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Invisibleredgreenvines
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cognitive liberty
    #5195625 - 01/18/06 04:49 PM (18 years, 13 days ago)

this is about being free to think and experience according to one's own inclination, no?

i.e.
what if your country wants you to experience something you are disinclined toward, and does not want you to experience what you want.
and
what if your parent wants you to experience something you are disinclined toward, and does not want you to experience what you want.

who should be entitled to what liberty and when?
who should stand up for the rights of others?


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: cognitive liberty [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5195793 - 01/18/06 05:27 PM (18 years, 13 days ago)

I don't think it's a matter of who should but what is. Things are the way they are. Not much to be done but choose how you will react. That is the only freedom you have in the moment. Everything else is a crap shoot.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: cognitive liberty [Re: Icelander]
    #5196313 - 01/18/06 07:44 PM (18 years, 13 days ago)

But we are one will, one being, and we must be free together... Independently, AND dependently on each other...


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: cognitive liberty [Re: dr0mni]
    #5196459 - 01/18/06 08:16 PM (18 years, 13 days ago)

Everyone is already free. Most don't know.  :shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: cognitive liberty [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5196461 - 01/18/06 08:16 PM (18 years, 13 days ago)

I agree 100% Everyone should have the right to their own thoughts and decisions. This is the core of being self responsible. I like discussing responsibility because it keeps it foremost in my mind in everyday life.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinelancifer
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Re: cognitive liberty [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5200921 - 01/19/06 11:01 PM (18 years, 12 days ago)

What is 'self responsible"? How does one come up with the very idea of being responsible for one's self if they have never experienced self-responsibility? Is this an ingrained trait? A built in trait, or a learned trait? this is a trick question.
What is 'one's thought's"...where did they issue forth hence from? One's thought's...what an idea, who gave it to to you to claim as one's owns? For if it was your own thought I'd never had heard of it before. But I have, its's old. Hence it's NOt your thought so who's is it?
Responsibility?
* Responsibility is taking care of your duties.
* Responsibility is answering for your actions.
* Responsibility is accountability.
* Responsibility is trustworthiness.
(Dictionary)
So how in this format will anyone ever have a 'free and open experience'? Who embedded the idea in the first place?
Who will pick you up if you fail in your quest?
Who will be your 'word made manifest' if you fuck up?
Who will look after you when you've made a mess?

There is freedom in being gifted an opportunity to express ones self.
There is freedom in learning how to learn, there is no freedom in thinking it so. The very act negates it.


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A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth glancing at. O.Wilde


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Offlinelancifer
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Re: cognitive liberty [Re: Icelander]
    #5200966 - 01/19/06 11:08 PM (18 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Everyone is already free. Most don't know.  :shrug:




How 'New Age' of you!  Sure on the basic level we are all free...whoopdee-doo.  How does that help anyone or more pertinently, how do you utilize your freedom?  Freedom is useless without an 'opt out' to actually live free.
If you, or I, don't take the freedom offered, and we go on living day to day gibberish in an ever increasing Nazi world...does our freedom mean anything? No.  It does not.  We have to claw our way to freedom.
We have to go to extremes to stick the flag of free selfhood into the terrain of tomorrow and die trying if need be.  Simply claiming freedom will get you nowhere.  It's as old as time.
lancifer


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A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth glancing at. O.Wilde


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Offlinelancifer
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Re: cognitive liberty [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5201007 - 01/19/06 11:17 PM (18 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
this is about being free to think and experience according to one's own inclination, no?

i.e.
what if your country wants you to experience something you are disinclined toward, and does not want you to experience what you want.
and
what if your parent wants you to experience something you are disinclined toward, and does not want you to experience what you want.

who should be entitled to what liberty and when?
who should stand up for the rights of others?




Country? Parents? Peer group?
Rights? Ha!
parents and country and peer group...oh my!
You must have the Will to make your own path, that being said yoiui must have the Will to be able to realize you even have the Will to actualiaze your own Path. But having your won Path means you've been set upon a Path or you would be too dull to realize there even is a Path.
WTF is an inclination? "a bend or tilt:" ie, erupting from within rather than a Willed effort. Something that happens spontaneously.
This is not a Willed act IMO. It is a blind hope for something better happening later, maybe.
lancifer


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A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth glancing at. O.Wilde


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Offlinelancifer
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Re: cognitive liberty [Re: lancifer]
    #5201028 - 01/19/06 11:20 PM (18 years, 12 days ago)

"who should be entitled to what liberty and when?"

All, and I mean it, should have full liberty whenever they so Will it.
lancifer
fungal nazi's? I would have thought, in my experience that most shroom eaters would know this. Wow! people eat fungi and stay stupid? I'm glad I live at the edge of the world where all seem sane and freedom is an act of becoming.


