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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Irrational Skepticism
    #5186381 - 01/16/06 11:14 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

"We know that we know nothing," they chatter, blanking out the fact that they are claiming knowledge -- "There are no absolutes," they chatter, blanking out the fact that they are uttering an absolute -- "You cannot prove that you exist or that you're conscious," they chatter, blanking out the fact that proof presupposes existence, consciousness and a complex chain of knowledge: the existence of something to know, or a consciousness able to know it, and of a knowledge that has learned to distinguish between such concepts as the proved and the unproved.
Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged




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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Irrational Skepticism [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5186514 - 01/16/06 12:22 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

What came first.... the chicken, the egg, or the ability to distinguish between the two?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Irrational Skepticism [Re: Sclorch]
    #5186579 - 01/16/06 12:47 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

this is not about Plato's Middle Period "Metaphysics and Epistemology" then?


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Irrational Skepticism [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5186895 - 01/16/06 02:28 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

"All western philosophy consists of footnotes to Plato."
-Alfred North Whitehead


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Irrational Skepticism [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5186953 - 01/16/06 02:55 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

As 'nothing' is defined as 'absence of' - and is undefined as 'possibility of', you can know that it exists, but not out of what it consists of.

(for example)


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Irrational Skepticism [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5188074 - 01/16/06 07:45 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I perfer irrational skepticism to rational dogmatism.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Irrational Skepticism [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5188186 - 01/16/06 08:04 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I think I do to mush.

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineTheGus
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Re: Irrational Skepticism [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5188560 - 01/16/06 09:37 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

im here, now, and thats what i know for sure, everything else is just icing on the cake

sometimes the icing tastes better than others

time pisses me off somewhat, it seems to ilude us to all that is, but i dont know how much else is outside of time, i have yet to get that far :frown:


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"It is easier to teach a computer to play chess than to build a mudpie."Sherry Turkle Life on the Screen: Identity in the Age of the Internet
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts"-Einstein
:mrt: I pity the fool who break traffic laws with $870,000 of drugs in the car.      -mo0nlite_sonata
Psythos


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Irrational Skepticism [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5189648 - 01/17/06 03:15 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
"There are no absolutes," they chatter, blanking out the fact that they are uttering an absolute




That means that you cant possibly say that nothing is 100% because that would be a contradiction of itself. Hah! What a paradox.


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Irrational Skepticism [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5189661 - 01/17/06 03:19 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I believe that to be fully critical you should not reject one and accept another, but be able to discern difference.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Irrational Skepticism [Re: Fospher]
    #5189749 - 01/17/06 03:47 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
I believe that to be fully critical you should not reject one and accept another, but be able to discern difference.




AWESOME! :cool: It definitely pays better to understand all sides and discern the differences as opposed to determining one being right and one being wrong.  :thumbup:

Each side may have its own practical application within the context it is being presented and the other may come in handy at some point.

I think people who live by preferences over rights and wrongs do that.

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Irrational Skepticism [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5189860 - 01/17/06 04:27 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

With eclepticism you're not throwing away one tool to use another, but using a specific one for the time being and putting the other away for another case. It doesnt mean keeping and accepting everything.

If the case never arises or does not seem prominent for use, put all that shit in a bag and take out the trash.  :thumbup:


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Irrational Skepticism [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5190481 - 01/17/06 11:54 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

You cannot prove that you exist or that you're conscious

'i do not really exist' or 'my existence is an illusion' are statements usually made by someone who misunderstood something they read from eastern philosophy texts. come on. doesn't anyone actually believe they don't exist? it's so phony when people say that.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Irrational Skepticism [Re: wilshire]
    #5190560 - 01/17/06 12:29 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
'i do not really exist' or 'my existence is an illusion' are statements usually made by someone who misunderstood something they read from eastern philosophy texts.




