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 Hahzist
Surfing theWaves of Chaos
Registered: 02/15/04
Posts: 214
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Quote:
blaming environment on addiction is exactly what I am talking about.
Your shitty life, and your problems are merely subjective, so is happiness. It is your reality that you have created which you are trying to get away from.
why cant an addict say "i fucked up, its all my fault that I have become mentally and chemically dependant upon this"?
Bro. Thats exactly what James Frey believes in. And like someone said, the show didnt do him justice. Operah talked about what parents can do to get involved and blah blah. The only thing James really talked about was that addicts need to "hold on" and realize that things will get better if they control their addictions and just hold on..take personal responsibility and not let their fears and addictions ruin their life. Read the book and let it go.
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
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 Re: A million pieces.  [Re: Hahzist]
#5136532 - 01/03/06 08:47 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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these last few posts have been directed towards the other posts.... and not the book.... not exactly derailed, just switched focus.
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the free thinker
salesman
Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 1,877
Loc: twin cities
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
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Re: A million pieces. [Re: Hahzist]
#5136695 - 01/03/06 09:36 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hahzist said:
Read the book and let it go.
Amen.
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 5 months, 22 days
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You fucking victims who are like children that have shit themselves and cant do anything but sit in it and cry are what I really have a problem with.
Sure, addiction is hard to overcome, but dont act like you should win a Nobel for it. You got yourself addicted.... right? or did someone force you to have a great time on all those drugs? did someone force the alchohol down your throat? no, YOU did it, no one else.
Who the fuck acts like this? I don't know anyone who does, and from the sound of things, neither does the guy who wrote the book.
If someone wants to congradulate him for overcoming his personal problems, I don't see any problem with that. Yet according to you, encouraging people to improve their lives by giving them a pat on the back when they do so is some huge contribution to the worst aspects of american culture. Give me a break.
People's own actions are obviously a huge factor in what leads to addiction... but WHY DO THEY DO THE THINGS THEY DO?
Why does one person get addicted when another one doesn't? It's not because they're inferior assholes or something, it's a lot of different factors, from the attitudes they have towards their vices and how they should be used (Which are created by their education, their upbringing, etc...), to the availability, to their economic status, to their personality traits as determined by genetics.
there is absolutely no conclusive evidence that addiction is genetic
Had it occurred to you to do some research on this topic?
Just a couple facts From:
http://gslc.genetics.utah.edu/units/addiction/genetics/index.cfm
"The A1 allele of the dopamine receptor gene DRD2 is more common in people addicted to alcohol or cocaine"
"Alcoholism is rare in people with two copies of the ALDH*2 gene variation"
So why do you think that is? Coincidence?
Or are you going to tell me that genetics is all a big hoax set up by the pharmaceutical industry?
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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dr0mni
My Own Messiah
Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 2,921
Loc: USF Tampa, Fl
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
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Re: A million pieces. [Re: Phluck]
#5146344 - 01/06/06 10:56 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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I do agree that it's obnoxious when people's stories get sensationalized and such. I mean, everyone's got amazing story to tell because life is amazing! I read a book of jail cell interviews with Ted Bundy and I feel like I benefited from reading that book.. so what does that tell you?
There are thousands of tragic stories out there and we love to hear them so we can go "oh, how tragic, that character was so brave!"
Boo/Horaay!
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: A million pieces. [Re: Phluck]
#5150214 - 01/07/06 10:23 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phluck said:
People's own actions are obviously a huge factor in what leads to addiction... but WHY DO THEY DO THE THINGS THEY DO?
Why does one person get addicted when another one doesn't? It's not because they're inferior assholes or something, it's a lot of different factors, from the attitudes they have towards their vices and how they should be used (Which are created by their education, their upbringing, etc...), to the availability, to their economic status, to their personality traits as determined by genetics.
Not to be a total jerk, but this completely feeds psilocyberin's initial posts.
While he should have made his writing less offensive, and it probably would have helped if he had actually read the book, he feels that the American media likes to portray people as victims who, in reality, have no one else to blame but themselves.
