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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul
    #5142647 - 01/05/06 10:22 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

[Note, for the purpose of this thread, 'soul' is defined as: the hypothetical entity which fundamentally carries a person's personality and memories and which is incorporeal and survives the death of the body intact.]


Locked-in Syndrome
When the lower, evolutionarily-older regions of a person's brain are destroyed by an illness or injury that leaves the higher, evolutionarily-modern regions intact, the person is left in a condition called Locked-in Syndrome characterized by complete paralysis below the neck and the inability to speak. However, they remain conscious and alert and can think, hear and see. This permits a rudimentary communication using coded eye-blinks. This condition follows logically from a lower brain injury because the ability to think and reason is a function of the undamaged upper brain while coordinated movement is a function of the older parts of the brain.

Persistent Vegetative State
When the pattern of brain damage is reversed, destroying the upper, modern region while leaving the lower region healthy, the person is rendered in a persistent vegetative state and loses all cognitive abilities. They cannot think and do not experience the sensation of existing. All their autonomic functions continue to work and they can move and even sit up, but with their upper brain destroyed, none of the movements are willed because the upper brain, which is responsible for conscious awareness and which is the origin of willed movements is destroyed. The personality that the upper brain once gave rise to is lost permanently.

Coma
A coma is different than either Locked-in Syndrome or Persistent Vegetative State. In coma, the neurological functions that give rise to consciousness are suspended, not destroyed. The person loses the sensation of existing, does not dream, and cannot form memories of the period during the coma. Coma is like 'pausing' the brain. When the person recovers from the coma, the neurological structures whose function was suspended resume functioning and consciousness once again begins to occur.

That the brain can be 'paused' by a coma that temporarily prevents the personality from existing by halting neurological mechanisms known to give rise to consciousness and that it can resume the expression of consciousness when the coma ends is persuasive evidence that all we are is pure biochemistry and there is no soul.

When a person dies, everything they were ceases to exist completely.

What do you think?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (01/05/06 10:38 AM)

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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/18/00
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #5142655 - 01/05/06 10:27 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

The soul hypothesis has the same fallacy as homeopathy and would look the same on a graph. As brain function decreases/ages so does consciousness. Then as it approaches zero there is an allegedly huge spike. Nothing observable in nature works this way.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineTameMe
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #5142689 - 01/05/06 10:37 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

i think of it as a puzzle....
when we die...we just become a part of a new puzzle....
nothing ceases to exist...all the pieces are here....
the puzzle just changes.

but if you're saying that certain arrangements of pieces....makes new entities...and then when those pieces break away....that newly created entity will only exist in the memories of other arrangements (or people). your personality (or at least your remembered and perceived personality) will exist beyond you.....through writing or word of mouth

Edited by TameMe (01/05/06 10:39 AM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #5142732 - 01/05/06 10:48 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

what we see hear and feel is all in this 3-d world.
our memories and imagination are re-generated in consciousness by our brain which is in this 3-d world.

for a set of impressions to continue after dissolution in the 3-d world (physical death), those impressions would have to be sticky in some 4-d context that is unobservable here in 3-d land.

while this may be so, i.e. that an entity may pervade a higher ordered dimension and so also pervades this dimension engendering persons as extrusions of that 4-d entity here in 3-d land, we have no way to be sure or to conjecture as to how (or if) the impressions gathered in a lifetime ever make it back to that bigger place (if it exists).

In the old days when theories of this sort were most rampant, before computers and holograms and any inklings that memory would actually fit inside a human head, the extra dimensional existence of a soul was necessary to explain anything.

now it seems more optional, and we should see some impact upon ethics - hopefully an improving impact as this penetrates our minds.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5143035 - 01/05/06 12:29 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

The other consideration missing here is that, anyone who says consciousness remains, is NOT saying- cognition through a brain remains.

Why is no one mentioning the possibility that a higher order of consciousness can exists in a different state of cognition through higher dimensional meta-physical constructs? (Well, Red sort of did)

While in a physical body, we consciously cognize the physical plane with the body sensors and the brain.

