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OfflineDeviate
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Re: anyone had/have adverse health effects from smoking pot? [Re: Fluxburn]
    #5136832 - 01/04/06 12:21 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

i've clocked my resting heart rate at 180 bpm on marijuana and i wasn't panicking or feeling overly anxious at the time. that was shortly before i decided to never smoke marijuana again.


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Offlineshneck
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Re: anyone had/have adverse health effects from smoking pot? [Re: Deviate]
    #5137600 - 01/04/06 04:49 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Deviate, mate, thanks for the links, appreciate.
BTW, have you read them yourself?
"Comorbid cannabis use and panic disorder: short term and long term follow-up study."
Here's the key phrase to help you:
"66 panic disorder (PD) patients were included in our study. All the subjects met the DSM-IV diagnosis of panic disorder (n=45) or panic disorder with agoraphobia (n=21)."
Do you have any links on MJ causing MS Windows BSD? It might start like this:
"66 PCs with frequent Windows blue screen of death problems were included in our study. In 24 of them BSD happened 1,5 times faster when marijuana smoke was blown onto them."

- Confused wrote:
"Marijuana causes a f'd up incurable form of panic disorder"
- Deviate wrote:
"his posts appear more well thought out than yours."

It appears to you so just because you don't even read the links that you provide yourself:
"RESULTS: The two groups responded equally well to paroxetine treatment as measured at the 8 weeks and 12 months follow-up visits. There were no significant effects of age, sex and duration of illness as covariates with response rates between the two groups. Also PD or PDA diagnosis did not affect the treatment response in either group. There were no significant differences in weight gain, sexual side effects or relapse rates between patients according to gender or comorbid diagnosis."
Also, it would be great for your own education if you read the whole article: http://eng.sheba.co.il/img/upload/6/600_225.pdf instead of 10-odd lines of summary at your link.

Read this for your MJ and schizophrenia link: http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_health_story_skin/442927%3fformat=html
(source: Reuters)
Enlighten yourself on your brain damage link:
"Cannabinoids promote embryonic and adult hippocampus neurogenesis and produce anxiolytic- and antidepressant-like effects." - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...1&dopt=Abstract
"It makes marijuana look more like an antidepressant and less like a drug of abuse." Amelia Eisch, University of Texas Southwestern Medical Centre, Dallas"

Like I said, folks, try unbiased scientific data, not a study of 66 people already having problems before the research started. Or at least, first read the whole study, especially in the summary section where the authors evaluate the credibility of their own research - they are wayyy much more cautious in statements than you, Deviate, and I find it really strange.

"why shouldn't personal experience be an acceptable way of learning about marijuana?"

Exactly. It's quite possible that I have smoked, eaten and drank more THC than you, the Confused mate and an army of the like added together, and it's quite probable that I lit my first joint when your parents were yet not allowed to play with matches, and it's definitely I live in a city where they smoke MJ at a rate comparable or surpassing that in Amsterdam.
I know what I'm talking about, and I read not only the briefs on Internet sites, but loads of boring tomes by world-renowned researchers like Pribram, Whitehead, Prigozhin, Jung, Iliade, etc. I know quite a few folks that walk away from them right after reading the 1st page because of the redundancy of words they can't comprehend and are too lazy to check the dictionary.

No offense, guys, I mean you no harm - just don't be so blunt in your statements, especially if they are obviously not well-thought.

Peace.


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OfflineOrganic
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Re: anyone had/have adverse health effects from smoking pot? [Re: Deviate]
    #5137632 - 01/04/06 05:20 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

just because it hasn't happened to you yet doesn't mean it won't happen to someday if you keep smoking and doesn't mean it doesn't happen to other people. [





I think every smoker will concede it happens to some smokers. Probably less than or equal to the same percent that would not enjoy mushrooms, but you don't see people saying something along the lines of I had a horrible PTSD inducing trip on mushrooms, now I fear I am losing my mind--so will all of you, it's inevitable.

Some like a scapegoat...who is to say anxiety would not have developed naturally, without marijuana or mushrooms in many of these cases, in these individuals PREDISPOSED to anxiety problems... It's so easy to look at past drug usage and blame it for something due to correlation, even easier to tell people how THEY will react to a drug by making assumptions about their habits and health. Neither is reliable.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: anyone had/have adverse health effects from smoking pot? [Re: shneck]
    #5137636 - 01/04/06 05:28 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

shneck said:
Deviate, mate, thanks for the links, appreciate.
BTW, have you read them yourself?
"Comorbid cannabis use and panic disorder: short term and long term follow-up study."
Here's the key phrase to help you:
"66 panic disorder (PD) patients were included in our study. All the subjects met the DSM-IV diagnosis of panic disorder (n=45) or panic disorder with agoraphobia (n=21)."
Do you have any links on MJ causing MS Windows BSD? It might start like this:
"66 PCs with frequent Windows blue screen of death problems were included in our study. In 24 of them BSD happened 1,5 times faster when marijuana smoke was blown onto them."

