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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Redstorm]
    #5131140 - 01/02/06 03:09 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)



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OfflinePhred
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #5132411 - 01/02/06 08:30 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Falcon91Wolvrn03 writes:

Quote:

"There is one relevant constitutional provision that acts as a restraint on the President's inherent power as Commander in Chief. That is the Fourth Amendment..."




Yes, I know that. As has been pointed out (in this thread and in the other) the key word in the amendment is "unreasonable". Good luck convincing anyone that listening in to the conversations of the enemy in time of war qualifies as "unreasonable" -- especially if the enemy is talking to someone located in the US.

Quote:

You provided not one example of a case in which domestic searches without a warrant was considered legal.




You disappoint me. The article from which I excerpted had links to examples of the over a dozen instances where warrantless searches have been upheld. I had suggested in my post that people not be satisfied with my excerpts, but instead go to the link itself and read the whole thing -- including following up the embedded links. Apparently you chose not to do so.

Quote:

No one has an issue when a warrant was obtained.




And no one -- The NYT included -- has provided a single instance of the NSA listening to a conversation where one of the participants was a US person located within the US where a warrant was not obtained. Instead, it is insinuated that this was the case.

That's my whole point -- no one -- not even the NYT, who had an entire year to investigate this thoroughly while they were dithering over when would be the absolute best time to release the story in order to cause the maximum possible trouble for the administration -- has shown the NSA broke any law, whether that law stands the test of constitutionality or not (and clearly a "law" attempting to limit wartime powers of the Executive branch in such a fashion cannot stand up to that constitutional test). Obviously, those 5400 warrants issued through FISA since 2002 were issued in cases where one of the participants met the definition of "US person". What makes you assume there were more than 5400 cases involving "US persons"? Certainly not anything yet published by the NY Times or the Washington Post.

Quote:

It's been sliced and diced twice now.




Sorry, I must have not made myself clear. The "slice and dice" refers to lame attempts to pretend the disclosure of classified information harmful to national security in a time of war is legal. Clearly such disclosure is illegal. Whoever leaked that info broke the law and faces serious prison time.




Phred


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Catalysis]
    #5134025 - 01/03/06 05:02 AM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Catalysis said:
First of all, any legal scholar will tell you that the legality of this is unclear



Well, maybe not any...

Conservative Scholars Argue Bush?s Wiretapping Is An Impeachable Offense


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Phred]
    #5134035 - 01/03/06 05:18 AM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
As has been pointed out (in this thread and in the other) the key word in the (fourth) amendment is "unreasonable".



The key point is in the second part of the amendment which states that warrants are not to be issued without probable cause. Avoiding a warrant altogether? Suuuuure, that must be ok.

Quote:

You disappoint me. The article from which I excerpted had links to examples of the over a dozen instances where warrantless searches have been upheld.



I've discussed this as well; warrantless examples were given for foreign spying. No example of domestic spying.

Quote:

And no one -- The NYT included -- has provided a single instance of the NSA listening to a conversation where one of the participants was a US person located within the US where a warrant was not obtained. Instead, it is insinuated that this was the case.



If only Bush were smart enough to use this defense... I wonder why he hasn't???

Quote:

The "slice and dice" refers to lame attempts to pretend the disclosure of classified information harmful to national security in a time of war is legal. Clearly such disclosure is illegal. Whoever leaked that info broke the law and faces serious prison time.



I guess it's time to agree to disagree. We'll see how this story unfolds... Can a president do anything he wants in the interest of national security? To be determined...


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #5157279 - 01/09/06 04:14 AM (16 years, 13 days ago)



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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Phred]
    #5164285 - 01/10/06 09:44 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Ok, I was going to respond to Phred's not responding in the thread he referrenced, but I need to see something here...


Quote:

By Phred
And no one -- The NYT included -- has provided a single instance of the NSA listening to a conversation where one of the participants was a US person located within the US where a warrant was not obtained. Instead, it is insinuated that this was the case.





I'm rather confused by this statement. I thought Bush had admitted the spying took place? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by it insinuated that it was the case... Everything I've read suggests that this is the case, and this is what is on the table. Where did you read anything different?

Even the non-partisan group Congressional Research Service concluded that the president's defense didn't hold legal grounds (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.nsa07jan07,1,1192489.story?coll=bal-nationworld-headlines). This was even submitted to Congress.


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The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.



Edited by Twirling (01/10/06 10:02 PM)


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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Twirling]
    #5164407 - 01/10/06 10:13 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

And here is why, Phred, your quote is so confusing. From an ABC News story:

"President Bush has admitted that he gave orders that allowed the NSA to eavesdrop on a small number of Americans without the usual requisite warrants."

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1491889&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Twirling]
    #5164436 - 01/10/06 10:21 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Sorry, but I'm going to need to see Bush's actual statement on that, not some staff writer's misinterpretation of what he believes Bush has said. We've been around that mulberry bush enough times already with such classics as "imminent threat". Show me Bush's actual statement. Or show me a statement from someone who claims his communications were tapped without a warrant.

The fact is that the administration has gone to FISA over 5400 times since the inception of the program to get warrants for communications where one of the participants was a "US person" as defined by FISA.

