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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5143724 - 01/05/06 03:47 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

yes, and what is that?

we know sensation reaches consciousness
we know consciousness makes memory from sensations
we know consciousness relates new sensations against a store of memorized ones to evince perceptions by association, and in this way associative thought proceeds;

yet - what is all of that? and how many will come to the point of even accepting that that is the nub of it or even the true final definition?


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5143749 - 01/05/06 03:57 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

you know my hobby is pretending to understand things by giving them names, don't you?

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5143770 - 01/05/06 04:07 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

yes, and what is that?

Consciousness. Your question is as redundant as if I were to ask what vision is. Vision is the faculty of sight.

It is possible you are merely confusing the what with the how. An entity's identity lies within its nature and function. And the identity [the what] of consciousness is: the faculty of perception [nature and function]. I don't follow current scientific discoveries and research to the wire, but last I heard, we have not yet fully learned how consciousness works, as our discoveries and knowledge of the brain itself has not yet reached maturity.

yet - what is all of that?

It is all a natural process congruent to the nature of all identities involved, all of which exists in a certain way because of the law of identity and the law of causality, plain and simple.




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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5143833 - 01/05/06 04:30 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Nice responses jiggy, I agree with alot that you said :thumbup:

Quote:

Diploid said:
The sensible way to approach the issue is to simply have no opinion one way or another until you have some overt reason to even consider it.




It seems to me that you are only considering the reasons that make your own opinion valid, but disregarding the reasons that make the opposite side's opinion valid.

Have you been putting the string theory in this context? The fact that physicists are able to make out 10~11 dimensions out of reality..how could this not be some "overt reason" to consider the other side's opinion?

Just because we can't observe something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist and that it is unobservable.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5143890 - 01/05/06 04:55 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
I don't follow current scientific discoveries and research to the wire




Oh you should man, so many important discoveries have been made recently. We've discovered, for example, the important role of the glial cells in the brain, cells that outnumber neuron cells by 10 to 1, and which we previously thought of (ever since they were discovered) as being a mass of cells with the sole purpose gluing the neuron cells together. What they actually do though is that they "talk" to neurons and affect their ability to signal with each other, which suggests that they influence the brain's thinking process.

Neurons is so yesterday man :wink: Make room for glial cells! We have a second brain to make new studies on and learn more about this consciousness that we actually know so little of.

http://www.straddle3.net/context/03/en/2005_10_21.html


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: exclusive58]
    #5145452 - 01/05/06 11:50 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Diploid made a point to someone, about not assuming the existence of a soul with no reason to do so.

i would like to make the same point to diploid in reverse.

the argument u made at the begining does not imply that there is no soul.
it implies that our current state of being is(in some part) a mechanism of biology.



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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

Edited by BleaK (01/05/06 11:52 PM)

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: BleaK]
    #5145887 - 01/06/06 03:45 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Then as it approaches zero there is an allegedly huge spike. Nothing observable in nature works this way.




From the perspective of a fetus, birth would certainly work this way.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5145924 - 01/06/06 05:42 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
yes, and what is that?

Consciousness. Your question is as redundant as if I were to ask what vision is. Vision is the faculty of sight.






The difference between having a term for something, and knowing what that thing is, is relative knowledge, and rather than dispensing with the question having merely located a few words, this thread raises it and asks for more.

200 years ago "hysteria" (a well defined word) was a woman's disease, the word was explicit, yet the understanding was defective, supposedly it was solved by hysterectomy.

In this thread we wish to pull at connections from our consciousness into a void that may envelop us or may convey us to other places.

there is always a possibility that someone might say something that will increase somebody's sense of what we are.

Since our current knowledge about consciousness is close to our 200 years ago understanding of hysteria, I would keep trying to expand the issue.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: BleaK]
    #5146091 - 01/06/06 08:55 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Diploid made a point to someone, about not assuming the existence of a soul with no reason to do so.

i would like to make the same point to diploid in reverse.

the argument u made at the begining does not imply that there is no soul.
it implies that our current state of being is(in some part) a mechanism of biology.


Unlike a 'soul', there are 100 years of evidence from neurological science all pointing to a purely biochemical mechanism giving rise to consciousness.