- Confused wrote:
"Marijuana causes a f'd up incurable form of panic disorder"
- Deviate wrote:
"his posts appear more well thought out than yours."

It appears to you so just because you don't even read the links that you provide yourself:
"RESULTS: The two groups responded equally well to paroxetine treatment as measured at the 8 weeks and 12 months follow-up visits. There were no significant effects of age, sex and duration of illness as covariates with response rates between the two groups. Also PD or PDA diagnosis did not affect the treatment response in either group. There were no significant differences in weight gain, sexual side effects or relapse rates between patients according to gender or comorbid diagnosis."
Also, it would be great for your own education if you read the whole article: http://eng.sheba.co.il/img/upload/6/600_225.pdf instead of 10-odd lines of summary at your link.

Read this for your MJ and schizophrenia link: http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_health_story_skin/442927%3fformat=html
(source: Reuters)
Enlighten yourself on your brain damage link:
"Cannabinoids promote embryonic and adult hippocampus neurogenesis and produce anxiolytic- and antidepressant-like effects." - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...1&dopt=Abstract
"It makes marijuana look more like an antidepressant and less like a drug of abuse." Amelia Eisch, University of Texas Southwestern Medical Centre, Dallas"

Like I said, folks, try unbiased scientific data, not a study of 66 people already having problems before the research started. Or at least, first read the whole study, especially in the summary section where the authors evaluate the credibility of their own research - they are wayyy much more cautious in statements than you, Deviate, and I find it really strange.

"why shouldn't personal experience be an acceptable way of learning about marijuana?"

Exactly. It's quite possible that I have smoked, eaten and drank more THC than you, the Confused mate and an army of the like added together, and it's quite probable that I lit my first joint when your parents were yet not allowed to play with matches, and it's definitely I live in a city where they smoke MJ at a rate comparable or surpassing that in Amsterdam.
I know what I'm talking about, and I read not only the briefs on Internet sites, but loads of boring tomes by world-renowned researchers like Pribram, Whitehead, Prigozhin, Jung, Iliade, etc. I know quite a few folks that walk away from them right after reading the 1st page because of the redundancy of words they can't comprehend and are too lazy to check the dictionary.

No offense, guys, I mean you no harm - just don't be so blunt in your statements, especially if they are obviously not well-thought.



Peace.





i knew i should've included a disclaimer when i posted those links. i don't have the time to go searching around for good studies supporting what i already know about marijuana. if those studies aren't conclusive its not my problem. i know that heavy marijuana can cause panic attacks and anxiety because it happened to me and many people i've spoken with.


Edited by Deviate (01/04/06 05:29 AM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: anyone had/have adverse health effects from smoking pot? [Re: Organic]
    #5137650 - 01/04/06 05:47 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I think every smoker will concede it happens to some smokers. Probably less than or equal to the same percent that would not enjoy mushrooms, but you don't see people saying something along the lines of I had a horrible PTSD inducing trip on mushrooms, now I fear I am losing my mind--so will all of you, it's inevitable.

actually you do see people saying that. i can put you in touch with one such person if you need proof.


Some like a scapegoat...who is to say anxiety would not have developed naturally, without marijuana or mushrooms in many of these cases, in these individuals PREDISPOSED to anxiety problems... It's so easy to look at past drug usage and blame it for something due to correlation, even easier to tell people how THEY will react to a drug by making assumptions about their habits and health. Neither is reliable.


this is the classic argument people will use to defend drugs. whatever bad things happened to you as a result of taking this drug could have happened to you anyway. obviously this is hard to disprove without heaps of scientific data. however, in my case i know that my problems were directly related to marijuana, to suggest otherwise would be like telling an alcoholic whose liver failed after decades of drinking that his liver probably would have failed anyway. it would be like telling someone who was suffering headaches after a blow to the head that he probably would have developed headaches anyway. i never made any claims on what % of the people who use marijuana will experience the problems i experienced or to what degree they will experience them. however, i stand behind what i siad. the longer you smoke marijuana and the heavier you smoke the greater the risk you pose for yourself.

it can be compared to cigarettes and lung cancer. obviously not everyone who smokes cigarettes gets lung cancer, in fact most people do not. however, would it be illocial to say that by smoking cigarettes heavily you are putting yourself at an ever greater risk for lung cancer? would it be illogical for a former smoker who survived cancer to tell other smokers that they are headed in the direction of lung cancer? i believe that by smoking marijuana heavily you are putting yourself at greater risk for poor mental health.

i used to be a huge advocate of marijuana, i used to defend it at every opportunity. i used to think marijuana was the answer to so many of the world's problems. i would not say this if i didn't know it to be true. i am not trying to use marijuana as a scapegoat either, i take full responsibility. it was my fault for continueing to smoke marijuana even when there were signs of problems. however i am posting this so current stoners can be warned and so that when they start experiencing the slightest problem they know where continued usage can lead and they think about quitting before things get ugly.


i used to be like the people here who are saying "it won't happen to me". i believed that all the cases i read about people having these sorts of problems were simply due to them not being able to handle marijuana and not understanding it, or that they were fucked up to begin with and would have developed the problems anyway as you suggested. i am posting this to let everyone know that it CAN happen to you.


