re: Silversoul]
    #5212817 - 01/23/06 01:23 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Mine does not attempt to alienate people based on their lifestyle.



I think habitually throwing the word bigot around to describe someone with opposing beliefs(founded through religion, upriging, or whatever) is an attack on a lifestyle. God-fearing, red state, heartland lifestyle. Majority lifestyle.

Quote:

Paradigm said:
My "prejudice" is only one of accepting the fact that people are different.



Everyone accepts that people are different. That's where the trouble starts. Two different contemptuous attituteds.

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Yours is based on hatred and closemindedness, which are harmful to the fabric of a complex society such as ours.



I totally disagree. I'd say it is the exact opposite. A lot of people I know are against these things out of fear for the people's souls. Surely none of anyone's business but the sinner when kept quiet. But when made public and promoted, it is of concern.

Quote:

Paradigm said:
So yes, my "prejudice," if you wish to call it that, is quite compatible with the complexities of modern society, whereas your prejudices are relics of a time when people lived in small farming villages and burned witches.



Not everyone is a big city liberal elitist. W didn't win twice because he looked good. He spoke of decency and that connected with America. The America made up of people that live in small towns, perhaps farming villages.

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Besides, the type of people who watch this kind of stuff aren't likely to have attitudes like yours in the first place.



When a family is sitting down to watch television they shouldn't have to worry about stumbling across MY BIG FAT GAY WEDDINGS at 8. Reserve that sleave for the late night.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Hollywood Pushing Alternative Lifestyles [Re: daimyo]
    #5212900 - 01/23/06 01:46 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
I think habitually throwing the word bigot around to describe someone with opposing beliefs(founded through religion, upriging, or whatever) is an attack on a lifestyle. God-fearing, red state, heartland lifestyle. Majority lifestyle.



Take it up with Webster's. Words have meaning, and the word "bigot" accurately describes one who has such intolerant beliefs.

Quote:

Everyone accepts that people are different. That's where the trouble starts. Two different contemptuous attituteds.



I'm afraid I don't follow. Why must two people who are different necessarily hold "contemptuous" attitudes towards one another?

Quote:

I totally disagree. I'd say it is the exact opposite. A lot of people I know are against these things out of fear for the people's souls. Surely none of anyone's business but the sinner when kept quiet. But when made public and promoted, it is of concern.



It is of no more concern than the promotion of such intolerant attitudes towards such lifestyles.

Quote:

Not everyone is a big city liberal elitist. W didn't win twice because he looked good. He spoke of decency and that connected with America. The America made up of people that live in small towns, perhaps farming villages.



Ok, I'll grant you that. But do you think that same segment of America are the ones watching this stuff from Hollywood that you're screaming bloody murder about? No. Hollywood is catering to a "liberal elitist" audience. If there's a lack of movies lately that cater to middle America, it's because Arnold Schwarzenegger is busy being governor of California.

Quote:

When a family is sitting down to watch television they shouldn't have to worry about stumbling across MY BIG FAT GAY WEDDINGS at 8. Reserve that sleave for the late night.



You know, there's this great thing called a remote control. If someone doesn't like what they're watching, they can actually change the channel. Imagine that!


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Hollywood Pushing Alternative Lifestyles [Re: Silversoul]
    #5212942 - 01/23/06 01:55 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

BTW, I don't see how it's "elitism" on the part of the liberals to want to include as many different lifestyles as possible. In fact, that sounds like the opposite of elitism.


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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

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Re: Hollywood Pushing Alternative Lifestyles [Re: Silversoul]
    #5212984 - 01/23/06 02:12 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Holding the view that you are morally superior is elitist. Both sides are guilty, but yours has a well known phrase that scores points with red state voters. Hell, since blues are so wanting to be a part of what's right(not elitism) it might work on some of them too.

As for the other points, I concede that for the time being it is up to parent to raise their children to be decent. Even if it means no TV. Until Hollywood is put in check, it's a free-for-all. Maybe we can set up a Colosseum battle between the queer eye guys and televangelists.