So you see, I have very good reasons for believing in biochemistry and exactly zero reason for believing in the concept of a 'soul'. :shrug:


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #5146228 - 01/06/06 10:02 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

The difference between having a term for something, and knowing what that thing is

I understand there is a difference between having a map of a territory, and knowing the actual territory through first-hand experience. However, terminology is a corollary of knowledge, and terms are to be used in communication of such knowledge.

rather than dispensing with the question having merely located a few words, this thread raises it and asks for more.

Whereas you see mere dispensing the question with a few words, I see simplifying a question that is otherwise being needlessly over-complicated and misbegotten. Just as I wouldn't "ask for more" out of our faculty of sight - vision - why should I need more out of our faculty of perception? The primary reason why there exists such an inquisitive divergence in others, is because there remains a very dear thing to many mystic-minded, or folks who find more comfort in pretending to know rather than realize they know nothing, when it comes to knowledge of our brain: mystery. Mystery offers a [temporary] haven to all their beliefs in which they seek solace. Of course, don't get me wrong and think that I have anything against mere curiousity of the unknown - there is a difference between respectful awe and curiousity of "what's out there", and mining mystery for ores of intellectual onanism to alleviate personal dissatisfaction with reality as it is.

200 years ago "hysteria" (a well defined word) was a woman's disease, the word was explicit, yet the understanding was defective, supposedly it was solved by hysterectomy.

Compare apples with apples. 200 years ago, what was the actual state of the scientific method? Your analogous comparison is akin to one attempting to negate today's medical technology and science because some several centuries ago there existed unscientific folks who attempted to devise a cure of the flu by drinking Cow's urine.



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5146762 - 01/06/06 12:43 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I am in the throws of a family funeral today, and it is making me think of many things that might well be related to this thread.
like being born living and dying.
I will post later what I come up with.
meantime, enjoy the apples, and don't get too hysterical either.


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5146869 - 01/06/06 01:02 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

First let me say

Quote:

Diploid said:
That the brain can be 'paused' by a coma that temporarily prevents the personality from existing by halting neurological mechanisms known to give rise to consciousness and that it can resume the expression of consciousness when the coma ends is persuasive evidence that all we are is pure biochemistry and there is no soul.




That is only persuasive evidence regarding the correlation between consciousness and the brain. That says nothing about the soul unless you think that "soul"="consciousness". "Spiritual/trancendent states" are often described as being Egoless, in which there is no sense of permentent self.

Quote:

which fundamentally carries a person's personality and memories and which is incorporeal and survives the death of the body intact




Your definition only says that experience can be transferred through time, but it does not say that these experiences must be constantly percieved. Therefore a "pause" in consciousness does not rule out the existance of a soul.

Secondly... i have to read the rest of the posts in this thread.

Edited by dr0mni (01/06/06 01:02 PM)

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #5146893 - 01/06/06 01:06 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

diplo, a murderer will have an easy play if you would be the criminologist.

There are realities behind the obvious, provable and testable.

You only can get a private confession from g*d about the things humans don't know for sure, if you listen carefully to the things around.

That is like someone murders and leaves no evidence. You only can arrest him with indirect proof or a confession, what both is not the evidence you search.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5147009 - 01/06/06 01:27 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, I have to agree whole heartedly with Jigz post..!

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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #5147012 - 01/06/06 01:27 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Diploid made a point to someone, about not assuming the existence of a soul with no reason to do so.

i would like to make the same point to diploid in reverse.

the argument u made at the begining does not imply that there is no soul.
it implies that our current state of being is(in some part) a mechanism of biology.


Unlike a 'soul', there are 100 years of evidence from neurological science all pointing to a purely biochemical mechanism giving rise to consciousness.

So you see, I have very good reasons for believing in biochemistry and exactly zero reason for believing in the concept of a 'soul'. :shrug:




you have a reason to argue for biochemistry as a mechanism of awareness.
you have no reason to argue against a soul. just as you have no reason to argue for it..
so i say, leave it out of the disscussion.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #5147765 - 01/06/06 04:08 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
That the brain can be 'paused' by a coma that temporarily prevents the personality from existing by halting neurological mechanisms known to give rise to consciousness and that it can resume the expression of consciousness when the coma ends is persuasive evidence that all we are is pure biochemistry and there is no soul.



How does this argument hold up against the current theory (in the field of AI) that the brain is a parallel distributed processor (PDP)? With PDP, consciousness is not what makes the brain function, rather it is an effect of a functioning brain. Your personality and memories are not stored in the neurons themselves, but are a result of their connections.


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