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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more
    #5182498 - 01/15/06 05:12 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

As in algebra 1+1 always equals 2 and never equals something else, isn't it in metaphysics that 1 + 1 always bears at least 3 ?
The two parts, which create THE more, create IT, the non-inherent but inherent, NEW. Like man + wife = child, or left brain + right brain = human consciousness.
As soon as IT gets existent, it can be valuated as another 'pole' on which the ladder of numerology ascends the metaphysics.

Just my thought of today over the primal principle of duality. Feel free to share your thoughts about it :laugh:
:heart:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Offlinealsey
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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5182506 - 01/15/06 05:23 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

1 + 1 is 2. its the same thing. it can never be anything else. to say it is something other than what it is would be absurd. like picking up a stone and saying 'this is an apple'.


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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: alsey]
    #5182546 - 01/15/06 06:27 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

So, if I may translate this into metaphysics, you would propose to be 1 + 1 = 1 ?
If you may see, I get the metaphysical declanations from quality.

It is possible to 'state': one human + one human makes three humans. Or Two brainhalfs make a brainconsciousness.
And that adds somehing to 'quality'.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (01/15/06 06:35 AM)

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5182562 - 01/15/06 06:59 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

As in algebra 1+1 always equals 2 and never equals something else, isn't it in metaphysics that 1 + 1 always bears at least 3 ?
The two parts, which create THE more, create IT, the non-inherent but inherent, NEW. Like man + wife = child, or left brain + right brain = human consciousness.


You are still implying an inherent dualism. Ultimately, ALL is 1. You can psychologically seperate the 1, into 2 pieces, and therefore it appears that you have 1 + 1 = 2. Further seperations, subseperations and sub-subseperations lead to more and more numbers down the number line, but this does not change the fact that reality is all 1 [integrated whole].

And here is a link on metaphysics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5182622 - 01/15/06 07:59 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Numbers require an object to make any sense.

For example, 100 liters of water + 100 liters of alchohol = ~150 liters of solution.

Notice, how 100 + 100 = 150 does not make sense.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5182642 - 01/15/06 08:17 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

in metaphysics that 1 + 1 always bears at least 3 ?

Too bad my bank doesn't use metaphysical algebra to calculate the interest on my deposits. :rolleyes:


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5182701 - 01/15/06 08:52 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
As in algebra 1+1 always equals 2 and never equals something else, isn't it in metaphysics that 1 + 1 always bears at least 3 ?
The two parts, which create THE more, create IT, the non-inherent but inherent, NEW. Like man + wife = child




As if sexual intercourse resulting in another human being is a mathematical equation. :lol:

Perhaps I just don't understand what you are saying.... I'd learn German, but then I wouldn't make much sense when using it to you. :smirk:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5186456 - 01/16/06 09:55 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

As nobody seems to understand what I am talking about, I dare to elaborate.

Yes, I am talking about the metaphysical problem of identity. As it states that everything has the identity value of "1".
Now, of course, man can see everything as 'one' besides the many parts of which it consists, but will forget about the 'old' principle, which is called: The sum is more than it's parts.
Besides that, I recognized, that many things, seemingly being 'one' identity, consists out of two or more parts in nature.
May it be the brain, with it's hemispheres, the cell with it's chromosomes, the 'race' consisting of males and females.

So, regarding the sentence, 'the sum is more than it's parts', isn't it obvious, that 1+1 is more than two ? In fact, the two parts built a new identity, which can be seen as the 'third' one, that makes the two parts as 'one' again.

I wonder, if this principle can also be seen in quantum space, and how this principle can be described better than I can...

Got it now folks ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: Diploid]
    #5186468 - 01/16/06 10:01 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
in metaphysics that 1 + 1 always bears at least 3 ?