To try and counter-act that point by saying "No, they really do have other things to blame..." is a little silly.
Personally, I agree with psilocyberin on at least one point, that being most addicts have no one to blame but themselves. I will accept that there are some extentuating circumstances, but for the most part, it just has to do with over indulgence.
I was addicted to pot for a short time. For about 10 months I smoked up every single night of the week, unless I absolutely could not (final exam the next day or something). I didn't realize that I had come to need pot until one night I came home after a particularly rough day, and discovered that my roommate had smoked the last of our pot. I litterally broke down and cried, something that I had never even come close to doing before.
Then, I realized that it was just stupid. I felt that way because I thought, at some point in time, that it would be a good idea to smoke pot every single day of the week. Since that time I have never used pot more than once a week, and I have never had a repeat of those feelings. If I run out, I no longer need to immediately run out and buy more. If I find someone else has used the last of my pot, it no longer brings me to my knees.
Now, obviously its a lot easier to moderate your pot use than it is to handle something like an opiate addiciton. I can't imagine what James Frey went through, and I am glad its over for him.
I think it was silly for psilocyberin to say that all addicts can be expected to just overcome their addictions, and I think that the book is a worthy contribution to society, as Frey's story might inspire others to fight their addictions as well.
That said, I still agree with psilocyberin that all the blame placed for an addiction needs to be laid squarely at the feet of the addict.
Is it possible that some people are predisposed to be addicts? Yes.
But if you recognize addictive behavior in yourself, and you continue to use anyway, without even turning to a friend, then you have only yourself to blame.
If you thought you might be allergic to peanuts, would you blame an allergic reaction you had after consuming peanut butter on "the obvious availability of peanutbutter as both an inexpensive source of protein, coupled with the lack of a loving parent who made sufficient non-peanutbutter containing sandwiches"?
I think that the obvious answer is no. Please don't blame economics, society, family situation, etc. for what ultimately amounts to someone ignoring a problem that they create for themselves.
Edit: Forgot to close bold tag
Edited by Economist (01/07/06 10:24 AM)
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 5 months, 22 days
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Re: A million pieces. [Re: Economist]
#5150520 - 01/07/06 12:19 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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There are two different questions here:
Why do people get addicted?
What's the best way to deal with it?
Yes, some people should have dealt with the issue COMPLETELY differently. But why didn't they? Did they consider what they were doing to be wrong? If not, why didn't they?
What makes a person unable to step forward and address big problems in their lives?
When something is your fault... is it because you were raised that way? Born that way? And if the answer to both those questions is no... what is it then? Is it just "your fault", no explanation, and you deserve to be punished?
Serious addictions aren't just overuse for a period of time. They are using drugs for many years, until it becomes such an integral part of your lifestyle that quitting would force you to confront crippling boredom for hours everyday. And they aren't something you do to yourself all at once.
So many people reach out for help and still fail. Asking for help isn't a guaranteed victory. Or what if you're a professional in a public position with a heroin addiction? Asking for help could destroy your reputation and career... and your addiction might not be yet causing any direct problems in your life, as is often the case.
I'm strange about cigarettes. I was smoking pretty heavily for a while, and I lived with two smokers. But one day I decided to quit, and I did. It was easy, I didn't even really think about it at all.
But I've also smoked pot for many years. Maybe too much, often I waste money on it. But I don't want to quit, even if I know I should, I can't get the desire to quit. How could I force myself to want to quit? My emotions aren't controlled by an on/off switch, I don't know that there's any way to magically do that.
Is it my fault? Well, obviously it is, in a sense. But does anyone have control over their emotions and desires? I don't see how they could. You can say "Well, I overcame depression, or addiction, or whatever", but in order to overcome that, you needed a strong desire to do so, you needed the confidence to think you could, you needed the ability to start something and stick with it, etc... and if you don't have those things, then what? Why do some people have those things while others don't? Are they just superior people?
And if they are just superior people, what makes them that way? Genetics? Upbringing? Magic?