Edited by Deviate (01/04/06 05:58 AM)


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OfflineOrganic
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Re: anyone had/have adverse health effects from smoking pot? [Re: Deviate]
    #5137690 - 01/04/06 06:27 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

actually you do see people saying that. i can put you in touch with one such person if you need proof.




I've been around a while and I've seen it, believe me. You definetly see more blame on marijuana though due to the inherit nature of this site, just as you would see people directly linking psychedelics and insanity on overgrow...

Quote:

this is the classic argument people will use to defend drugs.




Mental problems are a lot different than physical problems...I don't see how you can equate cigarette caused lung cancer and pot-induced anxiety, but I digress, as I said, no one seems to have a problem conceding it CAN happen... The problem is that you can't say it "WILL HAPPEN" to others because it is your personal experience.

Is it logical to think that at least 1 in 1000 shroom trips will be "bad", or negative in nature? Yes...that is likely.

Is it logical to think that at least 1 in 1000 marijuana episodes will result in anxiety and paranoia, and an overall unenjoyable experience? Yes, that is very likely, as paranoia IS a common direct effect of smoking marijuana.

Is it logical to think that because of this episode, you are on an unstoppable path to schizophrenia, irreversable panic disorder, and at serious risk of a cardiac episode...no. There is quite a leap from standard psychoactive effects of the drug to LIFE-LONG mental health issues... There are no absolutes in this case, everyone WILL react differently. This is the major point I am trying to get across.

Some smokers will recognize that paranoia, the anxiety, the decreased motivation as effects of the drug that occur in most everyone. They will be able to put it behind them after the high is gone and live another day, just like most experienced trippers are able to do after a mind-shattering trip, since not every 'ego-loss' experience leads to permanent loss of self.

Mental health issues can arise in anyone, no one denies. It is safe to say "It hasn't happened to me" if it hasn't. It is also OK to be a pot smoker for 60 years and say the same thing, and it may very well never happen. A lot of it seems to be in the attitude toward the drug...if you are someone that can't stop compulsively smoking when you get a bag--waste all of your money and time you could spend furthering yourself, making marijuana the LARGEST part of your life on a pedestal, then of course the constant common effects of the drug will always be on your mind, because you are always under the influence and obessing over the drug...'Why am I always paranoid and anxious? Could it be because that is an effect of THC which is constantly in my brain?" :flowstone: Different individuals will have different reactions to 'letting it go'...when they have to  stop smoking.

Those that seem to take it in stride, and take the time for sober reflection, recognize the separation between the effects of the drug and their natural state, and can turn it 'off' and 'on' if you will seem to have less problems putting down the pipe for the day to work, scrounging up money for the next bag, and they also have increased ability to regulate the way marijuana effects them through experience...just like any seasoned tripper can pinpoint every effect from the first wave of psilocybin flowing into their brain, and rationalize or at the least recognize the effect of the drug, and seperate it from what is really happening.


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Offlineshneck
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Re: anyone had/have adverse health effects from smoking pot? [Re: Organic]
    #5137717 - 01/04/06 07:09 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

"i don't have the time to go searching around for good studies supporting what i already know about marijuana."

That's the problem, mate. People tend to make statements without even trying to first understand what they say. I'm sorry you don't have time for good studies. Could it be because you're too busy with just posting for the sake of posting?
Maybe you shoud try first read, then post for a change? Even if you will have less time for posting left, that might not be a such big loss, mate, take your time.

While I was writing I saw another great post of yours, mate.
It's difficult as always to argue with you, your arguments are killers:
"obviously this is hard to disprove without heaps of scientific data. however, in my case i know that my problems were directly related to marijuana"
I thought of writing: "In my case I know I've got no problems directly, inderectly or in any other way related to pot. In fact, in my case I know I fixed quite a bunch of problems thanks to pot. So, this makes it a universal law, case closed."
Then I thought, WTF cares of my case if everyone talks global here?

So, I guess, I'll better stick to "heaps of scientific data" in the future, however boring and helpless tactics it might seem 2 you, dude.

Anyway, it's good to have a variety, so that everyone could choose what to trust better.

Take it easy, mate, peace 2 every1.