Too bad my bank doesn't use metaphysical algebra to calculate the interest on my deposits. :rolleyes:



In fact it does, as your money does something there. It rises its value, rsulting in your called interest. Its from merging with the other money, which adds 'eternal' value resulting in MORE, than you paid into your account though pure algebra :lol:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5186498 - 01/16/06 10:16 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

discomfort about duality is not necessary.

until an association arises there is no separation,
once the association (from memory) arizes, the duality exists,
whether it is the matching process of perception or the more laborious layer of labelling to support discursive thought or communication.

but when the mind embraces perception (and labelling) as a valid process(es) within the self, duality falls into a secondary status of mechanical function within the mind and again there is no separation.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5186867 - 01/16/06 12:18 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Yes redgreen, as far as I understand you, it's as I understand it myself :smile:
I see no discomfort at it, only a huge rising above the limited view of algebraic 1+1.

I see everything coming out of it. If two 'single' but in principle similar systems start to interact (same with a single something interactively seperating into two parts), there will arise an 'unpredictable' third something, which, in general will hold the two parts together, but is bearing an original value itself, as an 'identity'.

So this process can start over and over again to build the fabolous complexity we see and call reality.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5186903 - 01/16/06 12:31 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

when association begins, there are many matches until a best fitting selection is made.
it is often surprising that only one other seems to emerge - one would expect many and yet one best fit is usually "perceived" so as to create the consensual reality.
following that match, another subsequent one usually "chained" (and so on)

do you mean the chained subsequent ones (in 1+1=2+1=3...), or the preselected candidate ones (1+xyz=2/xyz=2)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5187019 - 01/16/06 01:09 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

lol, I think I mean both simultaniously, as to look into the sums and into the summands (hopefully the right word).

As to look at the diversion and the summation in both ways that make effect to the third outcoming something.

edit: Hard to tell in algebraic terms..like 1+1=3+1=9


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (01/16/06 01:18 PM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5187060 - 01/16/06 01:17 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

you mean
one two many
any which way?


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5187067 - 01/16/06 01:19 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

sorry, I edited...

a good way to look is: 1+1=3; 3+1=9;....

(something like that)


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5187109 - 01/16/06 01:32 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Two more concepts of the similar quality adding to ONE in bearing much more (than two):
Night - Day
and Past - Future


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5187119 - 01/16/06 01:36 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Is there an oscillation inbetween ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5187305 - 01/16/06 02:24 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

it works like that when you are nicely stoned and several frames are buffered, you can jump accross the timeframes and skip all the passport (intermediate logic) checking.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5187377 - 01/16/06 02:39 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

yip, like in a fractal


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5187460 - 01/16/06 03:10 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Note- this reply later turned into a thought stream journey of some energy dynamics going on behind these debates. I thought it was interesting to look at along the way so I kept it in.

Quote:

Blue said:
As nobody seems to understand what I am talking about, I dare to elaborate.




I understand you and so do others who haven't posted in here I am sure from reading others talk about this in other posts.

I wish I could help others understand who currently don't. Maybe they do, I think they do, yet something fights against accepting it for what it is in its own context. Maybe its the duality discomfort red brought up.

I once used the demonstration that 1+1=48.  1 case of soda plus one case of soda equals 48 cans. If I worked for a party planner and she said to me, I need 48 cans of soda, I would go buy 2 cases. We do use metaphysical math and interpret unit exchanges in our head. She and I could understand that she needs me to get 48 of something and that I will be buying 2 things.

It's not complicated and is as simple as it sounds. Maybe thats what is going on, people think we are talking about something more complicated.

The verbal and written math of purchasing two items and giving me 48 of what I need is taking place in the 3rd dimension. The unit exchange is taking place in another spatial dimension of thought outside/inside of the written or verbal word. I call it multi dimensional math for that reason. Blue, you call it metaphysical math. Same difference to me.

Same with that example of 2 pounds of lead equaling 3 pounds when centrifugal force is applied. The unit exchange of force is taken place in another spatial dimension of manipulated gravity pulls.

This is no astounding revelation and we all deal with this stuff and think nothing of it.

Then when someone says 1+1 can =3 or 48 in metaphysical or multidimensional math people say, "NO it doesn't" It doesn't in 3 dimensional math or linear physical math and I agree. It does in multidimensional math where another spatial dimension is being used to understand the unit exchange or in meta-physical math where something intangible is manipulating physics.