What's the use in blaming people entirely for their addictions? Sure it gives us all a warm glowy feeling of righteous superiority... we get to say "I'm not an addict because I'm a good person who has self control. Those serious addicts are just a bunch of losers who deserve what they get."
But does it allow us to address the problems that create addiction? What if we could find out exactly what factors in upbringing are most likely to lead to addiction, and teach people how to teach their children? What if we could find out who was born with the kind of personality most likely to get addicted and give them some extra help?
But if you recognize addictive behavior in yourself, and you continue to use anyway, without even turning to a friend, then you have only yourself to blame.
There's a general feeling that opiate addiction is some kind of terrifying hell, that anyone aware of their situation would run away as fast as they could.
But opiates aren't like that. They feel good, they make your life a lot easier in a million ways. When used safely, they aren't toxic at all. If they're readily available, there's hardly anything to complain about. You might recognize that you're addicted and say "Hey, this really isn't so bad. I'm not harming myself, my life is good, and I'm more interested in my work/school than I have been in my life. Why would I want to quit?" And that might sound stupid to you... it certainly would have sounded retarded to me a few years ago. But then I was there, and it's a whole lot different when you are. I'm sure practically every opiate addict goes through the same thoughts.
Or alcoholics. In some groups, drinking is a sign of masculinity, adulthood, and strength. The entire group gets together every single night and drinks heavily. Not drinking results in derision, insults, and sometimes even hatred from your peers. Would they go to their friends for help with their drinking? I doubt they'd get much help. They'd probably get a reply like "What are you, a pansy? Have another drink!"
Quitting, for that person, would require abandoning their friends, becoming a social outcast, and almost certainly going through some pretty awful depression and isolation. Heavy drinking in that culture is not something negative that needs to be recognized and escaped from, it's an accomplishment in itself.
If you thought you might be allergic to peanuts, would you blame an allergic reaction you had after consuming peanut butter on "the obvious availability of peanutbutter as both an inexpensive source of protein, coupled with the lack of a loving parent who made sufficient non-peanutbutter containing sandwiches"?
I think that the obvious answer is no. Please don't blame economics, society, family situation, etc. for what ultimately amounts to someone ignoring a problem that they create for themselves.
That's not a very similar situation at all. Addiction isn't something you do all at once, like someone with a peanut allergy eating peanut butter. It's a slow, drawn out process that you rarely recognize is happening until it's grabbed control of you.
And again, why do people ignore the problem? And is it always that they're ignoring it, or do they even understand/realize that it's a problem?
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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NosferatuMan
Stranger
Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 527
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
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Quote:
psilocyberin said:
So... I was watching Oprah today. It is a side-effect of my job. We have rabbit ears for cable input and it is the only thing besides children shows that comes on at 4 pm. (or some time aroudn there)
So, they did this big piece on the new, worlds best seller (kind of) titled "A million pieces".
It is first person POV, true story (supposedly) about this one guys "addiction" to probably every semi-popular drug.... and his "amazing" fight against this "crippling" "disease". (sorry for all the parenthesis, it helps cynicism).
Not once did this guy ever say "I remember a few occasions I had a great time". Not once did this guy ever claim that it was his fault for his addiction.
WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU AMERICA!!!!! i would have been more emotionally touched if they had a row of single mothers out there working regular jobs... because they have a better and more heroic story.
"but psilocyberin.... this man overcame his crippling addiction (media buzz adjective), he overcame so many personal obstacles, and you think he isnt amazing?"
no, i dont... because he placed those obstacles there himself.
the majority of america is of the logic that addiction is extrinsic, a disease that one can catch, a genetic predisposition (to some).
not once did this guy ever own up to the fact that he was the cause for all of this and kept blaming his addictions on his parents, other kids, teachers, and the availability of drugs.
Nor did this guy, or Oprah, once ever bring up the correlation between prescribed drugs for depression and ADHD! They only furthered the stereotype that illegal drugs are bad, and legal drugs are good.
Shroomery, take offense, because they were slamming mushrooms and LSD fairly hard as well.
Fuck Oprah, and Fuck this guy for writing this crap book.
