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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Re: Prove me wrong, show me that god exists! Everyone should read! [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5166046 - 01/11/06 04:15 AM (16 years, 18 days ago)

Oops! I forgot to mention that quote was taken from the link on laser cooling you provided.

http://www.colorado.edu/physics/2000/bec/lascool1.html


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinenatu
Grow trees,smoke trees.
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Re: Prove me wrong, show me that god exists! Everyone should read! [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5166631 - 01/11/06 11:21 AM (16 years, 18 days ago)

That guys right. God is basically the manifestation of life right now. and you could say there are different right nows, but its really only one, alls already happened and things appear to beb changing but their substance is always the same. god if the life force which makes the wind blow.


--------------------
Wise Man Say
Smile


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Prove me wrong, show me that god exists! Everyone should read! [Re: mikeownow]
    #5166675 - 01/11/06 11:40 AM (16 years, 18 days ago)

The Angelic Doctor has your answer.

Quote:

Whether God exists?



Objection 1. It seems that God does not exist; because if one of two contraries be infinite, the other would be altogether destroyed. But the word "God" means that He is infinite goodness. If, therefore, God existed, there would be no evil discoverable; but there is evil in the world. Therefore God does not exist.



Objection 2. Further, it is superfluous to suppose that what can be accounted for by a few principles has been produced by many. But it seems that everything we see in the world can be accounted for by other principles, supposing God did not exist. For all natural things can be reduced to one principle which is nature; and all voluntary things can be reduced to one principle which is human reason, or will. Therefore there is no need to suppose God's existence.




On the contrary, It is said in the person of God: "I am Who am." (Exodus 3:14)



I answer that, The existence of God can be proved in five ways.




The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion. It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are in motion. Now whatever is in motion is put in motion by another, for nothing can be in motion except it is in potentiality to that towards which it is in motion; whereas a thing moves inasmuch as it is in act. For motion is nothing else than the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality. But nothing can be reduced from potentiality to actuality, except by something in a state of actuality. Thus that which is actually hot, as fire, makes wood, which is potentially hot, to be actually hot, and thereby moves and changes it. Now it is not possible that the same thing should be at once in actuality and potentiality in the same respect, but only in different respects. For what is actually hot cannot simultaneously be potentially hot; but it is simultaneously potentially cold. It is therefore impossible that in the same respect and in the same way a thing should be both mover and moved, i.e. that it should move itself. Therefore, whatever is in motion must be put in motion by another. If that by which it is put in motion be itself put in motion, then this also must needs be put in motion by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover, and, consequently, no other mover; seeing that subsequent movers move only inasmuch as they are put in motion by the first mover; as the staff moves only because it is put in motion by the hand. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.




The second way is from the nature of the efficient cause. In the world of sense we find there is an order of efficient causes. There is no case known (neither is it, indeed, possible) in which a thing is found to be the efficient cause of itself; for so it would be prior to itself, which is impossible. Now in efficient causes it is not possible to go on to infinity, because in all efficient causes following in order, the first is the cause of the intermediate cause, and the intermediate is the cause of the ultimate cause, whether the intermediate cause be several, or only one. Now to take away the cause is to take away the effect. Therefore, if there be no first cause among efficient causes, there will be no ultimate, nor any intermediate cause. But if in efficient causes it is possible to go on to infinity, there will be no first efficient cause, neither will there be an ultimate effect, nor any intermediate efficient causes; all of which is plainly false. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.




The third way is taken from possibility and necessity, and runs thus. We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, since they are found to be generated, and to corrupt, and consequently, they are possible to be and not to be. But it is impossible for these always to exist, for that which is possible not to be at some time is not. Therefore, if everything is possible not to be, then at one time there could have been nothing in existence. Now if this were true, even now there would be nothing in existence, because that which does not exist only begins to exist by something already existing. Therefore, if at one time nothing was in existence, it would have been impossible for anything to have begun to exist; and thus even now nothing would be in existence--which is absurd. Therefore, not all beings are merely possible, but there must exist something the existence of which is necessary. But every necessary thing either has its necessity caused by another, or not. Now it is impossible to go on to infinity in necessary things which have their necessity caused by another, as has been already proved in regard to efficient causes. Therefore we cannot but postulate the existence of some being having of itself its own necessity, and not receiving it from another, but rather causing in others their necessity. This all men speak of as God.




The fourth way is taken from the gradation to be found in things. Among beings there are some more and some less good, true, noble and the like. But "more" and "less" are predicated of different things, according as they resemble in their different ways something which is the maximum, as a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest; so that there is something which is truest, something best, something noblest and, consequently, something which is uttermost being; for those things that are greatest in truth are greatest in being, as it is written in Metaph. ii. Now the maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus; as fire, which is the maximum heat, is the cause of all hot things. Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God.




The fifth way is taken from the governance of the world. We see that things which lack intelligence, such as natural bodies, act for an end, and this is evident from their acting always, or nearly always, in the same way, so as to obtain the best result. Hence it is plain that not fortuitously, but designedly, do they achieve their end. Now whatever lacks intelligence cannot move towards an end, unless it be directed by some being endowed with knowledge and intelligence; as the arrow is shot to its mark by the archer. Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God.




Reply to Objection 1. As Augustine says (Enchiridion xi): "Since God is the highest good, He would not allow any evil to exist in His works, unless His omnipotence and goodness were such as to bring good even out of evil." This is part of the infinite goodness of God, that He should allow evil to exist, and out of it produce good.