This goes back to the discussion on impossibilities. Things become impossible within limit restrictions. In this case, context has limits. Take something out of context, out of its limits and anything may be possible.

Like when someone posts a quote out of context and a completely different meaning may be implied to it. Someone takes the quote out of its 3-dimensional context which gave its intended meaning and by leaving it alone, many other abstract meanings can now be applied to it.

Limits serve us to keep things in control and order. Science uses them for controlled studies. We use them for verbal and written communication and to keep order and structure in our life and to communicate and understand. Just because we put a restriction on something to keep control of it doesn't mean that is all there is to it. It just means, that is all the restrictions allow there to be.

Why is it useful to be able to view reality this way? It just helps us to realize the malleability of "apparent" fixed reality when we want to establish a new possible outcome or new order or structure or allow more freedom within a controlled environment to take place, for new probabilities to result. We can do that if a need or reason too, arises.

We do it in our personal lives to suit our needs and probably rarely realize that we are shifting around personal restriction lines, or using other spatial dimensions of thoughts applied to 3-d space events.

When two or more people are involved, everyone has to be made aware of the shift in the restriction lines for order and understanding to continue or else misunderstandings and miscommunication takes place and then chaos and disorder arises.

Like when someone puts up a quote line out of context, applies a different meaning, and then replies as if that meaning was meant instead of the one written around it. There's almost always a minor to major reaction to that. 

When a group agrees to a shift of restrictions and everyone understands the newly created space given to work within, we can make more or less room for ourselves. We do it and or can do it when things get to tight to accommodate desired results.

I think I now understand what diploid meant when he said some people play unfair. They often play with less thinking restrictions then what is apparent and sometimes, logic heads play with less then what is apparent and no one is on the same page of understanding anymore or even in the same playground.

Like when Nakors moved to restrict which definitions of the word draw applied to dips challenge. He pulled them in even tighter and less then what they are to bring the results of failure he desired. Others were working with all of the definitions of the word draw as they appeared in the dictionary. Sometimes, mystic heads use there own other worldly definitions and the same confusion takes place.

Apples and oranges how do we all as humans ever get on the same page at the same time? :lol: I think that only happens when the goal is common within a group. When it is not, disorder, conflict and chaos arise.

We are a group of people here and what is our collective goal for being here? We don't have one. :lol:

Some say the come to socialize, some to seek truth, some to determine with logic and ration what is real, some say to explore the nature of consciousness, some say to philosophize about life, some say to debate life philosophies or spiritual teachings and disciplines, just to sharpen debate skills and the list goes on.

In the process, when one goes to reduce another's mental size, they feel uncomfortable being pushed and squished in and say "ouch". When one goes to expand another's mental size, they feel uncomfortable being pulled and stretched out and say "ouch".

Our beliefs systems, where we have our personal limits set for what is or can be make up our comfort zones.

There are the people who say, thats why we need to do away with beliefs and find out what is real or can be.

The funny thing about that is when we have reason, proof or evidence to think something is real it becomes a belief. All of the structures we work within to give life order and to make sense of it are the result of beliefs.

Beliefs are not the problem here. They are just frameworks we work within to define our individual realities. The problems result when people FIX those frame works to a permanent size and foundation.

Some people want a sense of permanence resolved to establish security and familiarity with the environment. That has its advantages as you can become proficient within your fixed environment by getting to know it well.

After that, if you don't expand or change foundations, without new stimulus the auto pilot goes on and one starts to live through the established motions that get them through the day. The down side is that you may become dull after nothing new can be discovered and robot like too.

Others are comfortable within changing environments and adapt quickly. The disadvantage is that they never stay in one fixed area to become proficiently knowledgeable or familiar with it. It is a more insecure place to be in that sense. The advantage is your senses are always being engaged by the new changes of scenery and you feel more alive and excited.