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Offlineconfuzed
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Re: anyone had/have adverse health effects from smoking pot? [Re: shneck]
    #5137771 - 01/04/06 08:27 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

"Cannabinoids promote embryonic and adult hippocampus neurogenesis and produce anxiolytic- and antidepressant-like effects." - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...1&dopt=Abstract
"It makes marijuana look more like an antidepressant and less like a drug of abuse." Amelia Eisch, University of Texas Southwestern Medical Centre, Dallas"


I read your link, and I hate to be the one to break it to you, however the cannabinoid being discussed here is a synthetic cannabinoid, HU210. So next time, before you judge other people's analytical skills, make sure yours are up to scratch. :tongue:

Quote:

Quote by schneck: It appears to you so just because you don't even read the links that you provide yourself:




Quote:


Endogenous Cannabinoids Take the Edge off Neuroendocrine Responses to Stress

One notable exception to the cannabinoid inhibition of hypothalamic neuroendocrine function is the reported stimulatory effect that exogenous cannabinoids have on the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis. Activation of the HPA axis is the main neuroendocrine response to both psychological and physiological stress. Thus, stress leads to the activation of CRH neurons in the PVN and results in CRH release onto the anterior pituitary gland, which triggers ACTH secretion from the anterior pituitary into the systemic circulation, which, in turn, stimulates the synthesis and systemic release of corticosteroids by the adrenal glands. Exogenous cannabinoids, rather than suppressing this neuroendocrine axis, have been shown to enhance the secretion of the HPA hormones (11, 12). :smile:


Hillard and colleagues (15) put this issue to rest in their report in the current issue of Endocrinology, in which they show that endocannabinoids suppress the HPA response to stress (Fig. 1 ). Furthermore, their data confirm earlier reports that endocannabinoids exert a tonic inhibitory tone on the HPA axis (13), possibly via direct basal inhibition of the CRH neurons.
FULL ARTICLE: http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/145/12/5429<br />
<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
Note that that reference to hypersecretion comes from the following journal, and is titled the Endocrine effects of marijuana, it isn't some obsure synthetic analogue.

Brown TT, Dobs AS 2002 Endocrine effects of marijuana. J Clin Pharmacol 42(11 Suppl):90S?96S  :smile:


Edited by confuzed (01/04/06 08:31 AM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: anyone had/have adverse health effects from smoking pot? [Re: shneck]
    #5137777 - 01/04/06 08:35 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

actually one reason i don't have time to search for proper studies is because i don't really know how to find studies. all i really know how to do is type in some search terms to google and then sort the through the thousands of results, most of which are junk. i'm sure there is a better way to sort through the informatio and if i knew what it was i would be much more inclined to undertake such as task. if anyone could tell me how to access the medical data currently available on marijuana i would be happy to look into the matter.



"In my case I know I've got no problems directly, inderectly or in any other way related to pot. In fact, in my case I know I fixed quite a bunch of problems thanks to pot. So, this makes it a universal law, case closed."

but you have added one sentence which fully changes the meaning. i never said it was a universal law, only that in my case it would be silly to suggest the problems i experienced weren't do to marijuana. it would be as if i got really drunk, woke up the next day with a hangover and then when i mentioned it to someone they suggested my hangover wasn't do to the alcohol i consumed and demanded scientific proof that alcohol causes hangovers. in this case i would have to say that i know my body best and i am the one who is most able to determine if my hangover was due to the alcohol or to other factors.

similary, because i experienced a hangover it is logical to assume that other people who drink alcohol excessively might also experience hangovers. if i visit alcohol message boards and speak with other alcohol users and continously see reports of hangovers, then this is enough for me to assume that what happened to me is not merely an isolated incident and potentially has implications for other people.

if you smoked marijuana and it fixed a bunch of problems for you, you could then apply the same logic as i did. if you survayed other users and found marijuana also fixerd their problems you could then conclude that this was also a potential effect of marijuana use. and i personally do believe marijuana has the power to heal so i don't even find this to be a particularly far fetched idea. so, both of our experiences with marijuana can have meaning. i never claimed that every one who smokes marijuana ends up in ruin as you seem to be suggesting. i simply said that there are risks and negative consequences associated with marijuana use and from what ive seen they are common enough that anyone who is a heavy marijuana user should be aware of them.

from your experience, you might conclude that everyone who is a heavy marijuana user should be aware that marijuana can be used to solve personal problems. and i would be in complete agreement with that. however, this doesn't render my conclusion invalid as you perhaps are implying. it simply demonstrates that marijuana can have both positive and negative affects. i am only in this thread because i want to share some of the negative affects marijuana has had on me and people ive spoken to so other stoners will be better able to look out for them and stop smoking marijuana before they progress too far. if this thread asked "what benefits have you experienced from using marijuana?" then i would have responded with the benefits i feel marijuana has had on me.

perhaps confuzed was too universal in his description of the course of events likely to be experienced by a marijuana user and i made a mistake in siding with thim. i simply felt that his post well articulated the very real dangers associated with heavy marijuana use and we should be applauding him rather then trying to discredit him.


Edited by Deviate (01/04/06 08:46 AM)


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OfflineSpooge
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Re: anyone had/have adverse health effects from smoking pot? [Re: Asante]
    #5137816 - 01/04/06 09:27 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Cannabis gave me several 100 near heart attacks (angina pectoris) during the first half-hours of toking up. Resting heartrate 90, stoned 120.
But hey, it's harmless right?
So I smoked on.