I bid you farewell.
On another note, it is time for bed. Didn't sleep last night, and it has caught up to me. I think tomorrow's subject will be the cultural divide in America.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Hollywood Pushing Alternative Lifestyles [Re: daimyo]
    #5214093 - 01/23/06 01:36 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

While modern media certainly influence culture and cultural debates like the one is this thread, it is also important to think of Hollywood as a barometer. They produce shows and stories with so called "alternative lifestyles" because people watch them. The notion of the "wholesome, traditional, morally decent one man one woman" family is just as much a part of the hollywood fantasy as are the fake lesbians on "The L word." Neither group has ever been real or ever will be, but they are both fantasies and ideals that passive viewers need to watch and believe in or get angry about. We are a culture that watches itself on TV but refuses to watch itself from within our own lives.


So maybe instead of wondering what hollywood is doing to promote lifestyles that you don't approve of, maybe you should wonder about the reality of the fact that our culture is evolving. And it isn't one group against another. There is a shift of the whole culture's interest. You expressing outrage and shock in this thread are just a much a part of that shift (if not more) than the actual "alternative" people themselves.

If you really didn't feel threatened by the idea of two men having sex, even if it were behind closed doors, you wouldn't have started this post. I don't see any other way of interpreting your words.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Hollywood Pushing Alternative Lifestyles [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5214119 - 01/23/06 01:49 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
The notion of the "wholesome, traditional, morally decent one man one woman" family is just as much a part of the hollywood fantasy as are the fake lesbians on "The L word."



To an extent I agree. Whatever happened to shows like The Brady Bunch, and All in the Family though? Where's the shows for decent folk?

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Neither group has ever been real or ever will be,



They are both real groups. We wouldn't be having this conversation if they weren't real.

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
So maybe instead of wondering what hollywood is doing to promote lifestyles that you don't approve of, maybe you should wonder about the reality of the fact that our culture is evolving.



Or devolving.

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
And it isn't one group against another. There is a shift of the whole culture's interest.



Maybe it's cyclic. Rome had their times of excess where queers roamed freely to copulate with young boys, and orgies were common place. Maybe we have to hit the bottom again to climb back to the top.

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
If you really didn't feel threatened by the idea of two men having sex, even if it were behind closed doors, you wouldn't have started this post. I don't see any other way of interpreting your words.



I already said they can do as they please. Doesn't bother me. I don't like it being promoted as normal and/or decent though.

Also, another reason to start this post may be to rile people up and have some debate.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Hollywood Pushing Alternative Lifestyles [Re: daimyo]
    #5214182 - 01/23/06 02:20 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
Quote:

gluke bastid said:
The notion of the "wholesome, traditional, morally decent one man one woman" family is just as much a part of the hollywood fantasy as are the fake lesbians on "The L word."



To an extent I agree. Whatever happened to shows like The Brady Bunch, and All in the Family though? Where's the shows for decent folk?




Would you watch the Brady Bunch if it were still on? Somehow I doubt it would capture your interest. But i mean this isn't about you, its about the fact that it would fail to capture most people's interest and they wouldn't watch it.
And how does watching the Brady Bunch make you decent, I don't understand...

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Neither group has ever been real or ever will be,



Quote:

daimyo said:
They are both real groups. We wouldn't be having this conversation if they weren't real.




Show me where and when the perfect family existed. I've never encountered a single example. All I've encountered are people and books and television shows that believe the great american family once existed.
They are, just like Zeus, myths. Ask an ancient greek if Zeus existed and he would say "of course." This is because his whole mode of thinking is based around his belief in the myth of zeus and the other Gods. Myths are real, but their content isn't.

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
So maybe instead of wondering what hollywood is doing to promote lifestyles that you don't approve of, maybe you should wonder about the reality of the fact that our culture is evolving.



Quote:

daimyo said:
Or devolving.




Or changing, if you prefer.

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
And it isn't one group against another. There is a shift of the whole culture's interest.