Anxiety can take place for either type when expansion happens to fast to even temporarily secure it along the way. It can also be experienced when things one thought were secure in their mental box others start taking away from it as they shrink it.(if you let them-live with gun to take care of the looters :evil:)

For some its like walking into a new 300 room home on 800 acres of land. You may feel insecure and anxious, or maybe excited and comfortable with it. For others, its like having lived in a 300 room home on 800 acres and being put into a studio apartment. They may feel trapped like a rat and get insecure and anxious and want to bust out or they go mad.

I'll end this thought stream here. I got carried away wondering whats going on behind the scenes through these debates. :blush:

Oh yeah, and in the expanded context of multidimensional math 1+1 can =48 :laugh:

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5187613 - 01/16/06 03:51 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Thank you (very much) Jiggy for your input. This gives a royal stamp to it :laugh:
But I think that I will go farther while repeating that the sum is more than ist parts and searching a principle behind that, what evaporates algebra like plutonium...

It seems to be the principle behind the 'novelity' (word?), the principle behind creation...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5187636 - 01/16/06 03:58 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

what evaporates algebra like plutonium...




Extra terrestrial tazer guns of course! :smile:

Good luck on your search for the principle. Personally, I did all I could to avoid him in school myself. Sitting in his office was boring.

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5187655 - 01/16/06 04:02 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I once used the demonstration that 1+1=48. 1 case of soda plus one case of soda equals 48 cans. If I worked for a party planner and she said to me, I need 48 cans of soda, I would go buy 2 cases. We do use metaphysical math and interpret unit exchanges in our head. She and I could understand that she needs me to get 48 of something and that I will be buying 2 things




No, this does not work.  Each can = 1/24th of a case, so you are not buying 48 cans, you are buying 48/24ths of a case. 

Whether the math is metaphorical, metaphysical, or multi-dimensional, you must compare comparable units.  If you reject this concept, then you reject mathematics, and should not resort to using mathematical equations to explain/explore non-mathematical concepts.  Math is not a good tool for this job, IMO.  A jackhammer is an excellent tool, but does not help me make a peanut butter sandwich. :wink:

Edited by Veritas (01/16/06 04:13 PM)

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: Veritas]
    #5187730 - 01/16/06 04:19 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I agree. What I am saying is that the comparison (unit exchange) is taking place in another dimension of space "thought". It is seen in the mind, not on the paper or heard in words.

Its like writing 1 case equals 24 cans and 2 cases equals 48 cans.

Now, parts of that sentence are going to blip off the screen into hyper dimensional space and only some will remain in physical 3-D space.

2 equals 48.

To read that alone in 3-D it makes no sense and is incorrect in the limited context. If I look at that 3-D equation and go into hyper dimensional space, I can retrieve those missing parts in my mind and put together the original sentence and make sense of it as it and see how it can be correct when multidimensional thought is applied.

The best I can explain it for now.  :smile:

Remember, several people here do understand this on their own accord. You've got at least 3 choices. You can work to understand what they do, you can not work to understand it and fight it, or you can just not care either way. And maybe if you go into hyper mental space, you can find another option for what to do with it.

I trust you to run your own universe. :smile: That's my new motto.

:peace: :heart:


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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5187757 - 01/16/06 04:26 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I understand the concepts being tossed around in this thread, which is why I said that mathematics is not the correct tool for the job.

Perhaps some people prefer their sandwiches prepared with a jackhammer, but I like to use a tool with more precision.  I find that the job is accomplished more efficiently and with a better end result.  :shrug:

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: Veritas]
    #5187775 - 01/16/06 04:32 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

?:lol: yes, mathematics in the metaphisics will stay an unadequate tool, but it serves for 'imaging' some concepts and models, which stand in contradiction to its own algebraic logic.
That's fun for me :lol:
And gives cause for further investigation :tokeeporder:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (01/16/06 04:37 PM)

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: Veritas]
    #5187783 - 01/16/06 04:34 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

What happened to all the sexy signatures and avatars?!?! :shocked:



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5187801 - 01/16/06 04:39 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

...the purpose of metaphysics, which is to reach beyond nature (physis) as we perceive it, and to discover the "true nature" of things, their ultimate essence and the reason for being




I see mathematics as being very useful for activities involving the physical world, and what we may perceive about it.