Then on December 27 2002 cannabis gave me a heart attack. ICU, brink of death, a handful of pharms every day for the rest of my life..

It turned out I have this rare genetic heart condition which makes cannabis for me more ischemic than for others, meaning it increases cardiac oxygen demand more than a jog does.

If your heart starts to asphyxiate you get the chest pains of Angina Pectoris, if it does so to the point of heart muscle dying off you've got a heart attack.

So the harmless little weed gave me a fullblown heart attack and several hundred near misses.
There's no such thing as a harmless drug.




I'd bet quite a bit of money on the fact that I bet I have the same exact thing. There was one really bad time where I know my body went into shock because I was so panicked.

I was at the hospital once, but they just treated it as a normal panic attack situation. I had to sit in a crowded waiting room, panicked to the max, for about 30 minutes and then they put me in a room for another 30 minutes and then by the time they were ready to look at me, my heart rate had fell and I was quite a bit calmer by then. They hooked up all these little wires to my different pulses(the name of the test escapes me?) and found nothing wrong. Then they tried to feed me some lorazepam or something and I totally wouldn't have it.

But I know that there's something else going on. I have a strong mind and can work through the toughest psychedelic experiences...but give me half a joint and I'm through the roof like I just got run over by a car.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: anyone had/have adverse health effects from smoking pot? [Re: Spooge]
    #5137976 - 01/04/06 11:19 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

A heart attack gives an elevated blood Troponins level which is telltale. Angina pectoris subsides if you take a nitrate or a nitrite (poppers) whereas panic would be aggrevated by it.

Perhaps a cardiac thing did happen to you, or perhaps it was "all in the mind", which by no way makes it necessarily "harmless".

With some people weed produces anxiety/panic states very often.
Many people have anxiety invade their weed experience after prolonged use, like described.
Many people have anxiety invade their weed experience after, or with the progression of, sessions with psychedelics such as mushrooms and LSD.

All of this is true and is readily recognised by just about any internetter who spent substantial time reading alot of weed posts.
Paranoia, anxiety, depression, apathy and low self esteem tend to go hand in hand with heavy pot use in some people, whether it is directly caused by cannabis or not.

For some people meth acts like a sleeping pill and others are flung into a bloodlust frenzy if they happen to take a beer with their benzo. Because we are all so different you can't equate your response to everybody's, as someone put in his clever sig.

And Swami: i'm really not an angry person and if everything in the universe is governed by a kind of karma then so would my heart attack be, it stemming off a genetic anomaly readily seen with endoscopy.

Shall we continue on-topic?


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Offlineshneck
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Re: anyone had/have adverse health effects from smoking pot? [Re: Deviate]
    #5138531 - 01/04/06 02:23 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Wow, boys, you're stubborn!
Could you just tell me if I hurt your pride or you're really interested? If former, I'll just beat it, if latter - let me proceed, and get ready.

Confuzed, you're realy confused, aren't you? You seem to hate reading, and love writing so much.

Have you read THE FULL PDF, not the 10-line abstract? The one in the TOP LEFT CORNER, that reads FREE full text article? It's free, why don't you just try it once for a change, instead of flaming and accusing me?
Since you're so lazy, or in case the text is too complicated for you, here's a small quote simple enough for you to dig in:
"The recent finding of prominently decreased hippocampal neurogenesis in CB1-knockout mice (24) suggests that CB1 receptor activation by endogenous, plant-derived, or synthetic cannabinoids may promote hippocampal neurogenesis."
It's line 15 of the Introduction, you can count, right?
I could even explain you what is "plant-derived" cannabinoids and why researchers are trying to synthesize them instead of using the "plant-derived" material, but being an evil kind I'll leave it to yourself to wonder about.

"It makes marijuana look more like an antidepressant and less like a drug of abuse." Amelia Eisch, University of Texas Southwestern Medical Centre, Dallas"
If you read the full article, which aint't trendy these days I guess, you would find out that the second quote has nothing to do with the first one, and belongs to University of Texas Southwestern Medical Centre, not to University of Saskatchewan research.
Any grown-up objections to Mrs. Eisch's statement?
BTW, can you spot the word marijuana in this quote? If not, try again, I pin my hopes on you.

Let's move over to the quote of yours now:
"One notable exception to the cannabinoid inhibition of hypothalamic neuroendocrine function is the reported stimulatory effect that exogenous cannabinoids have on the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis. ... Exogenous cannabinoids, rather than suppressing this neuroendocrine axis, have been shown to enhance the secretion of the HPA hormones (11, 12)." Then there comes the smiley.