Why assume, that while in a soul body we are not consciously percieiving and aware with sensors and forms of an aetheric material?

Lets look at the assumptions in your  first post dip.

The first is the assumption that people claim people maintaining conscious awareness while in a coma or vegetative state are still using their material brain.

The second assumption is that because we don't have methods to detect aetheric soul material that it therefore doesn't exist as a possibility.

Everyday, science is developing new detection equipment and we learn that MUCH is a part of existence that our 5 senses have not been detecting- like micro waves, sounds out of the audible range, Infrared. Did those things not exist during the time we had no method to detect their presence?

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5143112 - 01/05/06 12:53 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Did those things not exist during the time we had no method to detect their presence?

Irrelevant.

If there is no reason to believe a thing exists, it makes no sense to arbitrarily assume it does. The sensible position is to say nothing at all about it until and if some inkling of it appears.

Replace "a thing" above with Giant Spaghetti Monsters and see how silly it is to believe in a thing that COULD exist but isn't even slightly in evidence.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #5143142 - 01/05/06 01:02 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

The funny thin about your reply is that, I was discussing taking that same position in Skorps Objectivists post. I was talking about, anything being outside of our perceptual awareness might as well not exist. I totally agree with you diploid (in a working sense)that's how we get through "practically".

If I can't hear the sound of a dog whistle, it doesn't exist to me in any way relevant to what I am doing. It can't call me to come, it can't get my attention if I am in danger and has ZERO applicable use or meaning upon me if I can't hear it. I understand your position and agree with it. Still doesn't mean the sound isn't there.

The reason this debate comes up in life is that- some people are perceptually aware of souls existence and thats why, it is relevant to them-in a working practical sense.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5143173 - 01/05/06 01:11 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Still doesn't mean the sound isn't there.

I think you missed my point. That being that it makes no sense to go about your life thinking that a dog whistle you can't hear may actually be sounding at every moment. While this is certainly possible, it makes no sense to go about life believing that.

The sensible way to approach the issue is to simply have no opinion one way or another until you have some overt reason to even consider it.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineTameMe
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5143192 - 01/05/06 01:16 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
The other consideration missing here is that, anyone who says consciousness remains, is NOT saying- cognition through a brain remains.

Why is no one mentioning the possibility that a higher order of consciousness can exists in a different state of cognition through higher dimensional meta-physical constructs? (Well, Red sort of did)

While in a physical body, we consciously cognize the physical plane with the body sensors and the brain.

Why assume, that while in a soul body we are not consciously percieiving and aware with sensors and forms of an aetheric material?

Lets look at the assumptions in your  first post dip.

The first is the assumption that people claim people maintaining conscious awareness while in a coma or vegetative state are still using their material brain.

The second assumption is that because we don't have methods to detect aetheric soul material that it therefore doesn't exist as a possibility.

Everyday, science is developing new detection equipment and we learn that MUCH is a part of existence that our 5 senses have not been detecting- like micro waves, sounds out of the audible range, Infrared. Did those things not exist during the time we had no method to detect their presence?

:peace: :heart:




in out plain...it doesn't exist. unless you can talk to spirits i guess. how would i know if my grandpa's counciousness was still going after he died?

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #5143248 - 01/05/06 01:38 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Not only did I get your point, I agreed with it. I agree that in your experience, you do have no reason to beleive in it. Why should you?

I added, the debate goes on because- some people hear the proverbial dog whistle. And if you can, it exists to you and you have practical use for it.

If a dog could talk to you, he would tell you he hears sounds, you don't. We know he can. Prior to our having a detection tool for the existence of that sound, you would assume the dog was crazy and making it up.

As a scientist you may say, I can run observable tests. Even though I can't hear it myself, I can blow the whistle and watch a dog respond to it.