Reply to Objection 2. Since nature works for a determinate end under the direction of a higher agent, whatever is done by nature must needs be traced back to God, as to its first cause. So also whatever is done voluntarily must also be traced back to some higher cause other than human reason or will, since these can change or fail; for all things that are changeable and capable of defect must be traced back to an immovable and self-necessary first principle, as was shown in the body of the Article.





If you can refute these five proofs, then we can talk further.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Prove me wrong, show me that god exists! Everyone should read! [Re: natu]
    #5166936 - 01/11/06 01:16 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

natu said:
That guys right. God is basically the manifestation of life right now. and you could say there are different right nows, but its really only one, alls already happened and things appear to be changing but their substance is always the same. god if the life force which makes the wind blow.




Which Guy? Skorp? I see it like skorp does and like skorp, I don't like the word God for it either because it does denote the idea of a separate being like the one portrayed in the Bible. I once put up a post in MR&P asking what do people who think of IT like what skorp said call it or what could we all call IT who see it that way.


Lots of us are not religious and worship nothing, (heee there is that nothing again) yet believe in the something that all of this comes from and holds it all together as an intelligent Source Force of sorts. What if it is just the nature of all science ever comes to understand self manifested?

I suppose, mikeownow wanted to go after the existence of separate from us, worshiped Gods and , the something some of us consider to be, doesn't qualify.

Anyway, I would still appreciate it if Mikeownow can answer my questions. He proposed that the information in the link he gave, changed his mind about how he use to see it like Skorp does. I couldn't find any reason for a change of my mind in it. I just saw the IT in that link.

I also don't understand how atoms see colors. It would be a GREAT if a science geek would explain that. It implies that a "form" of conscious awareness or "knowing" is not dependant on a brain. And if that can be proven with the works of a guy who won a Nobel Prize for it, all of diploids recent -"there is no soul posts" take a new turn in debate.

One atom alone is not a complex bio chemical system and it sees colors? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm Very interesting.

Can any science guy explain this?

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineAnimals
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Re: Prove me wrong, show me that god exists! Everyone should read! [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5167368 - 01/11/06 02:48 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

I don't believe in god but I believe in A1


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Prove me wrong, show me that god exists! Everyone should read! [Re: mikeownow]
    #5167372 - 01/11/06 02:51 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

I cannot prove God to you. God has merely shown himself(or itself) to me, and I pray that you may too may be blessed with gnosis.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Prove me wrong, show me that god exists! Everyone should read! [Re: Silversoul]
    #5167511 - 01/11/06 03:30 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

For me it is called Tao. It is unknowable and so I work on proving other things.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinemikeownow
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Re: Prove me wrong, show me that god exists! Everyone should read! [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5168340 - 01/11/06 07:12 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Quote:

I remember about the Doppler effect. It says that if an atom is going towards the laser light, it sees the light shifted to a bluer color, and if it is going away from the laser, it sees the light as redder than it really is. And the amount of the shift depends on the speed.




Mike, can you explain to me how atoms "see" colors? Atom eye balls or atom 3rd eyes are new scientific concept to me. And how does science know what an atom is seeing in color? Sounds interesting.

And, could you explain a bit more why that link negates what skorp was talking about?

And, I noticed a lot of newbies here! It's refreshing! Welcome!

:peace: :heart:

:peace: :heart:




Well it does not actually have an eye so to speak. Every atom to ever exists reflects and absorbs some light. When light is absorbed its absorbs the lights heat and energies. But when it reflects from the object it cools the atom. The atom's electrons start to spin slower etc the longer it is in the light.

But it has to be just that exact wave length of light. See it is not the light it's self so to speak that is reflecting but Waves. If any other wave length were to interfere it would cause heating. But there is an exact wave length that totally reflects.

I hope I explained that well enough it is quite complex.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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OfflineShamaNick
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Re: Prove me wrong, show me that god exists! Everyone should read! [Re: spud]
    #16868812 - 09/18/12 03:30 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

spud said:
No, the Gnostic are Gnostic. The Catholics, for example, are not Gnostic. [/quot

No, but the Catholics were gnostic untill the balance shifted and the now male dominant hyrarcical church (and most other religious factions) that took its place told you that you are separate from god and to become closer to it you have to do the following pay the church attend church and force your beliefs on others etc, etc, in order for you to get into heaven and be closer to god. The real Jesus would have told you that he was god as well as all of you and everything else. Jesus would not have said I am god and you can be close to him through me or the church etc etc. But it really doesnt matter anyway because it all moves in cycles of understanding you are god to separating yourself and escaping the incredible powers of god to experience life in a different and less overwhelmingly infinitely powerfull way you could even say lonely way. These are just my beliefs though and there can be a beautifully harmonious balance struck if we open our up to a more understanding and balanced way of life. Peace be with you all


--------------------
Everything I write and say I do is for role playing and entertainment purpose only!!!
The more we learn, the more we learn we have to learn.
We are one in the river and one again after the fall.
We all come from go back to and visit the same place. so why can't we
All get along!!!


Edited by ShamaNick (09/18/12 03:34 PM)


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OfflineGoreTuzk
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Re: Prove me wrong, show me that god exists! Everyone should read! [Re: ShamaNick]
    #16869035 - 09/18/12 04:14 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

It was a six year old thread, dude.

and you didn't close the quote tag properly... just sayin.

I do agree with your post, though.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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