By the way, why did you find my statement so confusing? Check the date of my statement, then check the date of the article that just appeared today. Then look again at what I actually said --

"What makes you assume there were more than 5400 cases involving "US persons"? Certainly not anything yet published by the NY Times or the Washington Post. "






Phred


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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Phred]
    #5164515 - 01/10/06 10:46 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Sorry, but I'm going to need to see Bush's actual statement on that, not some staff writer's misinterpretation of what he believes Bush has said. We've been around that mulberry bush enough times already with such classics as "imminent threat". Show me Bush's actual statement. Or show me a statement from someone who claims his communications were tapped without a warrant.





Bush admitted to the program (http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/17/bush.nsa/). But that's not specifically what I'm trying to adress here. So far there is information being brought forth about this program. The program is being described as spying on American citizens. I'm not sure if you're looking for a legal case to actually be brought to trial, or what, but the description of the program is what is being broughtforth.

Quote:

Phred said:
The fact is that the administration has gone to FISA over 5400 times since the inception of the program to get warrants for communications where one of the participants was a "US person" as defined by FISA.





Ok, those are times when they got warrants. Again, that has nothing to do with the program in case.


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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Twirling]
    #5164556 - 01/10/06 10:55 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Yes, Bush admitted to the program. What I want to see is an example of the NSA listening to the conversation of a "US person" as defined by FISA without obtaining a warrant.

The NYT just insinuates they were doing so. No one has shown they were doing so.




Phred


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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Phred]
    #5164618 - 01/10/06 11:05 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Oh, well that's rather a difficult need to satisfy. It's being brought to the spotlight, and it?s an accusation being made. Of course they're insinuating that this happened, that's the whole point of the whistle blowing. You make it sound as if the NY Times mislead people into thinking that what the whistle blower said wasn?t as bad as they made it out to be.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Twirling]
    #5164773 - 01/10/06 11:31 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

First of all, there is more than one "whistleblower", if you can believe the NYT. They talk about "more than a dozen" people who gave them information on the program. These people aren't whistleblowers, they are at best felons and at worst treasonous.

Second, there is as yet no evidence from any source -- or even for that matter any statement from any source -- that any "US person" as defined by FISA has had their conversations listened to without a warrant. To the contrary, there is evidence that the administration sought at least 5400 such warrants.

Third, even if it does eventually turn out that some conversations involving "US persons" were in fact tapped without a warrant, there is plenty of case law supporting the right of the Executive branch to do such a thing in time of war, and NO case law at all to the contrary.

As has been pointed out here many times, there are many cases where warrantless searches are allowed. It is a common misconception that every search or surveillance requires a warrant. This is not the case and it has never been the case. The relevant point to be addressed is the caveat delineated by the Fourth Amendment -- that such searches/surveillance be reasonable. If ever there were a situation where listening in to a conversation would be deemed reasonable, it would be a case where an enemy belligerent from abroad is calling someone located in the US.

The Bush-bashers have been whining for years about the administration's failure to "connect the dots". Now they're whining about dot-connecting.

You will note that not a single American politician who was briefed on the program -- and there were plenty -- has called for a halt to the program. Perhaps that's because even the looniest Democrats realize that doing so would be the end of any hope of their getting re-elected.



Phred


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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Phred]
    #5168579 - 01/11/06 07:57 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

I really don't know what else to say at this point, I feel like this is going in circles.


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Phred]
    #5168612 - 01/11/06 08:05 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Second, there is as yet no evidence from any source -- or even for that matter any statement from any source -- that any "US person" as defined by FISA has had their conversations listened to without a warrant. To the contrary, there is evidence that the administration sought at least 5400 such warrants.




Thats a good point. There is really nothing known about the details of this or who was really wiretapped aside from the fact that they were within the US and the program was very limited in scope. I'm not sure whether pursuing this is a good idea or not, politically.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Catalysis]
    #5170518 - 01/12/06 04:04 AM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Catalysis said:
Quote:

Second, there is as yet no evidence from any source -- or even for that matter any statement from any source -- that any "US person" as defined by FISA has had their conversations listened to without a warrant. To the contrary, there is evidence that the administration sought at least 5400 such warrants.




Thats a good point. There is really nothing known about the details of this or who was really wiretapped aside from the fact that they were within the US and the program was very limited in scope. I'm not sure whether pursuing this is a good idea or not, politically.



What are you talking about? Virtually every article written on this says that Bush authorized wiretaps on US citizens:

Fox News-- "Bush acknowledged last weekend that he authorized NSA to intercept international calls and e-mails but only those linked to Al Qaeda, even if one end of the conversation is taking place in the United States and includes an American citizen."
CNN -- "Bush gave the National Security Agency license to eavesdrop on Americans communicating with people overseas"
Wall Street Journal-- "Bush's claim that he has a legal right to eavesdrop on some U.S. citizens without court approval has widened an ideological gap within his party."
ABC News-- "President Bush says he was given the legal authority to spy on U.S. citizens without a court order"
Yahoo News-- "Bush said on Monday he broke no laws in authorizing spying on Americans with suspected ties to terrorism"


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Catalysis]
    #5183898 - 01/15/06 05:23 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

bumped for Skepticos


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