Oh really? Is there consensus on this statement? Any studies? Or is it a vauge statement concerning some generality coupled with a brazen assumption? Such statements are useless and do not convey any representation of reality unless you validate the statement with some evidence, perhaps some examples where people have said this, and some demonstrations of how it is that they misunderstood readings of eastern philosophy texts.

Quote:


come on. doesn't anyone actually believe they don't exist? it's so phony when people say that.




You say that people who make such statements are resulting from a misunderstanding of some concept, but I think it is equally plausible that you yourself are misunderstood, as you have taken the quotation "you cannot prove that you are conscious" and associated it as being the same as saying that one believes one does not exist.

There is a wide degree of difference between claiming that one cannot prove that one exists and that one believes that one does not exist.

What does the statement "existance is an illusion" mean to you? What do you think is implied when people use that statement? I sincerely hope you have some concept of at least what you perceive them as meaning, so we can discourse with some actual, philosophical discussion here.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Irrational Skepticism [Re: wilshire]
    #5191120 - 01/17/06 03:37 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
You cannot prove that you exist or that you're conscious

'i do not really exist' or 'my existence is an illusion' are statements usually made by someone who misunderstood something they read from eastern philosophy texts. come on. doesn't anyone actually believe they don't exist? it's so phony when people say that.




Yeah I agree.

Those who claim they do not exist are simply trying to confuse the issue. If someone doesn't exist, that's fine, but a nonexistent person should not have anything to say. :smirk:


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Irrational Skepticism [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5191397 - 01/17/06 04:50 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Oh really? Is there consensus on this statement? Any studies?

it's coming from my personal experience. people who claim to be non-existent usually have no idea what they are talking about... they're usually trying to hard to adhere to a philosophy they don't understand and don't honestly believe.

you have taken the quotation "you cannot prove that you are conscious" and associated it as being the same as saying that one believes one does not exist.

the original post also referred to existence.

What does the statement "existance is an illusion" mean to you?

it means exactly what it says, and it's probably one of the most easily disproven ideas in all of philosophy.

What do you think is implied when people use that statement?


phony intellectual posturing.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Re: Irrational Skepticism [Re: shroomydan]
    #5191407 - 01/17/06 04:53 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shroomydan said:
Quote:

wilshire said:
You cannot prove that you exist or that you're conscious

'i do not really exist' or 'my existence is an illusion' are statements usually made by someone who misunderstood something they read from eastern philosophy texts. come on. doesn't anyone actually believe they don't exist? it's so phony when people say that.




Yeah I agree.

Those who claim they do not exist are simply trying to confuse the issue. If someone doesn't exist, that's fine, but a nonexistent person should not have anything to say. :smirk:




Yup, Thats why I said, I think the issue is more one of, how is it that we exist think/know/experience ourselves to exist and in what way shape or form.

It is probably the greatest philosophical quandry of all time.

Like how an unconscious person doesn't know they exist, but they do. What nature of existance are we even refering to? Physical? Consciousness? Spiritual? Spirit conscious in physical matter? Physical matter conscious of itself as physical matter? Physical matter conscious of itself as spirit expressing itself through matter? And what if there are infinite more options, no one has yet concieved of? Some have the idea we are a part of a some virtual computer program.

This one can go on forever.....................Maybe thats why some throw in the towel and say "nothing does", and then, they go about their existance.:lol:

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Irrational Skepticism [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5191416 - 01/17/06 04:54 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Like how an unconscious person doesn't know they exist, but they do.

are you sure about that?


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Re: Irrational Skepticism [Re: wilshire]
    #5191532 - 01/17/06 05:25 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

:lol: I'm pretty sure that a biological body is functioning anyway while its unconscious baed on the subjective perspective and observation of a modern day human being.

You had me wondering what the philosophical criteria is for existence to even be determined.

Anyone know?

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Irrational Skepticism [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5191578 - 01/17/06 05:36 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

The gold standard is still "cogito ergo sum."

Even an unconscious person has brain activity, and therefore exists.

In the case of a dead person, with no brain activity, their body still exists, but they have ceased to exist as themself.


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