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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5186399 - 01/16/06 11:24 AM (16 years, 10 days ago)

If the U.S. strike had been successful (killed Zawahiri) Pakistan would have taken credit. But since, the strike failed, Pakistan's politics comes first.


--------------------
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We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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OfflineAnisotropic
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: Swami]
    #5186683 - 01/16/06 01:19 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Remember though, if the family of the people killed hate amerikkka now it's because they hate our freedumb.

No one has a legitimate reason to want to harm amerikkkans. They're just religious zealots.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5186770 - 01/16/06 01:47 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

But are we just supposed to take it on good faith that Pakistan's Government knew what we were up to, and the CIA asked permission before bombing? I allow that what you're saying is definitely possible, but it just seems totally out of the question to trust an institution like the CIA that much. The average civilian has no idea what they are doing and everytime the CIA comes up in the news or in history it usually involves them doing something sketchy in a sovreign Nation that most Americans wouldn't stand for in our own country. I'm not really willing to give the CIA the benefit of the doubt.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Offlineparihaka
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5188613 - 01/16/06 09:52 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

So can any of you hippies actually give me a reason as to why the US shouldn't bomb the hell out of northern Pakistan any time they damn well like? It does after all willingly house the rump of both the Taliban and Al Qaeda, both currently at war with the aforementioned US....


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: parihaka]
    #5189073 - 01/16/06 11:40 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

parihaka said:
So can any of you hippies actually give me a reason as to why the US shouldn't bomb the hell out of northern Pakistan any time they damn well like? It does after all willingly house the rump of both the Taliban and Al Qaeda, both currently at war with the aforementioned US....




so, everyone in that area is actively affiliated with Al Qaeda and the Taliban? What is your source?


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: Swami]
    #5189350 - 01/17/06 01:24 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

9/11 baby. We can do whatever we want.









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Offlineparihaka
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: Vvellum]
    #5190447 - 01/17/06 11:39 AM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
Quote:

parihaka said:
So can any of you hippies actually give me a reason as to why the US shouldn't bomb the hell out of northern Pakistan any time they damn well like? It does after all willingly house the rump of both the Taliban and Al Qaeda, both currently at war with the aforementioned US....




so, everyone in that area is actively affiliated with Al Qaeda and the Taliban? What is your source?



Not all Germans supported the Nazi party but it didn't stop us bombing the bejesus out of them.
The Japanese didn't all support the war party or suddenly become pacifists post WWII but we still fire-bombed Tokyo.
Pakistan may like to draw arbitrary lines on a map but the simple truth is that if Uncle Mushy were to go on a date in Northern Pakistan he'd be handed his nuts on a plate. Some of the greatest enemies of both Christendom and Islam currently reside in those hills, we are at war with them, and any chance to take them out is a chance not to be missed.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: parihaka]
    #5190688 - 01/17/06 01:07 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

parihaka said:
Not all Germans supported the Nazi party but it didn't stop us bombing the bejesus out of them.
The Japanese didn't all support the war party or suddenly become pacifists post WWII but we still fire-bombed Tokyo.
Pakistan may like to draw arbitrary lines on a map but the simple truth is that if Uncle Mushy were to go on a date in Northern Pakistan he'd be handed his nuts on a plate. Some of the greatest enemies of both Christendom and Islam currently reside in those hills, we are at war with them, and any chance to take them out is a chance not to be missed.




Here we go with the WWII comparisons again. It's not the same thing. We are talking about a much more complicated situation. Not all German citizens supported the Nazi party, yes. But guess what? The majority of Germans were at least willing to accept their leadership and control. All the soldiers in the German army supported the nazi party. The third reich controlled the army and the government and therefore we were at war with the controlling power of Germany. It is not the same thing in Pakistan. We are not at war with the Pakistani government. And unless we are it is a very problematic maneuver to just shoot missles at targets in their country.