/end rant
I've read part of that book, but, I haven't seen that Oprah episode. What I can add though, is that he was a crackhead/alcoholic and the part of the book I did read was very well done. I really have no clue why you're bashing this guy, throughout the book he only blames himself, himself, himself. It's one of those books that can make you crigne with the amount of self-hatred present.
Basically, he wakes up on an airplane completely fucked up (Mentally as in he cannot recall how he even got on the plane, and physically because of the barrage of cuts, black eyes, etcetera that litters his swollen face.
Done in an interesting style, I'd recommend it to anyone who wanted a good easy read.
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 Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Quote:
the free thinker said:
Yes, it IS a true story, he DID have an addiction, in my opinion is IS amazing, and the American Medical Association classifies addiction, yes.. AS A DISEASE. You make me fucking sick.. the arrogance of people.. sorry I'm just getting real pissed off here...
A free thinker realizes that the AMA is not always right, classifying an a self
inflicted problem as a disease is definately wrong, it's not a sickness or an
illness as 12 step programs would have you believe, they depend on people
blaming the drugs for their problem, that the power of recovery is not in their
hands but in the hands of god.
Addiction as a disease again allows the blame to be placed elsewhere, it doesnt
encourage the user to take personal responsibility for their own actions, it
enables them to 'relapse' into the same train of thought that brought them
into an addiction to begin with and have the same tired excuse "it's not my
fault, it's a disease"
Quote:
And when I read posts like this, it just makes me wonder how people claim they are becoming "more open minded" due to these drugs. I beleived that myself.. but I'm not so sure now. This post is anything but openminded. Maybe it's just this one guy right now, but I just question the whole psychedelic movement. It seems very egoistic the more I think about it.
Anyone have anything constructive to say?
reread your post and see if you can spot the egotism, I saw quite a bit myself,
I saw 'conventional' thinking regarding a personal problem, who/what do you
blame for your addictions? Where do you personaly feel you went wrong in
allowing these addictions to get out of hand, was it drugs/alcohol that brought
you do do things that got you a criminal record or was it a lapse in good judgement?
Quote:
Sorry I came off as a little harsh, but alcoholism and addiction have really devastated my life
it was by your own actions and inactions that your life is 'devistated', placing
blame on an affliction is just another way of saying "it's not my fault" when in
reality, it was you that made the choices, you decided to take a efw drinks,
you decided you enjoyed it, you decided to have more, you decided to use the
drugs, you decided you liked them, you decided to continue using or to stop,
isnt that the forst step in recovery, deciding to stop, you cant quit a disease.
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
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Re: A million pieces. [Re: Phluck]
#5150878 - 01/07/06 01:51 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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you do realize, on the site, it states "no one is born an addict"?
Quote:
The A1 allele of the dopamine receptor gene DRD2 is more common in people addicted to alcohol or cocaine"
Ok, this may be true.... but it doesn't show cause>effect. All tests are going to be flawed because they have to use people whom are already addicts. All findings would have to be based on the ASSUMPTION that DRD2 was a CAUSE and not an effect of addiction.
Quote:
"Alcoholism is rare in people with two copies of the ALDH*2 gene variation"
*above statement applies here as well*
Quote:
Why does one person get addicted when another one doesn't? It's not because they're inferior assholes or something, it's a lot of different factors, from the attitudes they have towards their vices and how they should be used (Which are created by their education, their upbringing, etc...), to the availability, to their economic status, to their personality traits as determined by genetics.
yes! attitudes! thats about it. It is your view on life. It is your reality. Yes, your reality is shaped by external factors like your parents, tv, art, economic status..... but in the end, it is still YOU being addicted.
what is this crap about "a multitude of different factors...."? why isnt it IN OTHER WORDS "life"?
shitty parents: life
economic distress: life
girlfriend left you: life
got fired: life
also... personality traits are not genetic in any way.... that statement is about as scientific as "blondes have more fun".
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: A million pieces. [Re: Phluck]
#5150947 - 01/07/06 02:19 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phluck said:
There is absolutely no conclusive evidence that addiction is genetic
Had it occurred to you to do some research on this topic?