Quote:

daimyo said:
Maybe it's cyclic. Rome had their times of excess where queers roamed freely to copulate with young boys, and orgies were common place. Maybe we have to hit the bottom again to climb back to the top.




Saying that public acceptance of homosexuality was the cause of the fall of Rome...you are being deliberately naive. Why would you do that to yourself? Have you really managed to convince yourself that history will prove that homosexuality topples empires? Are you comfortable with such over-simplifications? To bring it back to Greece...how do you explain that Grecian society accepted homosexuality and flourished for centuries, only to ultimately be conquered by Rome?


Quote:

gluke bastid said:
If you really didn't feel threatened by the idea of two men having sex, even if it were behind closed doors, you wouldn't have started this post. I don't see any other way of interpreting your words.



Quote:

daimyo said:
I already said they can do as they please. Doesn't bother me. I don't like it being promoted as normal and/or decent though.





So anytime homosexuality is depicted in the media you see it as being promoted as normal and decent, and that offends you. You just want it to be completely hidden from view. Asking someone to hide themselves behind doors is an act of condemning them. It is persecution.
If you are going to accept the fact that we are living in a media saturated environment, you are going to have to accept that the media is going to portray things you don't like. You can either switch off the television and go have a real life, or you can move to a country like Cuba where The State decides what people watch and what is in the interest of the status quo. Cuba has been persecuting homosexuality for decades in the name of protecting decent values, but I think you'll find they are closer to Rome's collapse than we are.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Hollywood Pushing Alternative Lifestyles [Re: daimyo]
    #5214246 - 01/23/06 02:45 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I don't find anything wrong with "alternative lifestyles" or the vulgarity of various shows. These are shows for adults, not children. If you can't handle watching it, change the channel or turn off your tv.

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OfflineMicrocosmatrix
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Re: Hollywood Pushing Alternative Lifestyles [Re: Redstorm]
    #5214263 - 01/23/06 02:53 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Kind of like OTD, I agree


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Hollywood Pushing Alternative Lifestyles [Re: Microcosmatrix]
    #5214265 - 01/23/06 02:53 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

:thumbup:

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Invisiblemycogirl
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Re: Hollywood Pushing Alternative Lifestyles [Re: Redstorm]
    #5214304 - 01/23/06 03:11 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

So am I to assume that two really hot chicks making out or having sex is just as morally offensive (TO YOU) as two men?

And for the record, the Queer dollar is HUGE! Gay people spend a lot of money. Television, especially premium channels are catering to the public, to the people spending money on their products, and financing them. I am sorry you are so closed minded man, but its not an all out attack on morals.

Its representing REALITY! people really ARE gay, and not just to piss christians off. Just because.


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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

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Re: Hollywood Pushing Alternative Lifestyles [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5215520 - 01/23/06 08:35 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Would you watch the Brady Bunch if it were still on?



Probably. Still watch All in the Family whenever I can.

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
this isn't about you, its about the fact that it would fail to capture most people's interest and they wouldn't watch it.



I disagree. There are lots of people that long for good wholesome family life to return.

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
And how does watching the Brady Bunch make you decent, I don't understand



It doesn't make you decent, it's a show for decent people.

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Show me where and when the perfect family existed.



If you are ever here I will be proud to introduce you to several such families. Not everyone raises their children to do drugs and tune out or become sexual deviants.

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
I've never encountered a single example.



Ever encounter a 100g gold bar? They exist.

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Saying that public acceptance of homosexuality was the cause of the fall of Rome...you are being deliberately naive.



I said no such thing and you know it. I was referencing the moral decline and linking it to the fall of Rome. When people accept that there are no limits on what is to be decent, bad things happen. And in today's world, where AIDS is a problem, it is all the more serious.

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
how do you explain that Grecian society accepted homosexuality and flourished for centuries, only to ultimately be conquered by Rome?



They accepted homosexuality, and were captured. Straight to my point.

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
You can either switch off the television and go have a real life, or you can move to a country like Cuba



Too risky to visit Cuba. I don't want to get fined or end up in jail.