What do you think all of these people who have made a change in their life, in response to perceiving from soul spirit are doing? If it didn't exist, what are the millions responding to? They are telling you that they feel and hear something in their hearts and its caused them to make change. I think it's observable in that sense.

The only difference is, we are not in control of blowing the soul whistle to make a parallel test. Something out there is blowing on it and people are hearing and responding to it.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Invisiblerogue_pixie
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5143282 - 01/05/06 01:53 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Some of you people amaze me!!!

Aren't athiests just so dull. :grin:


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5143294 - 01/05/06 02:01 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

If it didn't exist, what are the millions responding to?

They're responding to the human psyche's evolved need for a warm and snuggly higher power rather than accepting the harsh truth that there is nothing more.

Little kids make these kinds of fantasy comforts up all the time; some adults never outgrow them.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisiblerogue_pixie
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Posts: 3,977
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #5143303 - 01/05/06 02:05 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
If it didn't exist, what are the millions responding to?

They're responding to the human psyche's evolved need for a warm and snuggly higher power rather than accepting the harsh truth that there is nothing more.

Little kids make these kinds of fantasy comforts up all the time; some adults never outgrow them.




How can you speak of an ultimate truth?

I was an athiest, now I'm agnostic....

No-one knows what happens until they die, that is assuming when we die we'd be capable of knowing or being anything.

I'd rather believe there was something else out there than this shitty life anyway.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #5143313 - 01/05/06 02:08 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Aren't athiests just so dull.
unsexy too. i mean there is still mystery in the agnostics

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Invisiblerogue_pixie
faerydae
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: raytrace]
    #5143373 - 01/05/06 02:22 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

oh you knows it

*wiggles arse*


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #5143498 - 01/05/06 02:50 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
rather than accepting the harsh truth that there is nothing more.




Quote:

Dipolid said:
The sensible way to approach the issue is to simply have no opinion one way or another until you have some overt reason to even consider it.





Which it?

I agree- have no opinion about it until you have some overt reason to even consider it. I agree agree agree.

Now why haven't you considered that some, DO have an overt reason besides the one you gave?

Think about sip, to respond to something you can not perceive to be there would make you look absolutely CRAZY or like a child playing with it's imagination. There are grow adults who know the difference. I know my house isn't on fire and there is nothing there to respond too. If it wasn't and I was, I would look crazy and I know that. If I wanted to, I could use my imagination and pretend the house was on fire and pretend to put it out or get out of harms way. I would be well aware of my using my imagination to pretend all of that too.

In other words, people who know the difference, between, what everyone can perceive with 5 senses and what some do with the 6th and they know the difference between what they imagine to be real and what they are really experiencing. You can test one for that measure of sanity. Test me for it. I clearly know the difference. I hear and see stuff that is not the product of my pretending that it is real and  I also know others are not perceiving.

And sometimes, they are and the veil is penetrated. Once I saw a portal open up in my ceiling while watching TV. It was wild. I know my husband would not have seen anything there. I was watching the tele and became distracted by what looked like a  pool of shimmering water open up about 2 feet wide up above it.

About ten minutes latter, my living room reeked of Shalimar. I could smell it and my husband could too. I don't know where it came from.

My aunt, who recently passed, wore Shalimar as her signature fragrance. I hate the smell of it myself. Two weeks later, I read in a book about how a common way, spirit interacts with the physical plane is through perfuming.

I'm as sane as the next guy dip but come on? I could write books on personal stories like that.

I have overt reason to believe. I understand that you don't. I respect that you have no reason to believe and don't. Why can't you respect that I and others do?

What's with the patronizing comments about the harsh truth? Maybe you live within a harsh truth of your choosing because it's comfortable for you to be in, I live within an extraordinary one that is soft, gentle and beautiful and yet, makes me often uncomfortable too without explanations for a lot of it. What makes you think many are receiving comfort from such experiences? I can't say I like the idea of my dead relatives spying on my private life-just because- it's creepy to think grandma is watching ya- never mind.
When I want to get warm and snuggly with the hubby, I don't take comfort in knowing grandpa, grandma and aunt Bess and my sister Linda are in watching.