When you wish to go beyond that, and into exploration of the "ultimate essence," you need more fluid, subjective methods.

I find math, logic & rationality fascinating and useful.  I also know when they are useless. :grin:  My subjective, intuitive impressions/guesses about the ultimate essence are all I have to work with once I leave the physical/perceptible/tangible realm. 

These "information gathering" tools give me the fluidity and flexibility I need to explore the intangible, and then I can use my logical/rational tools to examine what I have gathered.

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: Veritas]
    #5187809 - 01/16/06 04:41 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I understand that too. I doubt blue or I or others wish to wipe linear 3-d math off the face of the planet. Its an awesome precision tool indeed!

metaphysical or multidimensional math is an addition to it that allows for more possibilities to be realized is all.

Another example might be a simple gomp quote.

Some people read it "as is" and get gibberish, "non sense" and give it. :thumbdown: Others read the handful of words, go into hyper mental space to retrieve missing parts to make sense of it and are like, "Wow! That was deeply insightful and profound gomp" :thumbup:

Why can we think in this way or do we? It just seems to start happening naturally and when you are with others who do, you can become more proficient with the use of verbal or written words used to communicate. Discussions fly at hyper speed.

Like a friend off the forums and I would just back and forth a lot of one to 4 word sentences with some longer ones built in. If I were to copy and past the dialog, it would read like non sensical gibberish, yet he and I walked away with volumes of information exchanged and understood by each other. Most of it we were pulling in and retrieving from the same place in hyper space and not from the written text.

It's a fun way to fly when you open her up with another who can. Everybody can if they would just let go for a spell.........

:shrug:

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5187827 - 01/16/06 04:47 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

:lol: That reminds me of the way I communicate with my mother.  We can use "shorthand" with each other which communicates little to anyone who overhears it.

"Did you put the whatsit away?"
"Yes, it's behind the..."
"Other thing?"
"No, the dealie."
"Oh, you mean over the place?"
"Yeah, behind the dealie."
"OK"

:rotfl:  The trouble starts when either of us tries to use this vaguely descriptive terminology with anyone else.

"HUH???"  :confused:

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: Veritas]
    #5187850 - 01/16/06 04:52 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

So, how metaphysically represent the fact that 1+1= much more (than 2) ?
That could give room to further exploration and considering that, as something essential, what I strronggly feel about...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5187888 - 01/16/06 04:59 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I speak of complex systems. But can this be reduced to some primary rule, too ?
I strronggly feel so...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: Veritas]
    #5187905 - 01/16/06 05:04 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Hehe, like you and your mom were making a third 'unknown' place between your two places rising to existance :laugh:

edit: oops, sorry. Next time, I will shrink these replies to one :lol:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5187916 - 01/16/06 05:06 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Some big brains at Stanford seem to be tinkering with theories in this area.  Check this page:

http://mally.stanford.edu/theory.html

Perhaps the "theoretical math" methods they are using are closer to the fluid tools I prefer for this sort of job. :wink:

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: Veritas]
    #5187944 - 01/16/06 05:12 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Wooohooo ! That rocks :lol: Thank you for that link veritas ! I have to chew some bits of it first ! :laugh: :heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: Veritas]
    #5187953 - 01/16/06 05:14 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
:lol: That reminds me of the way I communicate with my mother.  We can use "shorthand" with each other which communicates little to anyone who overhears it.

"Did you put the whatsit away?"
"Yes, it's behind the..."
"Other thing?"
"No, the dealie."
"Oh, you mean over the place?"
"Yeah, behind the dealie."
"OK"

:rotfl:  The trouble starts when either of us tries to use this vaguely descriptive terminology with anyone else.