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Cuba has been persecuting homosexuality for decades in the name of protecting decent values, but I think you'll find they are closer to Rome's collapse than we are.



Their status has more to do with the embargo than it does decency monitoring.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Hollywood Pushing Alternative Lifestyles [Re: mycogirl]
    #5215551 - 01/23/06 08:47 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mycogirl said:
So am I to assume that two really hot chicks making out or having sex is just as morally offensive (TO YOU) as two men?



Nope. Just the guys.

Quote:

mycogirl said:
And for the record, the Queer dollar is HUGE! Gay people spend a lot of money. Television, especially premium channels are catering to the public, to the people spending money on their products, and financing them.



It's not enough to promote sin, they have to promote frivilous spending as well. Stand up people.

Quote:

mycogirl said:
I am sorry you are so closed minded man, but its not an all out attack on morals.



Apology accepted. But how can you state it's not an attack on morals? It may not be an attack on your morals, but it is an attack on others.

Quote:

mycogirl said:
Its representing REALITY! people really ARE gay, and not just to piss christians off.



It's not just Christians. Islam and Judaism also do not accpet homosexuality. Don't be so narrow.


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Invisiblemycogirl
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RE: Hollywood Pushing Alternative Lifestyles [Re: daimyo]
    #5215557 - 01/23/06 08:49 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

AIDS has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality.

And, there is a lot of different shit on TV so everyone can park their equally fat asses in front of it. That's why there's kids shows, religous shows, intrest shows, drama, action...


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Hollywood Pushing Alternative Lifestyles [Re: daimyo]
    #5215559 - 01/23/06 08:50 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"The penchant for sodomy is the result of physical formation, to which we contribute nothing and which we cannot alter. At the most tender age, some children reveal that penchant, and it is never corrected in them. Sometimes it is the fruit of satiety; but even in this case, is it less Nature's doing? Regardless of how it is viewed, it is her work, and, in every instance, what she inspires must be respected by men. If, were one to take an exact inventory, it should come out that this taste is infinitely more affecting than the other, that the pleasures resulting from it are far more lively, and that for this reason its exponents are a thousand times more numerous than its enemies, would it not then be possible to conclude that, far from affronting Nature, this vice serves her intentions, and that she is less delighted by our procreation than we so foolishly believe? Why, as we travel about the world, how many peoples do we not see holding women in contempt! Many are the men who strictly avoid employing them for anything but the having of the child necessary to replace them. The communal aspect of life in republics always renders this vice more frequent in that form of society; but it is not dangerous. Would the Greek legislators have introduced it into their republics had they thought it so? Quite the contrary; they deemed it necessary to a warlike race. Plutarch speaks with enthusiasm of the battallion of lovers: for many a year they alone defended Greece's freedom. The vice reigned amongst comrades-in-arms, and cemented their unity. The greatest of men lean toward sodomy." --The Marquis de Sade, Yet Another Effort Frenchmen, If You Would Become Republicans

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Hollywood Pushing Alternative Lifestyles [Re: daimyo]
    #5215581 - 01/23/06 08:55 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

They accepted homosexuality, and were captured. Straight to my point.




I hope you are more intelligent than to attempt to show any causality between accepted homosexuality and the fall of Athens.

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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: RE: Hollywood Pushing Alternative Lifestyles [Re: mycogirl]
    #5215643 - 01/23/06 09:10 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mycogirl said:
AIDS has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality.



Not according to the homosexuals.

Source
Quote:

"Gay, Bisexual, and other men who have sex with men must act against the behaviors and attitudes responsible for the increased spread of these diseases. Today, one in seven Gay, Bisexual, and other men who have sex with men are infected with HIV. Among Gay men in King County, syphilis rates are 100 times higher than in the general heterosexual population, and are estimated to be 1000 times higher among HIV positive Gay men than among the general heterosexual population. These rates show we have stopped doing the things that protect us and our sex partners from needless infection."




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