I'm not saying we were necessarily wrong for doing so, I'm just saying that a comparison between this event and WWII is asinine. We need to recognize this is a totally different era.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Offlineparihaka
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5190764 - 01/17/06 01:28 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Here we go with the WWII comparisons again. It's not the same thing. We are talking about a much more complicated situation. Not all German citizens supported the Nazi party, yes. But guess what? The majority of Germans were at least willing to accept their leadership and control. All the soldiers in the German army supported the nazi party. The third reich controlled the army and the government and therefore we were at war with the controlling power of Germany. It is not the same thing in Pakistan. We are not at war with the Pakistani government. And unless we are it is a very problematic maneuver to just shoot missles at targets in their country.

I'm not saying we were necessarily wrong for doing so, I'm just saying that a comparison between this event and WWII is asinine. We need to recognize this is a totally different era.



C'est guerre. The justification that we shouldn't do it because someone gets hurt doesn't cut the mustard. Protestations aside Pakistan does not control its northern territories. The people of those territories knowingly harbour and assist wanted criminals currently involved in a war against the rest of the world. Simply because they don't have a flag or a recognised nation state doesn't limit their culpability or absolve them of their responsibility. Just as in WWII personal responsibility for your peoples actions still counts.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: parihaka]
    #5190805 - 01/17/06 01:46 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

parihaka said:
Just as in WWII personal responsibility for your peoples actions still counts.




So by your rationale, if the KKK started bombing churches in Mexico, the Mexican government would be justified in shooting missles at some places in America where the Klan is particularly strong, because of personal responsibility? Everyone in America is personally responsible for the fact that we have terrorists here on our own soil? You wouldn't feel violated if the intelligence agency of a foreign nation acidentally blew up your grandma when they were just trying to root out terrorism?

Before anyone flames me for "loving the enemy," realize that I'm just trying to point out how freakin dangerous it is, politically, to blow up sspots in foreign countries. Its not the same game as war. Maybe its better, because fewer people die. I don't know.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
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Offlineparihaka
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5190830 - 01/17/06 01:58 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Quote:

parihaka said:
Just as in WWII personal responsibility for your peoples actions still counts.




So by your rationale, if the KKK started bombing churches in Mexico, the Mexican government would be justified in shooting missles at some places in America where the Klan is particularly strong, because of personal responsibility? Everyone in America is personally responsible for the fact that we have terrorists here on our own soil? You wouldn't feel violated if the intelligence agency of a foreign nation acidentally blew up your grandma when they were just trying to root out terrorism?

Before anyone flames me for "loving the enemy," realize that I'm just trying to point out how freakin dangerous it is, politically, to blow up sspots in foreign countries. Its not the same game as war. Maybe its better, because fewer people die. I don't know.


I'm not trying to flame you, just debate you. As for your KKK analogy, if the American government and people refused to hand over the criminals and instead harboured and protected them then yes, Mexico would be perfectly justified in firing missiles at KKK HQ. As for being 'freakin dangerous' well yes, war is 'freakin dangerous'. One should always be careful about what side you take, and what the consequences of that are.
And as an aside, after the Rainbow Warrior bombing, I did feel violated.  How's that for a complex situation with dangerous consequences :wink:


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: parihaka]
    #5190879 - 01/17/06 02:19 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

As for being 'freakin dangerous' well yes, war is 'freakin dangerous'. One should always be careful about what side you take, and what the consequences of that are.





And these consequences are only suffered by those who make the wrong choices? We all know civilians die all the time from these kinds of strikes. How can one be careful of what side their neighbors or peers take?


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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Offlineparihaka
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #5190938 - 01/17/06 02:38 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

CyberChump said:
And these consequences are only suffered by those who make the wrong choices? We all know civilians die all the time from these kinds of strikes. How can one be careful of what side their neighbors or peers take?



By opposing them.
I'm sure we all recall the carpet bombing of Afghanistan. If Pervez Musharraf hadn't renounced the Taliban and bent over backwards to accomodate America, the north of Pakistan would have suffered the same fate. Personally I admire Americas restraint in not carpet bombing the place, but instead trying to use pinpoint strikes to take out the enemy.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: parihaka]
    #5191043 - 01/17/06 03:10 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Actually America has shown WAY too much restraint which is precisely the reason this war is still going at the pace it is. I would like to see a little less restraint sad to say but it's the only option.