How can you pass pass judgment unto something diploid, you say, you havn;t experienced for yourself. Thats like passing judgment on living in a city you have never seen pictures of or lived in. You call that being sensible? It can't be sensible if non of your senses were involved in experiencing life in that city first for yourself. When you have, then you can pass your judgment and opinion of it and have it actually mean something to the rest of us.

Like when seeking information about getting a pet iguana, I am going to care about the opinion of a guy who has never even seen one, so doesn't even believe they exist, let alone had the experience of having one for a pet. We get the message diploid.

YOU DON"T BELIEVE SOUL EXISTS. We've heard you loud and clear. It's been duly noted. I don't blame you for not believing if you have no reason too either.


And why do you say the words warm and snuggly like they are a bad thing? :confused: If you think warm and snuggly is a bad thing, its a no wonder the truth of your reality is cold and harsh.

That's not my fault.

You said that the sensible thing to do is to have no opinions without reason. You sound like you have some opinions about it so you must have reason for those. Why do you think that your reasons for your opinion are more valid then anyone else's?

I can validate your reason for non belief and mine for belief at the same time. It's not difficult to do. For you to validate my belief doesn't mean you have to believe yourself. It just means, you realize, I do and you respect that I do.

If you have NO respect for people who believe in the existence of a soul then that's your problem to live with. What happens if you meet an awesome woman, that you fall in love with and want to spend the rest of your life with and she happens to have her own reasons to believe in the existence of a soul. Are you going to show her the same patronizing disrespect for those beliefs?

Dumb question, you're dream woman is a programmable robot right? Now your interest in AI makes sense. :lol: just kidding.

To each his own.  :thumbup: Did it ever dawn on you dip, that you have to believe without doubt, in the existence of your own soul, before you can even use it, to perceive the existence of other souls?

How can you use something, you are in denial of owning? You can't receive a phone call when you deny yourself from owning a telephone to receive one with. Fine for you, but other people are accepting ownership of their soul phone and are receiving calls with it.

I gotta jet to the mall now so , it may be a while until I can get to any next reply if need be.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #5143517 - 01/05/06 02:55 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

*wiggles arse*
keep it cool or Pan is gonna wake up

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: Swami]
    #5143518 - 01/05/06 02:55 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
The soul hypothesis has the same fallacy as homeopathy and would look the same on a graph. As brain function decreases/ages so does consciousness. Then as it approaches zero there is an allegedly huge spike. Nothing observable in nature works this way.



*cough*supernovas*cough*


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: Silversoul]
    #5143587 - 01/05/06 03:11 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

except we don't know for sure what consciousness is exactly, exactly, yet, or if it can or cannot be sustained by any alternate means (which I think it can) such as silicon/copper/gold based as opposed to carbon/hydrogen/nitrogen based as we are.

and we have no consistent notions either yet about the 4th dimension or any containers for 3rd dimensional events, so that whole area of consciousness support remains open but incontestible aside from suppositions.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5143696 - 01/05/06 03:39 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

except we don't know for sure what consciousness is

The faculty of perception.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5143724 - 01/05/06 03:47 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

yes, and what is that?

we know sensation reaches consciousness
we know consciousness makes memory from sensations
we know consciousness relates new sensations against a store of memorized ones to evince perceptions by association, and in this way associative thought proceeds;

yet - what is all of that? and how many will come to the point of even accepting that that is the nub of it or even the true final definition?


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5143749 - 01/05/06 03:57 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

you know my hobby is pretending to understand things by giving them names, don't you?

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5143770 - 01/05/06 04:07 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

yes, and what is that?

Consciousness. Your question is as redundant as if I were to ask what vision is. Vision is the faculty of sight.

It is possible you are merely confusing the what with the how. An entity's identity lies within its nature and function. And the identity [the what] of consciousness is: the faculty of perception [nature and function]. I don't follow current scientific discoveries and research to the wire, but last I heard, we have not yet fully learned how consciousness works, as our discoveries and knowledge of the brain itself has not yet reached maturity.

yet - what is all of that?