You're nasty, man! Just a couple of abstracts below you could find this:
"Surprisingly, they found that systemic administration of an exogenous cannabinoid, CP55940, reduced the stress-induced secretion of the HPA hormones (15), which runs counter to earlier reports of activation of HPA hormone release with exogenous cannabinoids (12, 16). This discrepancy may be related to the different endpoints considered in the respective studies, basal vs. stress-induced circulating HPA hormone levels, or it may be caused by the different doses of exogenous cannabinoids employed in the different studies, higher doses in previous studies leading to HPA axis activation and the relatively low dose used in the current study causing HPA suppression."
And if yow dared to go to 12 and 16 in brackets, you'd be even more puzzled. Too lazy?
Let daddy do it for you: "Intracerebroventricular injection of anandamide or THC (50 or 150 micrograms/rat) increased significantly the serum levels of ACTH and corticosterone in a dose-dependent manner and caused a pronounced depletion of CRF-41 in the median eminence. These data suggest that anandamide parallels THC in activating the HPA axis via mediation of a central mechanism which involves the secretion of CRF-41."

Hear my words, mate, I have no intention to keep the last word to myself and to win the forum battles, I'm not interested in defending my renome here - I'm too old now, and the days I was like you are long gone.
I just get quite irritated and sad when I read such an ignorant anti-MJ BS on a drug-related forum - there is more than enough such crap in the hypocritic media, in babbling of corrupted politicians and howling drug war dogs.
Especially, from the obviously young guys like you who supposedly are the ones to make John Lennon's dream come true.
Especially when they are trying to teach me something they have little understanding of, or start juggling the quotes in silly hope they can fool somebody, hell, I?m so mad now that I?m afraid I?m getting my first incurable tripolar extraintracerebroventriculobrachial disorder, let me smash that monitor, it sure will help, I know, Shwack!-Dzenggg!-Bang!
The end.

And here comes the disclamer.
Boys, don?t get mad at my cocky language, I didn?t mean to offend you ? it?s just a trick to make you read the post more attentively and make you be more careful when answering.

Take care and check your posts twice before trying to teach an old dog some new tricks he already knows. Peace.


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Offlineshneck
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Registered: 09/16/05
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Last seen: 5 months, 29 days
Re: anyone had/have adverse health effects from smoking pot? [Re: shneck]
    #5138724 - 01/04/06 03:08 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

"actually one reason i don't have time to search for proper studies is because i don't really know how to find studies. all i really know how to do is type in some search terms to google and then sort the through the thousands of results, most of which are junk. i'm sure there is a better way to sort through the informatio and if i knew what it was i would be much more inclined to undertake such as task. if anyone could tell me how to access the medical data currently available on marijuana i would be happy to look into the matter."

Just filter the junk using the common sense. If it?s Coach Dan?s Chalk Talk on Juju ? most probably it?s just ravings of an old fart whose brain is screwed with crap he was fed all his life or, much worse, who earns his living by propagating this same BS. If it?s, say JCI resourse (check my older post) ? most probably it?s quite decent source. Still, keep in mind that even the most decent sources may be wrong since so little is known about human brain and mind; BTW, most of scientists, unlike us, stay away from stating their point of view as a final virtue, they tend to use words like ?probably?, ?seems reasonable to suggest?, and often finish with ?still, more research is needed in this respect?.
Sometimes, anecdotal data may be more true than any scientific results. That?s why I suggest that you try googling Steve Kubby, you won?t be disappointed.

"but you have added one sentence which fully changes the meaning. i never said it was a universal law, only that in my case it would be silly to suggest the problems i experienced weren't do to marijuana. it would be as if i got really drunk, woke up the next day with a hangover and then when i mentioned it to someone they suggested my hangover wasn't do to the alcohol i consumed and demanded scientific proof that alcohol causes hangovers. in this case i would have to say that i know my body best and i am the one who is most able to determine if my hangover was due to the alcohol or to other factors."

Man, don?t be so serious, the ?universal truth? was just a joke. What I wanted to say was that if your face gets royal magenta shade after you eat a couple of strawberries, that doesn?t automatically means strawberries make people become red in the face. It?s just an individual case, and you can?t declare, for example, that pot leads to psychotic disorders just because you had such an unhappy experience. Keep in mind that millions of other people could enjoy the berries or the Green Queen if you did not rush to hasty conclusions.

"if you smoked marijuana and it fixed a bunch of problems for you, you could then apply the same logic as i did."

No mate, and I have just explained you why. It could make me a Cryptonite Man, but it could also cripple crowds of others, that?s why I wrote that I?d better stay with scientific research - however immature the medical science is, it?s still more credible than Shneck?s own experience.

"i never claimed that every one who smokes marijuana ends up in ruin as you seem to be suggesting. i simply said that there are risks and negative consequences associated with marijuana use and from what ive seen they are common enough that anyone who is a heavy marijuana user should be aware of them."

And I never said you did, initially, I was replying to the ?incurable psykko-schmykko-disorder? BS, haven?t you noticed?
As for common marijuana usage consequencies, I?m too tired to get over it again, sorry.

"it simply demonstrates that marijuana can have both positive and negative affects. i am only in this thread because i want to share some of the negative affects marijuana has had on me and people ive spoken to so other stoners will be better able to look out for them and stop smoking marijuana before they progress too far. if this thread asked "what benefits have you experienced from using marijuana?" then i would have responded with the benefits i feel marijuana has had on me."