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: parihaka]
    #5191247 - 01/17/06 04:19 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

parihaka said:
Quote:

CyberChump said:
And these consequences are only suffered by those who make the wrong choices? We all know civilians die all the time from these kinds of strikes. How can one be careful of what side their neighbors or peers take?



By opposing them.
I'm sure we all recall the carpet bombing of Afghanistan. If Pervez Musharraf hadn't renounced the Taliban and bent over backwards to accomodate America, the north of Pakistan would have suffered the same fate. Personally I admire Americas restraint in not carpet bombing the place, but instead trying to use pinpoint strikes to take out the enemy.




By opposing them, I see.

Therefore it is now my responsibility to devote my life to ensuring that nobody in my vicinity does anything that some foreign power decides is bombworthy, or I can expect to be killed. Forget the pursuit of happiness and all that bullshit. My job is stopping everyone around me from being crazy. I'll get right on that.

Should I not 'oppose' successfully, I can expect to be killed.

I think people deserve more rights than that, but that's just me.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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Offlineparihaka
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #5191275 - 01/17/06 04:26 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

CyberChump said:
Quote:

parihaka said:
Quote:

CyberChump said:
And these consequences are only suffered by those who make the wrong choices? We all know civilians die all the time from these kinds of strikes. How can one be careful of what side their neighbors or peers take?



By opposing them.
I'm sure we all recall the carpet bombing of Afghanistan. If Pervez Musharraf hadn't renounced the Taliban and bent over backwards to accomodate America, the north of Pakistan would have suffered the same fate. Personally I admire Americas restraint in not carpet bombing the place, but instead trying to use pinpoint strikes to take out the enemy.




By opposing them, I see.

Therefore it is now my responsibility to devote my life to ensuring that nobody in my vicinity does anything that some foreign power decides is bombworthy, or I can expect to be killed. Forget the pursuit of happiness and all that bullshit. My job is stopping everyone around me from being crazy. I'll get right on that.

Should I not 'oppose' successfully, I can expect to be killed.

I think people deserve more rights than that, but that's just me.


Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realise you don't have to assume responsibility for your community and countrys actions, all you need to do is be happy. Must be nice to live in such a safe wee world, wonder why it's like that?


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Offlineparihaka
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: parihaka]
    #5191922 - 01/17/06 07:10 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Things develop apace

Quote:

PESHAWAR, Pakistan Jan 17, 2006 ? At least four foreign terrorists died in the purported U.S. airstrike aimed at al-Qaida's No. 2 leader in a Pakistani border village, the provincial government said Tuesday.

The Bush administration, meanwhile, called Pakistan a valued ally in the war on terror Tuesday and pledged to continue pursuing al-Qaida leaders amid concerns that the airstrike has strained ties between the two countries and could provoke more anti-American sentiment.

The statement issued by the administration of Pakistan's semiautonomous tribal regions bordering Afghanistan also said that between 10 and 12 foreign extremists had been invited to the dinner at the village hit in Friday's attack.
Top Stories

* After Pakistan attack, US says Qaeda hunt to go on
* Ground View: Journalists Struggle To Get The Lowdown in Danger Zone
* We're Jewelers Not Terrorists!

It was the first official confirmation by Pakistani authorities that foreign militants were killed in the attack on the village of Damadola. Women and children also died, triggering outrage in this Islamic nation.

The statement did not identify who the foreigners may have been or who was the target of the missile strike.

Pakistani intelligence officials have said Ayman al-Zawahri, Osama bin Laden's top lieutenant, had been invited to a dinner in the targeted village of Damadola to mark an Islamic holiday but did not show up and sent some aides instead.

There have been conflicting accounts from Pakistani officials and witnesses over who, if anyone, reclaimed bodies from the scene of the missile strike.

Damadola residents claim all the victims were locals and they buried them all. One Pakistani official told The Associated Press Saturday that the bodies had been taken away for DNA tests, although it wasn't clear by whom.

The statement, citing the chief official in the Bajur region where the Damadola is located, said its findings were from a report compiled by a "joint investigation team" but gave no specifics on who was included in the team.

"Four or five foreign terrorists have been killed in this missile attack whose dead bodies have been taken away by their companions to hide the real reason of the attack," the statement said.




from here http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1514148


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OfflineMisterMyco
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: OnlyScarsRemain]
    #5192033 - 01/17/06 07:56 PM (16 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

OnlyScarsRemain said:
This story is sick. This is a obvious act of criminal terrorism.