"HUH???"  :confused:




:lol: Exactly! You do understand it! Thanks for openning up and letting go to use the analogies for relating it too. I appreciate that.  :smile::thumbup:

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5187961 - 01/16/06 05:15 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, do chew it thoroughly...it is much easier to digest that way! :wink:

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5187984 - 01/16/06 05:20 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Hehe, like you and your mom were making a third 'unknown' place between your two places rising to existance :laugh:





Hmm...I think we already had a third place: our shared frame of reference.  Since our communication was contextual for BOTH of us, it worked to transmit the intended messages.  For someone without that context/frame, the messages were not intelligible.

Part of the struggle to convey ideas to others is creating a shared context.  Often the discussion needs to start wayyyy back from the place where you eventually want to arrive.  :smile:

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: Veritas]
    #5188148 - 01/16/06 05:57 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Thats one example of having a shared context with someone in the physical reality where the two or more can speak in bits and know the missing pieces.

Like with gomps stuff or with my friend, the shared context is not from a shared history that we are aware of having anyway. There does seem to be a place, a space that people do retrieve information from and can access it off of key word combos, phrases and or symbols.

It's as if those keys open a door to that space and you can walk in and see what they see. It's weird and neat to experience with virtual strangers.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5188162 - 01/16/06 05:59 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

My mother likes to call it "grokking," from Stranger in a Strange Land.  :grin:

When you can share 100% of someones' context, mental, emotional, spiritual, you "grok them in fullness."

:heart:

I found this connection with my chosen sister the night we met.  Perhaps our contexts were already so close to one another in nature that the love between us more easily bridged the gap?  We had similar upbringing, similar temperaments, etc...

A few months after we met, we played a game of Pictionary in which she drew a horizontal line & I said "tennis," knowing she was drawing the net across the court.  This intuitive play continued throughout the game, and the folks on the other teams refused to play against us in the future. :grin:

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: Veritas]
    #5188166 - 01/16/06 06:00 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

:thumbup:    :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5189668 - 01/17/06 01:21 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
As in algebra 1+1 always equals 2 and never equals something else, isn't it in metaphysics that 1 + 1 always bears at least 3 ?
The two parts, which create THE more, create IT, the non-inherent but inherent, NEW. Like man + wife = child




As if sexual intercourse resulting in another human being is a mathematical equation. :lol:





01100100 01100101 01110000 01100101 01101110 01100100 01110011 00100000 01101111 01101110 00100000 01101000 01101111 01110111 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01101100 01101111 01101111 01101011 00100000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01101001 01110100 , my friend.

:wink:


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5189866 - 01/17/06 02:30 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Metaphysics, biologism, transcendent categories, universalism:

we don't need that way of thinking anymore.

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: Lakefingers]
    #5190487 - 01/17/06 09:56 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

What do you propose ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5190831 - 01/17/06 12:00 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

"Whereas we can identify and individuate concrete objects in terms of their spatiotemporal location, we must identify and individuate abstract objects in some other way, for abstract objects are not the kind of thing that could have a location in spacetime. Encoding provides the means of identifying and individuating abstract objects. The properties that an abstract object encodes are part of its intrinsic nature---they are even more essential to it than the properties that such objects exemplify necessarily."
Still chewing...

And now still more chewing:
http://mally.stanford.edu/principia1.pdf
I get more near but that is crunchy stuff :what: :weirdeyes:
I don't like it dissolving into dizzle-dazzle there... Let's see what I can get out of that...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (01/17/06 12:17 PM)

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5190936 - 01/17/06 12:37 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
As in algebra 1+1 always equals 2 and never equals something else, isn't it in metaphysics that 1 + 1 always bears at least 3 ?




Possibly at (or beyond) a singularity.

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5190987 - 01/17/06 12:56 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

No, I see everywhere that you don't need extraordinary circumstances for it as it is encovered within normality. But as everybody looks at the 1+1=2 stuff, nobody seems to realize that 1+1=minimum 3, in a metaphysical consideration of truth, reality and existence.
I still wonder, where this is covered, as I am halfways through the principles of metaphysics, but have not met the link about the abstract, been born out of the concrete and coming back as a new identity. I even not am sure, if I meant that it is an 'abstract' that forms out of the duality, as it re bounces back as soon as it is created into pure existence.
But in the essay (link above), soon comes the theory of summation for me to read..perhaps I will find something there...

