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OfflineCubenisseur
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Re: Authenticity of Carlos Cantaneda's Works [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5142192 - 01/05/06 04:55 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LIke Icey said, the three of us (and others) have only had this conversation a dozen times now. This is only possible because we have erased the personal history of the other 11 times.




LOL

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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: Authenticity of Carlos Cantaneda's Works [Re: Cubenisseur]
    #5142206 - 01/05/06 05:23 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

just a comment on smoking shrooms. castaneda was in contact with gordon wasson, allegedly the only person ever allowed to see the original notes from which the books were written. wasson never claimed castaneda's work to be a fraud, and castaneda himself suggests that the shrooms were only partially smoked. and yes he suspects them to be psilocybe shrooms, but because of being ground to a very fine powder which lay at the bottom of the smoking mixture, most of the shrooms would be actually ingested and not smoked. it's all in the books...

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Authenticity of Carlos Cantaneda's Works [Re: Fospher]
    #5142238 - 01/05/06 06:37 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

The Matrix was Bill and Ted's Impeccable Adventure?


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Authenticity of Carlos Cantaneda's Works [Re: a_h_w]
    #5142332 - 01/05/06 08:23 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

most of the shrooms would be actually ingested and not smoked

Um, no. I want you to put whatever mixture you choose in a pipe and inhale while directing some contents to your lungs and some to your stomach. Make me a believer.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Authenticity of Carlos Cantaneda's Works [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5142413 - 01/05/06 08:58 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

You always seem to have something important to add to the conversation.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineHeffy
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Re: Authenticity of Carlos Cantaneda's Works [Re: Icelander]
    #5142649 - 01/05/06 10:24 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

He clearly states in the book (not an exact quote) that to the best of his knowledge the mushrooms were from the "genus psilocybe" most likely "psilocybe mexicana".


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I am the king of Rome, and above grammar! - Emperor Sigismund

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OfflineCubenisseur
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Re: Authenticity of Carlos Cantaneda's Works [Re: Icelander]
    #5142676 - 01/05/06 10:34 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

most of the shrooms would be actually ingested and not smoked



True. It's in the books. My recollection also remembers him having to let it dry for at least a year, and was mixed with other flowers/plants.
Also realize that the English language, and most others at that, are all very limited at being able to describe things that fall outside the framework of ordinary human society.
Don Juan was utilizing the predestined relationship arranged by the higher powers that be. Don Juan found his disciples just like in the Taoist cultivation practice tradition. The master seeks a disciple. Don Juan "seek-ed" or "found" his disciples (Like Carlos in the Arizona bus station). Carlos Castaneda, Broken Eagle Feather(author of the Toltec Warrior book I mentioned) The other disciples mentioned in the Castaneda books, etc. Don Juan imparted his knowledge just as other Enlightened being did/do and Carlos was predestined to write about his experiences as a "bridge of knowledge" to the western world.

This was all arranged countless ages ago.

Heres some info that seems applicable.
AMAZON.COM-
Having lived among Mesoamerican Indians for 15 years, the anthropologist Victor Sanchez informs his readers that Toltecs do not believe in their gods but perceive them directly. Sanchez identifies these natives as living descendants of the famous Toltec sages of Pre-Columbian times and, noting that their "separate reality" cannot be understood unless directly experienced, he takes us into their world, introducing their rituals and beliefs, which, incredibly, seem to substantiate much of Carlos Castaneda's depiction of Indian spirituality. In their profound communion with nature, the living Toltecs have much to teach the urban spiritual warrior.

From Publishers Weekly
In the vein of the Don Juan classics by Carlos Castaneda, Sanchez's book is a compelling spiritual autobiography. In 1986 anthropologist Sanchez went to Mexico to study the social customs of the Wirrarika tribe; his visit became an astonishing encounter with the alteration in reality that the non-European system of belief manifests. Yet, it is also an anti-anthropology text, as the author asserts that classical academic anthropology's theoretical framework had little to offer him when his encounter with the Indian system of belief became spiritual pilgrimage. Sanchez frees himself from what he calls the "neurotic fantasies" of academic mindsets and learns to explore the alternative universe underlying our interpersonal relationships and our everyday world. Sanchez's examination of the ways that psychoactive substances like LSD and peyote generate religious states of consciousness, as well as his exploration of the religious traditions and practices of the Toltecs and Aztecs, make his work valuable religious research. This is an interesting read and a revealing examination of a sacred terrain.
Copyright 1996 Reed Business Information, Inc.