Wrong.
Quote:


The CIA bombed...



Wrong, the CIA doesn't own any air assets capable of dropping bombs. Intelligence reports dictated action that was undertaken by the US Military.
Quote:

an unconfirmed target...




So who do you trust more, the US intelligence divisions or some Pashtun tribesmen who were helping Al-Q and are upset that they got caught?
Quote:

in a sovereign nation that is not part of any "legal" war.




The country gave us permission to wage the attacks, we didn't attack their soverignity. If we ask permission and they say that it's OK, it's acceptable legally and ethically.
Quote:


Why won't there be a criminal investigation into this?




No crime was committed that I can see. Can you PROVE that the people killed were innocents? Can you prove that the US knew that they were innocents? Hardly.
Quote:


If Musharaff (sp?) doesn't cut diplomatic ties with the US over this then I imagine that he'll face an even more intense opposition movement at home.




Not my problem.
Quote:


When is the U.S. going to be held accountable for its crimes against humanity?



Insert eye rolling.


--------------------
"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: MisterMyco]
    #5193864 - 01/18/06 03:46 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Wrong, the CIA doesn't own any air assets capable of dropping bombs. Intelligence reports dictated action that was undertaken by the US Military.




What? Welcome to 2006. The CIA does now, and has for YEARS had the capability of performing precision strikes with the Predator series of drone aircraft. Even the CIAdoesnt deny this.

Quote:

So who do you trust more, the US intelligence divisions or some Pashtun tribesmen who were helping Al-Q and are upset that they got caught?




Aww. Your total faith in your government is almost as touching as it naive. I have no doubt that the government would lie to cover up a mistake. Of course after we got caught bombing a sovereign nation we would claim we had intelligence. I'm sorry, I have alot more faith in some tribal Muslims minding their own business than I do the Intelligence Arm of an Imperialistic state. (So you dont have to, I'll say it...Insert Eye-Rolling Here)

Quote:

The country gave us permission to wage the attacks, we didn't attack their soverignity. If we ask permission and they say that it's OK, it's acceptable legally and ethically.




This is debatable. Lest you forget, many high-level Pakistani forces are saying they had no warning of the attack. Again, its "He Said-She Said". And I'm inclined not to believe a government which would do or say anything to further its agenda.

Quote:

No crime was committed that I can see. Can you PROVE that the people killed were innocents? Can you prove that the US knew that they were innocents? Hardly.




Suddenly, the burden of proof is on the Accused? Are you a Republican, or a Facist? Can you prove to me that YOU are not a terrorist? If not, you should be liable to having a Hellfire dropped on your bedroom. As soon as you show me how to prove a negative, I'll do it.


Quote:

Quote:

If Musharaff (sp?) doesn't cut diplomatic ties with the US over this then I imagine that he'll face an even more intense opposition movement at home.





Not my problem.




This attitude surprises me. From your blind government trust and Fasistic viewpoint, your obviously a Republican. But your not concerned about Pakistan's Nukes being put into terrorist hands? You know if Musharraf is overthrown, an Islamic Goverment would likely be his replacement? Isnt it in your "Little Eichmann" handbook that you should scream "WMD!"'s at every opportunity? Or doesnt this apply to Non-Oil Rich Nations?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #5194220 - 01/18/06 09:09 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Madtowntripper stated:

From your blind government trust and Fasistic viewpoint, your obviously a Republican. But your not concerned about Pakistan's Nukes being put into terrorist hands? You know if Musharraf is overthrown, an Islamic Goverment would likely be his replacement? Isnt it in your "Little Eichmann" handbook that you should scream "WMD!"'s at every opportunity? Or doesnt this apply to Non-Oil Rich Nations?


From your obvious attacks labeling someone, you must be from some disgruntled political party. I suggest you read your history when referring to Eichmann. Handling the logistical shipments of hundreds of thousands of Jews to their extermination, is no way historically relevant to a precision air strike, all be it misguided or not.

Relating America to the Gestapo is unfounded, and frankly unintelligent.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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