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A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth glancing at. O.Wilde


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: cognitive liberty [Re: lancifer]
    #5201610 - 01/20/06 04:17 AM (18 years, 12 days ago)

lots of anger
conitive anger


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: cognitive liberty [Re: lancifer]
    #5201648 - 01/20/06 04:47 AM (18 years, 12 days ago)

"What is 'self responsible"? How does one come up with the very idea of being responsible for one's self if they have never experienced self-responsibility?"

Self responsibility is learned. It is not about obligations to others, but obligations to the self. I do not discuss the responsibility implied by society...which is nearly non-existant anyway. I speak of being true to the self and being true to others in relation to the self. It is the core of self love and forgiveness. Without it a human is a boat without a rudder.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: cognitive liberty [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5202391 - 01/20/06 11:06 AM (18 years, 12 days ago)

I took up this issue at another salvia site I frequent and discussed it with a member there from Argentina.

his spelling is different from mine.
his understanding of circumcision is different
and his openness to other cultures is more enlightened than mine.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SalviaD_Alliance/message/19778

is there really an international children's legal standard?


--------------------
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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: cognitive liberty [Re: lancifer]
    #5202463 - 01/20/06 11:41 AM (18 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

lancifer said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Everyone is already free. Most don't know.  :shrug:




How 'New Age' of you!  Sure on the basic level we are all free...whoopdee-doo.  How does that help anyone or more pertinently, how do you utilize your freedom?  Freedom is useless without an 'opt out' to actually live free.
If you, or I, don't take the freedom offered, and we go on living day to day gibberish in an ever increasing Nazi world...does our freedom mean anything? No.  It does not.  We have to claw our way to freedom.
We have to go to extremes to stick the flag of free selfhood into the terrain of tomorrow and die trying if need be.  Simply claiming freedom will get you nowhere.  It's as old as time.
lancifer




Me thinks you misunderstand. I don't often get accused around her of being New Age.

I myself am no longer concerned with the freedom you speak of. I am not out to help anyone in this way. I have come to my own conclusions after years of being and not being involved in the politics ( all of them) of the culture.

The Tao prevails. In the end I am dead no matter what I strive to do and that is the answer to all my questions.

No one lives free.

We are all products of the culture we are born into. Freedom lives in a book, in a jail, in a gale, in a white free protestant malestrom.

We are not free, except on that "basic level". The Nazi world is temporary and is as important and unimportant as anything else.

What I think is important and a relative freedom is self acceptance as one is and not as one should be.

The world is full of phantoms (sleeping sheepies) and I haven't seen any change at all now or in the history books. It's sort of a condition of existence in this here dream.

I do not seek to change things outside of myself ultimately. I choose to believe in certain things because that floats my boat and that is all.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineGomp
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Re: cognitive liberty [Re: Icelander]
    #5202832 - 01/20/06 01:44 PM (18 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Everyone is already free. Most don't know.  :shrug:




yeah..
being free is the base.. :P

we are even free, to be bound! ...

:grin: :thumbup:


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: cognitive liberty [Re: Icelander]
    #5203724 - 01/20/06 05:20 PM (18 years, 11 days ago)

Freedom is a concious decision. It cannot be conferred. If one has to be taught how to use it then it is meaningless...one should seek that answer or it will not have value.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisiblejustamonkey
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Re: cognitive liberty [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5205687 - 01/21/06 05:56 AM (18 years, 11 days ago)

It's okay, I understand you Icelander. Freedom is absolute, and blaming others for not doing is the reason that 'oppression' exists. Hitler for instance, was a nutjob. He was crazy from square one, but no one had the guts to just shoot him and go back to small daily problems and living a truly free life, because he had it ingrained in their little minds that the only way to be free is to control. When has restricting others ever truly granted somone any more freedom than they already had?

Freedom is the ability to choose. We can all choose, but our situations are not all equal because we are not the same person, you and I or anyone else. Therefore, to compare your 'freedoms' to mine are both erronous and irresponsible. If you choose to fight so that you can do a certain action without penalty of law, that is your freedom. It is also your freedom to do the thing anyway and die. Better circumstances are not better freedoms. The world is not fair, and it is selfish and irresponsible to think that it ever will be. I do believe that oppression is wrong, and that it should be fought against. I do not believe in the concept of 'fair' and think that it is just a lie we tell ourselves to make ourselves feel more justified in blaming others for our situation.


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[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: cognitive liberty [Re: justamonkey]
    #5205720 - 01/21/06 06:50 AM (18 years, 11 days ago)

this approaches the core nicely and diplomatically
it can be used to leverage ecological arguments with corporations and interpersonal limits and freedoms as well.


--------------------
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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: cognitive liberty [Re: justamonkey]
    #5205839 - 01/21/06 08:29 AM (18 years, 11 days ago)

:smile:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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