Still reading, chewing and searching :laugh:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5191151 - 01/17/06 01:48 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I am coming to think about making lychee-vanilla ice-cream the comming summer :lol:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5191735 - 01/17/06 04:14 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Still not through yet, but perhaps I have to get explicit, as even the metaphysics seem to simulate/follow the algebra in some way, whenever I think it had to be the other way round :wink:. I did not find something that points to something new created out of a kind of duality, in general in that text, yet.
So where the f*** does this surplus come from, or am I dreaming or something ?
I will read on, but it does not look like that I will find what I search for in that manuscrip, even it is a special quality excellent superior script about the logical methodology behind the metaphysics :thumbup:

Did they oversee something ?

[edit: sorry for whirling thoughts :lol: I feel like a coyote hunting its tail]


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (01/17/06 04:32 PM)

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5194821 - 01/18/06 12:11 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Today, I will most surely have a break from reading this corny stuff.
I more became concerned, in how this phenomena of real existence is here around me concerning my country, germany.
It came back, from a split, now we all are really, really confused and many many unpredictable things are happening here as an uncovered result of the re-union.
Thats so hard to tell and explain, gals and guys.. but perhaps I will come back laters, as I will have carried on my readings :lol:

/diving back into vastness of metaphysical methodology :lol:

edit:
And I tell you, folks, inbetween, in my job, I am catched in a extreme immense struggle between:
"Come on guy, keep your ass together and take the rocket for career. We do everything to carry you further, wherever you want as we see your concepts, but you have to be tight, tuff ...start here, as early as possible...find the fun..get on and get on, you see there is so much to be done. Get to it, man !"

Shit and I think to myself "What the fuck ! Holy shit ! I want to have my time for me myself, at least some more time, I even have now, or find some however arted compromise, feeding myself well, besides miney and power. I shit on that guys. I will have my life )back), as a primitive, full self.reliant existential part of this earth and nature, and not caught up in some f***cked up human abstract concept of power, might, slavery, pressure and mindcontrol.
Hell, I will arrive back to the entrance of crazyness soon here :lol:

Sorry for rant in dull english language..only my thought of today for today. as I am ripped heavylly around apart about and so...
:heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (01/18/06 12:37 PM)

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5194826 - 01/18/06 12:13 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Each letter's a number. Like the Hebrew A, Alef is 1. B, Bet is 2. You understand? But look at this. The numbers are inter-related. Like take the Hebrew word for father, 'Ab' - Alef Bet... 1, 2 equals 3. Alright? Hebrew word for mother, 'em' - Alef Mem... 1, 40 equals 41. Sum of 3 and 41... 44. Alright? Now, Hebrew word for child, alright, mother... father... child, 'Yeled' - that's 10, 30, and 4... 44



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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: spud]
    #5195150 - 01/18/06 02:00 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

hehe, I knew hebrew can make some sense with this :smile:
Perhaps I should create mind games from this. Somthing like:
What comes out of the duality between heaven and hell ?



answer: incarnation

mawaoeieia...where am I lost ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5201520 - 01/20/06 02:37 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I propose this:

The Good Life.

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5203789 - 01/20/06 05:43 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Lake, I understand and I apreciate. I am just trying to get/find/fix some concept which nested in my brain, but not only there :smile: I am wondering if I have a wrong perspective upon the case. But then, what does this perspective supposes to say ?

Meanwhile I rumbled around further and had some talk with friends. They too start searching for a pointer.
In principa metaphysica I am stuck in the middle, but it will come the time soon, when I will read on.

It's not synergy, it's not a compromise as well as it is not friction as essence...

Got some air, now diving down again. If I find something, I will let you know...

edit: ah yes, and it is not about bees and flowers


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (01/20/06 05:51 PM)

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more *DELETED* [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5205872 - 01/21/06 08:56 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: No reason.