It is all a natural process congruent to the nature of all identities involved, all of which exists in a certain way because of the law of identity and the law of causality, plain and simple.




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5143833 - 01/05/06 04:30 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Nice responses jiggy, I agree with alot that you said :thumbup:

Quote:

Diploid said:
The sensible way to approach the issue is to simply have no opinion one way or another until you have some overt reason to even consider it.




It seems to me that you are only considering the reasons that make your own opinion valid, but disregarding the reasons that make the opposite side's opinion valid.

Have you been putting the string theory in this context? The fact that physicists are able to make out 10~11 dimensions out of reality..how could this not be some "overt reason" to consider the other side's opinion?

Just because we can't observe something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist and that it is unobservable.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5143890 - 01/05/06 04:55 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
I don't follow current scientific discoveries and research to the wire




Oh you should man, so many important discoveries have been made recently. We've discovered, for example, the important role of the glial cells in the brain, cells that outnumber neuron cells by 10 to 1, and which we previously thought of (ever since they were discovered) as being a mass of cells with the sole purpose gluing the neuron cells together. What they actually do though is that they "talk" to neurons and affect their ability to signal with each other, which suggests that they influence the brain's thinking process.

Neurons is so yesterday man :wink: Make room for glial cells! We have a second brain to make new studies on and learn more about this consciousness that we actually know so little of.

http://www.straddle3.net/context/03/en/2005_10_21.html


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: exclusive58]
    #5145452 - 01/05/06 11:50 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Diploid made a point to someone, about not assuming the existence of a soul with no reason to do so.

i would like to make the same point to diploid in reverse.

the argument u made at the begining does not imply that there is no soul.
it implies that our current state of being is(in some part) a mechanism of biology.



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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

Edited by BleaK (01/05/06 11:52 PM)

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: BleaK]
    #5145887 - 01/06/06 03:45 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Then as it approaches zero there is an allegedly huge spike. Nothing observable in nature works this way.




From the perspective of a fetus, birth would certainly work this way.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5145924 - 01/06/06 05:42 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
yes, and what is that?

Consciousness. Your question is as redundant as if I were to ask what vision is. Vision is the faculty of sight.






The difference between having a term for something, and knowing what that thing is, is relative knowledge, and rather than dispensing with the question having merely located a few words, this thread raises it and asks for more.

200 years ago "hysteria" (a well defined word) was a woman's disease, the word was explicit, yet the understanding was defective, supposedly it was solved by hysterectomy.

In this thread we wish to pull at connections from our consciousness into a void that may envelop us or may convey us to other places.

there is always a possibility that someone might say something that will increase somebody's sense of what we are.

Since our current knowledge about consciousness is close to our 200 years ago understanding of hysteria, I would keep trying to expand the issue.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: BleaK]
    #5146091 - 01/06/06 08:55 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Diploid made a point to someone, about not assuming the existence of a soul with no reason to do so.

i would like to make the same point to diploid in reverse.

the argument u made at the begining does not imply that there is no soul.
it implies that our current state of being is(in some part) a mechanism of biology.


Unlike a 'soul', there are 100 years of evidence from neurological science all pointing to a purely biochemical mechanism giving rise to consciousness.

So you see, I have very good reasons for believing in biochemistry and exactly zero reason for believing in the concept of a 'soul'. :shrug:


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #5146228 - 01/06/06 10:02 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

The difference between having a term for something, and knowing what that thing is

I understand there is a difference between having a map of a territory, and knowing the actual territory through first-hand experience. However, terminology is a corollary of knowledge, and terms are to be used in communication of such knowledge.

rather than dispensing with the question having merely located a few words, this thread raises it and asks for more.