Just a couple facts From:
http://gslc.genetics.utah.edu/units/addiction/genetics/index.cfm
"The A1 allele of the dopamine receptor gene DRD2 is more common in people addicted to alcohol or cocaine"
"Alcoholism is rare in people with two copies of the ALDH*2 gene variation"
So why do you think that is? Coincidence?
Or are you going to tell me that genetics is all a big hoax set up by the pharmaceutical industry?
your 2 little quotes simply state that addiction is more common in people with
specific gene sets, the common statement about addiction and genetics is that if
your parents were addicts, you are geneticly predesposed to addiction, in
actuality, it's false, thats dominantly environmental and behavioral influences
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
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Re: A million pieces. [Re: Phluck]
#5151029 - 01/07/06 02:41 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
When something is your fault... is it because you were raised that way? Born that way? And if the answer to both those questions is no... what is it then? Is it just "your fault", no explanation, and you deserve to be punished?
yes... (except for punishment. Im no judge or jury)
Quote:
Serious addictions aren't just overuse for a period of time. They are using drugs for many years, until it becomes such an integral part of your lifestyle that quitting would force you to confront crippling boredom for hours everyday. And they aren't something you do to yourself all at once.
I dare you to give anyone IV heroin for many years and see if they dont become addicted.
Quote:
But I've also smoked pot for many years. Maybe too much, often I waste money on it. But I don't want to quit, even if I know I should, I can't get the desire to quit. How could I force myself to want to quit? My emotions aren't controlled by an on/off switch, I don't know that there's any way to magically do that.
so now, you are saying that Willpower and Desire to quit are genetic as well?
as well as emotions are genetic? or the lack of power to control them? that is genetic as well?
Quote:
What's the use in blaming people entirely for their addictions? Sure it gives us all a warm glowy feeling of righteous superiority... we get to say "I'm not an addict because I'm a good person who has self control. Those serious addicts are just a bunch of losers who deserve what they get."
what is the use in letting people belive that they are not the source for their addiction?
No one is trying to feel superior for overcoming, or not being an addict. I dont think any headway is going to be made using ASSUMPTIONS and vast generalizations like "there are many factors which contribute....".
Quote:
But does it allow us to address the problems that create addiction? What if we could find out exactly what factors in upbringing are most likely to lead to addiction, and teach people how to teach their children? What if we could find out who was born with the kind of personality most likely to get addicted and give them some extra help?
LOL.... born with the personality....
basically your entire post was just multiple paragraphs trying to justify and shirk responibility onto external sources. As if there is nothing in this world which can be directly linked to being "your fault".
Why did you kill this person? I didnt... the gun did. Because this guy spit in my face, he made me pull this trigger.
why are you drunk at work? I have a disease, in which I immensly enjoy beer far more than any of you, also, my girlfriend left me, and my parents beat me for being a bedwetter when i was 8.
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the free thinker
salesman
Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 1,877
Loc: twin cities
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
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Listen, this comes down to one thing:
Whether or not we beleive that addiction is a disease.
Fuck it, I'm done here. Different beleifs, that is all that is causing this argument.
I'm not gonna get into the shit cuz I'll just get pissed again... but I stand bymy opinion that addiction is a disease and it is a powerful and destructive force in the lives of many people. No, I do not beleive that AA is "the only way" but I think people like James Frey should be given credit for doing what he has done. And psilo.. you STILL haven't read the book... so please refrain from comment in this regard.
As for Prisoner.. you're right.. I do have an ego, and it does show in my posts. I can see that very easily. But having an strong ego does not make people arrogant and it does not mean they are close minded. I can see where psilo is coming from, and I simply don't agree with it. My personal experience prevents me from agreeing with him.. that's all.
I could be wrong, but questions like these, when you get down to it, they cannot be proven wrong or right. You can always argue one way or another. Know what I mean?
There's a bunch of research, statistics, technical data info and surveys.. and obviously it doesn't mean shit because people will beleive what they want to beleive.
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