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: Lakefingers]
    #5205962 - 01/21/06 09:39 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I will find a solution :wink:

But thank you very much for you input about these insights !
I begun to wonder where all the ancients philosophs had been left. I can imagin how this 'third' thing requires an 'anti-'thing and that feeding the growing.
I don't think it is something purely abstract as it is visibly existing in the real world. Yes, I see the starting point and the end point, but I can't see the 'path' inbetween, the method or concept, which I assume has to be very simple.
I want to encounter this problem with a 'relaxed' mind, to see it in its fulles developement into existence and reality, but I will also be happy about only one non-esoteric reason for that.

If the ancient philosophs didn't bring that concept down to some simple solution, there seems something more going on about that.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5213961 - 01/23/06 12:31 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Holy mushroom. That is more to dig, than I hoped for :grin: I don't want to go through Heidegger and Co (aeh, sorry. The Greeks [as I don't remember anything fruitfull about that from them, except perhaps Platon], Hegel and Derrida,...), but that makes me wonder, why they did not present any 'easy', 'clear' and 'cute' solution.
Dammned, I have gone in roundabouts. Time to take a little step out, to regain perpective on that :laugh:
So, don't expect fast results please, but I still love to hear about any correlating ideas, that could bring us any further :wink:
I will keep that case open and if I hit something, I will let you know...
Just at the moment, my brain gets sick about that and I will take on Lakeys suggestion :grin:
Is it, perhaps..........an existing paradox ?  :crazyeyes: :jawdrop:

Even in german, it's esxtreme hard to read about. Fpr example:
http://www.uni-ulm.de/uni/intgruppen/memosys/inetpb03.htm

Haha, all I read now, how Hegel and Krause were bitching around what was first...duality or unity/singularity...haha damned

They lead to a further astonishing dichotothings duality: nature and rationality (even I haven't figured out if that counts really yet, because that sounds like bees and flowers :lol: )
And round the caroussel goes :lol:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (01/23/06 03:04 PM)

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OfflineScarfmeister
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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5215249 - 01/23/06 07:39 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Math was created by us humans to satisfy our need for order, its not some kind of universal system that we discovered.
In our version of math 1+1=2 because we like to break things down to small easy to work with units. What if the first humans had developed differently with an extreme affinity for grasping abstract systems. what if they had some multidimensional/metaphysical way of thinking, for them adding things up in pairs etc would be like describing the the universe as being black. Insufficient.
Eventually as they progressed they would form mathematical "laws" and theories etc that makes perfect sense to them.
What if some guy would would say "hey lets skip all these other dimensions and just put this together with this and call it a that" While im sure they would be able to see logic, it would no doubt be deemed as a philosophical argument by their mathematicians.

I mean think about it, what it the first sentient beings assigned totally random and arbitrary strings to objects and based their foundation of math on that knowledge? And that their way of thinking became the norm.

Its late and i not sure i make any sense.


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We're the lowest of the low, the scum of the fucking earth!

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OfflineGomp
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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5395562 - 03/13/06 03:17 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

One is not only one..
one is two, as one two times..
three is ...

1+1=its 3'd.. being 5!

1 and 1, and its sum of 2, as the three..
oh wait that is seven,..

my bad!

:confused: :thumbup:

Edit:

1sixpac + 1sixpac = 12 beer!

now there is some useful math right there! 1+1=12!
:rolleyes:

Edited by Gomp (03/13/06 03:22 PM)

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: Gomp]
    #5395693 - 03/13/06 03:56 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I am sorry, I did not find out anything (more) reasonable yet :emocry: But I am holding my eyes still open, dangling between 1/0 and 1+1>3.

Inbetween I did dig out another concept:

existence+existence(nonexistence)=woa
:blush:
:heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBlueCoyote
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Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
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Re: Metaphysix: 1 + 1 = much more [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5486264 - 04/06/06 11:46 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Holy shit, girls !

WHY do we have TWO arms with hands with TEN fingers ?
WHY do we have TWO legs, haha

:lol: :rofl2: :heart: :lol:

Ps: :blush:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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