Words of a wise man, Deviate, bravo. If you said that before, who would dare to argue? Just let me remind me that the argument was about the blunt statements that pot leads to nervous breakdowns ? and the fact is it doesn?t in most cases, moreover, it?s being used as a cure for that same problem.

"perhaps confuzed was too universal in his description of the course of events likely to be experienced by a marijuana user and i made a mistake in siding with thim. i simply felt that his post well articulated the very real dangers associated with heavy marijuana use and we should be applauding him rather then trying to discredit him."

I just believe Confuzed was wrong, and I still do, although I would change my point of view readily if he provides a batch of solid proof.
Time to go! Take care, guys, rave with you later.


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Offlineph30n1x
the next jerry

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 201
Loc: just a few notes away
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: anyone had/have adverse health effects from smoking pot? [Re: shneck]
    #5139348 - 01/04/06 05:42 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I'm pretty much speechless from shneck's posts. They are very will written and very well supported. I agree, as shneck did, with one of Deviate's posts:
"it simply demonstrates that marijuana can have both positive and negative affects. i am only in this thread because i want to share some of the negative affects marijuana has had on me and people ive spoken to so other stoners will be better able to look out for them and stop smoking marijuana before they progress too far. if this thread asked "what benefits have you experienced from using marijuana?" then i would have responded with the benefits i feel marijuana has had on me."
If i had to sum this whole thing up, id say: Don't be an idiot and totally abuse pot and expect no negative effects. Use it wisely and safely, treat her as you would her to treat you. I remember in one of shneck's reports that it said something to the effect of: "At high doses of THC (I think they were refering to THC), the HPA axis was activated but at moderatly low doses, THC suppressed the HPA axis" This somewhat backs up my previous statement about not totally abusing mary. Bottom line, its all individual. For some, "moderate" could be more frequent than others etc. If your body's complaining, your doing something wrong. Peace


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Offlineconfuzed
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Registered: 12/15/05
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Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: anyone had/have adverse health effects from smoking pot? [Re: shneck]
    #5139554 - 01/04/06 06:33 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

:heart: :heart: :heart:

Wow! You have quite an attitude problem, and your disclaimers fall woefully short of covering that up, and you, far from being an exonoration of the drug - you're far more of an indictment of it than even I claim it deserves. What I claim it deserves, is not the harmless status that it frequently is portrayed to have, but rather that it can be insideous in nature, and it can transform from one's best pal to a daunting enemy gradually.


Have you read THE FULL PDF, not the 10-line abstract?

Which link did you provide? It was to the abstract, the reason I don't look for free full texts at PubMed is because they're so uncommon in my experience. However, here's my amended response: First of all, it was conducted on rats - not humans, which is something entirely different as the author himself explains elsewhere on the net, and secondly, what a completely fanciful, nigh useless study conclusion for the vast majority of humans, it's not only claiming that it's an antidepressant, but also that it's an anxiolytic, and improves learning. Furthermore, it goes on to state that '...cell proliferation is decreased in animal models of depression or stress and anxiety paradigms...' and lastly, I tell you again that they used a potent synthetic exogenous cannabinoid in this study conducted on rats, and that it is at best reasonable speculation that plant-derived cannabinoids might cause cell proliferation (at a decreased rate) in the hippocampus - of rats.

I think this is a case where it's best to rely on anecdotes as you recommend further down in your rant. Having said that, everyone's different, if you or others find that weed is an antidepressant, improves anxiety and learning, or anything else then that's great.

You're nasty, man! Just a couple of abstracts below you could find this:
"Surprisingly, they found that systemic administration of an exogenous cannabinoid, CP55940, reduced the stress-induced secretion of the HPA hormones (15), which runs counter to earlier reports of activation of HPA hormone release with exogenous cannabinoids (12, 16).


Thanks man.

That's right. However, it's clearly fallacious since almost all anecdotes and evidence point towards HPA-axis activation, hence the tachycardia and the scrambling by the authors to explain why the later results reported by Hillard suggested otherwise.


I just believe Confuzed was wrong, and I still do,

Wrong about what?

I stand by it all, but none of it was meant to be received as a sweeping statement that marijuana can and will always lead to a disorder as you interpreted it. Looking at it now, it definetly comes across as a generalisation, but Ill leave it how it is, just to spite you. :smile:

:heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart:


Edited by confuzed (01/04/06 06:36 PM)


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Offlinejuangomez
Hired Geek
Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 34
Loc: Seattle, Wa
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
Re: anyone had/have adverse health effects from smoking pot? [Re: ph30n1x]
    #5139697 - 01/04/06 07:17 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

In response to the first post:
I smoked for a while then started getting panic attacks. I chalked it up to CO2-induced panic. Now I'm the one-hit-wonder, and as long as everyone around me respects that it's all good. Usually my girlfriend and I compromise: 1 shot for 1 bowl, and I never have to drive :laugh:

Micromachines Man: Your experience may differ. Discontinue regiment and immediately consult a physician if you experience negative side effects while on this medication. Not recommended for pregnant women and those with a family history of heart failure. Party responsibly: wear a condom.