Editorial Reviews
From AudioFile
In this ambitious work, Victor Sanchez distills many of the teachings and practical applications contained in Carlos Castaneda's first eight books. THE TEACHINGS assumes a listener's familiarity with the lexicon of Castaneda's world, and the vocabulary can be initially overwhelming. The exercises though are infinitely practical and are explained clearly. Some of the techniques presented include: "not doing," experiencing the body as an energy field, the magic of attention and intention, the power of silence, and working with dreams. Woven throughout the audio is the imperative to honor and reconnect with the beauty of the natural world. Michael Toms, host of the popular "New Dimensions Radio," is a superb narrator. C.S. ? AudioFile 2000, Portland, Maine-- Copyright ? AudioFile, Portland, Maine--This text refers to the Audio Cassette edition.

Midwest Book Review
Familiarize yourself with the spiritual transformative teachings of Don Carlos of the Castaneda shaman fame; then use this to provide practical applications of his philosophy to everyday life. Chapters present segments of his ideas and blend in exercises and applications to everyday life.

Edited by Cubenisseur (01/05/06 10:44 AM)

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OfflineCubenisseur
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Re: Authenticity of Carlos Cantaneda's Works [Re: Cubenisseur]
    #5142714 - 01/05/06 10:43 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

A Toltec Path - A Users Guide to the teachings of don Juan Matus, Carlos Castaneda, and other Toltec Seers.

"The basis of this book is the exploration of Castaneda's books and verification of their teachings through personal experience...It is noe my intention to present the definitive statement about the Toltec Way...nor do I consider this a substitute for Castaneda's work. There is simply no replacing the accounts of his interaction with Don Juan.
"What I have tried to do is distill Castaneda's work in order to present features of the Toltec Way that most anyone traveling it crosses. Just as Castaneda's work is influenced by his personality, this distillation is based on my experience, interests, and goals. One goal is providing sufficient context so that you don't lose you bearings, or can quickly reclaim them, if you travel past the boundry markers of your reality-in essence, keeping your pouch of perception open to the mysteries of self and world."
-Ken Eagle Feather

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Authenticity of Carlos Cantaneda's Works [Re: Swami]
    #5144160 - 01/05/06 06:10 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

You are correct about inhalation/ingestion being an improbable ingestion technique. For the record, Gordon Wasson contacted Castaneda and inquired as to the species of mushroom involved. Castaneda told him Psilocybe Mexicana. This method of ingestion would not provide a hallucinogenic experience with a psilocybe. This was an error on Castanedas part. It is hard to imagine that in the 60s Castaneda had not had at least a casual mushroom experience. I think that all of the drug references were merely a hook to entice young counter-culture readers. He dispensed with it altogether after the third book. His peyote experiences, it is worth noting, had an element of authenticity.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Authenticity of Carlos Cantaneda's Works [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5144178 - 01/05/06 06:17 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

His peyote experiences, it is worth noting, had an element of authenticity.

I never turned into a crow, but did become an ass once.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Authenticity of Carlos Cantaneda's Works [Re: Cubenisseur]
    #5144180 - 01/05/06 06:17 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

When Castaneda presented these ideas it was original. Ken Eagle Feather (a white man not an Indian...check the pseudonym) just regurgitated Castaneda's work while refusing to give homage to his influence. The idea that Don Juan taught this guy is remote since Don Juan was most likely created from an amalgamation of shamen that Castaneda had met...a work of Castaneda's imagination. Eagle Feather brought nothing new to the table. I did enjoy Sanchez' analysis of Castaneda's work, though. Miguel Ruiz presented some original material in this vein, and is a competant writer as well.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Authenticity of Carlos Cantaneda's Works [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5144186 - 01/05/06 06:19 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I like Ruiz' works very much, too.  :thumbup:

His chapter on treating your partner the way you treat your dog was especially on-target.  :grin:

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Authenticity of Carlos Cantaneda's Works [Re: Swami]
    #5144187 - 01/05/06 06:20 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

He did not turn into anything while on peyote. Your memory is rusty...that was "mushrooms"...and it wasn't a crow, but a sparrow or some shit. Read "A Separate Reality" and you will get a precise description of a native ceremony overseen by a "Road Man".


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineCubenisseur
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Re: Authenticity of Carlos Cantaneda's Works [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5144391 - 01/05/06 07:17 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Part of my point on the mushroom thing was that if he dried them out for a year in some gourd(I would think that the potency would decrease/chemical change of some sort) with a potion of other plants, the effects from using Don Juan's medicinal recipe is sure to do some magic to you.
I recall in one book where he smoked the mixture and started falling into and through the walls and floor. Then Don Genero was "swimming" on the ground. Dude was tripping hard as usual. Like taking "power walks" at night with don Juan hunting for tigers...MINGA, tripping big time if you ask me!  :dancing:

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Authenticity of Carlos Cantaneda's Works [Re: Cubenisseur]
    #5144483 - 01/05/06 07:41 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

There is no known hallucinogen...or ethnic plant drug...or any plant drug that is ingested in this manner. I am very familiar with hallucinogenic plants and mixtures and their shamanic use, but there is no parallel for this or reason to think this would work without physically injuring the user by inhaling burning matter. Once again, the drug references seemed to be a hook and quite beside the point of the books in my opinion.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineFospher
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Re: Authenticity of Carlos Cantaneda's Works [Re: Cubenisseur]
    #5145359 - 01/05/06 11:29 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Cubenisseur said:
Then Don Genero was "swimming" on the ground. Dude was tripping hard as usual. Like taking "power walks" at night with don Juan hunting for tigers...MINGA, tripping big time if you ask me!  :dancing:




Don Genaro was swimming, and doing other things like sitting on a tree (not a branch, on a tree itself, body perpendicular to the trunk, defying gravity) when Carlos was sober to demonstrate the nagual. Also, in the Active Side of Infinity, Carlos' friend Bill talks about Shamans turning into clouds or water right in front of his eyes. Now, whether Don Juan did exist or not is truly a mystery, but do these metaphysical transformations really occur in this world?

(I'm desperate for a first-hand experience)


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010001100100001001000101!

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Authenticity of Carlos Cantaneda's Works [Re: Fospher]
    #5145418 - 01/05/06 11:42 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

but do these metaphysical transformations really occur in this world?

No.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineFospher
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Re: Authenticity of Carlos Cantaneda's Works [Re: Swami]
    #5145577 - 01/06/06 12:26 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

You're reinforcing your obvious stance on the subject. Enjoy your dull grind of materialism ... I'ma gonna chase the white rabbit.

:zoom:


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010001100100001001000101!

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OfflineFospher
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Re: Authenticity of Carlos Cantaneda's Works [Re: Fospher]
    #5145606 - 01/06/06 12:34 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"For instance, there are Cloud Shamans who turn into clouds, into mist. I have never seen this happen, but I knew a Cloud Shaman. I never saw him disappearing or turning into mist in front of my eyes, but I chased him once, and he simply vanished in an area where there was no place for him to hide. Although I didn't see him turning into a cloud, he disappeared. I couldn't explain where he went. There were no rocks or vegetation around the place where he ended up. I was there half a minute after he was, but the Shaman was gone."


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010001100100001001000101!

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Authenticity of Carlos Cantaneda's Works [Re: Fospher]
    #5145688 - 01/06/06 01:04 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

You're reinforcing your obvious stance on the subject.

Bzzzzt!  :thumbdown:

Reread the part where Carlos asks Don Juan this very question then get back to me.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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