Whereas you see mere dispensing the question with a few words, I see simplifying a question that is otherwise being needlessly over-complicated and misbegotten. Just as I wouldn't "ask for more" out of our faculty of sight - vision - why should I need more out of our faculty of perception? The primary reason why there exists such an inquisitive divergence in others, is because there remains a very dear thing to many mystic-minded, or folks who find more comfort in pretending to know rather than realize they know nothing, when it comes to knowledge of our brain: mystery. Mystery offers a [temporary] haven to all their beliefs in which they seek solace. Of course, don't get me wrong and think that I have anything against mere curiousity of the unknown - there is a difference between respectful awe and curiousity of "what's out there", and mining mystery for ores of intellectual onanism to alleviate personal dissatisfaction with reality as it is.

200 years ago "hysteria" (a well defined word) was a woman's disease, the word was explicit, yet the understanding was defective, supposedly it was solved by hysterectomy.

Compare apples with apples. 200 years ago, what was the actual state of the scientific method? Your analogous comparison is akin to one attempting to negate today's medical technology and science because some several centuries ago there existed unscientific folks who attempted to devise a cure of the flu by drinking Cow's urine.



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5146762 - 01/06/06 12:43 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I am in the throws of a family funeral today, and it is making me think of many things that might well be related to this thread.
like being born living and dying.
I will post later what I come up with.
meantime, enjoy the apples, and don't get too hysterical either.


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5146869 - 01/06/06 01:02 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

First let me say

Quote:

Diploid said:
That the brain can be 'paused' by a coma that temporarily prevents the personality from existing by halting neurological mechanisms known to give rise to consciousness and that it can resume the expression of consciousness when the coma ends is persuasive evidence that all we are is pure biochemistry and there is no soul.




That is only persuasive evidence regarding the correlation between consciousness and the brain. That says nothing about the soul unless you think that "soul"="consciousness". "Spiritual/trancendent states" are often described as being Egoless, in which there is no sense of permentent self.

Quote:

which fundamentally carries a person's personality and memories and which is incorporeal and survives the death of the body intact




Your definition only says that experience can be transferred through time, but it does not say that these experiences must be constantly percieved. Therefore a "pause" in consciousness does not rule out the existance of a soul.

Secondly... i have to read the rest of the posts in this thread.

Edited by dr0mni (01/06/06 01:02 PM)

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #5146893 - 01/06/06 01:06 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

diplo, a murderer will have an easy play if you would be the criminologist.

There are realities behind the obvious, provable and testable.

You only can get a private confession from g*d about the things humans don't know for sure, if you listen carefully to the things around.

That is like someone murders and leaves no evidence. You only can arrest him with indirect proof or a confession, what both is not the evidence you search.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5147009 - 01/06/06 01:27 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, I have to agree whole heartedly with Jigz post..!

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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #5147012 - 01/06/06 01:27 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Diploid made a point to someone, about not assuming the existence of a soul with no reason to do so.

i would like to make the same point to diploid in reverse.

the argument u made at the begining does not imply that there is no soul.
it implies that our current state of being is(in some part) a mechanism of biology.


Unlike a 'soul', there are 100 years of evidence from neurological science all pointing to a purely biochemical mechanism giving rise to consciousness.

So you see, I have very good reasons for believing in biochemistry and exactly zero reason for believing in the concept of a 'soul'. :shrug:




you have a reason to argue for biochemistry as a mechanism of awareness.
you have no reason to argue against a soul. just as you have no reason to argue for it..
so i say, leave it out of the disscussion.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #5147765 - 01/06/06 04:08 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
That the brain can be 'paused' by a coma that temporarily prevents the personality from existing by halting neurological mechanisms known to give rise to consciousness and that it can resume the expression of consciousness when the coma ends is persuasive evidence that all we are is pure biochemistry and there is no soul.



How does this argument hold up against the current theory (in the field of AI) that the brain is a parallel distributed processor (PDP)? With PDP, consciousness is not what makes the brain function, rather it is an effect of a functioning brain. Your personality and memories are not stored in the neurons themselves, but are a result of their connections.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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