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: anyone had/have adverse health effects from smoking pot? [Re: confuzed]
    #5141629 - 01/05/06 01:42 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Just filter the junk using the common sense. If it?s Coach Dan?s Chalk Talk on Juju ? most probably it?s just ravings of an old fart whose brain is screwed with crap he was fed all his life or, much worse, who earns his living by propagating this same BS. If it?s, say JCI resourse (check my older post) ? most probably it?s quite decent source. Still, keep in mind that even the most decent sources may be wrong since so little is known about human brain and mind; BTW, most of scientists, unlike us, stay away from stating their point of view as a final virtue, they tend to use words like ?probably?, ?seems reasonable to suggest?, and often finish with ?still, more research is needed in this respect?.
Sometimes, anecdotal data may be more true than any scientific results. That?s why I suggest that you try googling Steve Kubby, you won?t be disappointed.


Man, don?t be so serious, the ?universal truth? was just a joke. What I wanted to say was that if your face gets royal magenta shade after you eat a couple of strawberries, that doesn?t automatically means strawberries make people become red in the face. It?s just an individual case, and you can?t declare, for example, that pot leads to psychotic disorders just because you had such an unhappy experience. Keep in mind that millions of other people could enjoy the berries or the Green Queen if you did not rush to hasty conclusions.

this was never what i claimed and if you had read my posts you should know this. i specifically stated that i talked to several other people who experienced the same affects as well as witnessed the affects being posted about on marijuana related message board over and over again, in addition to seeing them reported on erowid and hinted at by scientists and psychiatrists. now assuming i ate strawberries and they made me red in the face and then i talked to many other people who ate strawberries and became red in the face and witnessed people posting about how they had become read in the face after eating strawberries on the internet over and over again, and heard that some studies indicate strawberries probably can cause you to become red in the face, i dont think it would be unreasonable for me to conclude that strawberries can make people become red in the face.

No mate, and I have just explained you why. It could make me a Cryptonite Man, but it could also cripple crowds of others, that?s why I wrote that I?d better stay with scientific research - however immature the medical science is, it?s still more credible than Shneck?s own experience.

see above for why this doesn't address my point. i already explained that what i experienced was not an isolated incident. in addition, immature or inconclusive science isn't always better than first hand experience. take drug recalls for example. if a drug was determined safe by a few minimal studies but real people taking the drug are reporting terrible reactions, it would not be wise to wait for science to conclusively prove that the drug was capable of causing those reactions before issuing a warning about it.

Words of a wise man, Deviate, bravo. If you said that before, who would dare to argue? Just let me remind me that the argument was about the blunt statements that pot leads to nervous breakdowns ? and the fact is it doesn?t in most cases, moreover, it?s being used as a cure for that same problem.
the fact that it doesn't lead to nervous break downs in most cases doesn't mean that its not a significant danger. cigarette smoke doesn't lead to lung cancer in most cases. should we therefore try to discredit those who claim cigarette smoking leads to lung cancer?

I just believe Confuzed was wrong, and I still do, although I would change my point of view readily if he provides a batch of solid proof.
Time to go! Take care, guys, rave with you later.


wrong on what counts?


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Offlineshneck
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Re: anyone had/have adverse health effects from smoking pot? [Re: Deviate]
    #5142231 - 01/05/06 08:16 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Guys, you won.


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Offlineph30n1x
the next jerry

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 201
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Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: anyone had/have adverse health effects from smoking pot? [Re: Deviate]
    #5143147 - 01/05/06 03:03 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
the fact that it doesn't lead to nervous break downs in most cases doesn't mean that its not a significant danger. cigarette smoke doesn't lead to lung cancer in most cases. should we therefore try to discredit those who claim cigarette smoking leads to lung cancer?



Actually, it says right on the cigarette lable that smoking them does cause lung cancer.


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Offlinekhronikind
Stoner
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Registered: 12/07/08
Posts: 73
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: anyone had/have adverse health effects from smoking pot? [Re: ph30n1x]
    #9402706 - 12/09/08 11:17 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ph30n1x said:
hey weeded420, i was just wondering what your exercise habits are, how often and what etc.  Also, has anyone consitered or tried using a vaporizer.  Ive been looking into the volcano and all my sources tell me its greaet.  Other than the costly investment one must make in order to get a good vaporizer, does anyone think its worth it.  Ive heard it gets you way more high than smoking the same amount of bud.




Actually I ran into this awesome vape invention on the internet the other day, check this shit out it uses a wierd metal thing that sucks the flame in but just disperses the heat over a metal thing and vapes the weed  called vaporstar, its only £25 and looks sweet ima pick one up soon. As for adverse health effects well it causes my allergies to act up more, but thats about it.


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