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Offlinelonestar2004
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German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike
    #5122213 - 12/30/05 01:43 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike
By Martin Walker
UPI Editor
Published December 30, 2005


WASHINGTON -- The Bush administration is preparing its NATO allies for a possible military strike against suspected nuclear sites in Iran in the New Year, according to German media reports, reinforcing similar earlier suggestions in the Turkish media.

The Berlin daily Der Tagesspiegel this week quoted "NATO intelligence sources" who claimed that the NATO allies had been informed that the United States is currently investigating all possibilities of bringing the mullah-led regime into line, including military options. This "all options are open" line has been President George W Bush's publicly stated policy throughout the past 18 months.


But the respected German weekly Der Spiegel notes "What is new here is that Washington appears to be dispatching high-level officials to prepare its allies for a possible attack rather than merely implying the possibility as it has repeatedly done during the past year."

The German news agency DDP cited "Western security sources" to claim that CIA Director Porter Goss asked Turkey's premier Recep Tayyip Erdogan to provide political and logistic support for air strikes against Iranian nuclear and military targets. Goss, who visited Ankara and met Erdogan on Dec. 12, was also reported to have to have asked for special cooperation from Turkish intelligence to help prepare and monitor the operation.

The DDP report added that Goss had delivered to the Turkish prime minister and his security aides a series of dossiers, one on the latest status of Iran's nuclear development and another containing intelligence on new links between Iran and al-Qaida.

DDP cited German security sources who added that the Turks had been assured of a warning in advance if and when the military strikes took place, and had also been given "a green light" to mount their own attacks on the bases in Iran of the PKK, (Kurdish Workers party), which Turkey sees as a separatist group responsible for terrorist attacks inside Turkey.

Goss's visit to the Turkish capital followed the rising international concern over recent statements by the new Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad that Israel should be "wiped off the map," denying the existence of Holocaust, and suggesting that Israel's Jewish population might be re-located to Europe.

In a December 23 report, the DDP agency quoted an anonymous but "high-ranking German military official" telling their reporter: "I would be very surprised if the Americans, in the mid-term, didn't take advantage of the opportunity delivered by Tehran. The Americans have to attack Iran before the country can develop nuclear weapons. After that would be too late."

The DDP report also said that several friendly Arab governments, including Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Oman and Pakistan, had also been informed in general terms that the Pentagon was preparing contingency plans, including "the option of air strikes," in the event of the new Iranian government precipitating a crisis.

Arab diplomatic sources have told United Press International that they have been given no briefings on any policy change beyond President Bush's "all option are open."

Bush's most recent such statement in public came on Aug. 13, during an interview at his ranch in Crawford, Texas, when he told Israeli TV: "As I say, all options are on the table. The use of force is the last option for any president and, you know, we've used force in the recent past to secure our country."

Other NATO sources have told United Press International that "all this may be mood music, a way to step up the diplomatic pressure on Tehran."

It is possible that leaks from NATO and German security sources are part of a ploy to convince the Iranian government that the Americans and their NATO allies are in dead earnest when they say a nuclear-armed Iran would not be tolerated, and that Iran had better start negotiating seriously.

But the German media speculation about the supposed U.S. plans has been fueled by a number of high-profile visits to Turkey this month, including trips by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, by the CIA's Porter Goss and by the FBI Director Robert Mueller, who also delivered U.S. intelligence reports on Iranian backing for PKK operations aimed against Turkey. There have also been some significant Turkish visits to Washington, as reported by Der Spiegel.

"Two weeks ago, Yasar Buyukanit, the commander of the Turkish army and probable future chief of staff of the country's armed forces, flew to Washington. After the visit he made a statement that relations between the Turkish army and the American army were once again on an excellent footing," Der Spiegel reported Friday.

"Buyukanit's warm and fuzzy words, contrasted greatly with his past statements that if the United States and the Kurds in northern Iraq proved incapable of containing the PKK in the Kurd-dominated northern part of the country and preventing it from attacking Turkey, Buyukanit would march into northern Iraq himself," the German weekly added.

The CIA Director's Dec. 12 call on the Turkish prime minister last for over an hour, far longer than customary for a mere courtesy call, and followed an even longer meeting with senior staff of MIT, Turkish intelligence. The Turkish Daily Cumhuriyet reported on December 13: "Goss also asked Ankara to be ready for a possible U.S. air operation against Iran and Syria."

Der Spiegel noted Friday that the latest high-level visitor to the Turkish premier was NATO Secretary-General Jaap De Hoop Scheffer. This is not unusual, since Turkey is a member of NATO, but the coincidence of these various trips prompted Spiegel to comment "the number of American and NATO security officials heading to Ankara has increased dramatically."

"In Berlin, the issue is largely being played down," Der Spiegel reported Friday. "During his inaugural visit with U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld in Washington last week, the possibility of a U.S. air strike against Iran 'had not been an issue,' for new German Defense Minister Franz Josef Jung, a Defense Ministry spokesman told Spiegel."

The original story in the German press which provoked the wider media furore was written for the DDP agency by a veteran reporter on security and intelligence matters, Udo Ulfkotte, who has in the past been criticized in the German media for being "too close to sources at Germany's foreign intelligence agency, the BND" (Bundesnachrichtendienst).

At the same time, Ulfkotte has himself come under scrutiny by German security services, and his home and offices have been repeatedly searched in the course of inquiries into allegations that he had published official secrets.
http://www.wpherald.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20051230-124328-9385r


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5122438 - 12/30/05 02:39 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Wow So turkey has the greenlight to attack Kurdish PKK. I wonder how things in Iraq will change.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #5123590 - 12/30/05 06:52 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

This is all in the name of freedom.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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InvisibleSourceLimit
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: badchad]
    #5123619 - 12/30/05 06:58 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

This is all in the name of democracy


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: SourceLimit]
    #5123759 - 12/30/05 07:38 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Bush should ask Congress to debate the best plan of action on Iran and its Nuclear ambitions and formulate a plan of action, so he doesn't have to defend the Nation all by himself, like he has for the past 4 years.

Let the Liberals present their plan and let all of America see just how weak these spineless worms on the left are.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: SourceLimit]
    #5123825 - 12/30/05 08:01 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

No it's all in the name of making sure there is only one country in the Middle East who has nuclear leverage over the others, Israel. Not to mention Israel has the most secret nuclear program in the world. But they are never subject to massive inspections or media attention...hmmmm


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


Edited by bellylard (12/30/05 08:15 PM)


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Offlinelwm
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5123853 - 12/30/05 08:13 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

When the jews say "JUMP!" the neo-cons say "HOW HIGH?". Neocons make my penile curcumference increase. They're such real men.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: lwm]
    #5123891 - 12/30/05 08:29 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

lwm said:
When the jews say "JUMP!" the neo-cons say "HOW HIGH?". Neocons make my penile curcumference increase. They're such real men.




You're a homo? Not that there's anything wrong with that.


--------------------


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5123907 - 12/30/05 08:33 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

The U.S and Israel should do it alone. Leave NATO out of it. There is no more western alliance. The U.S and Europe have parted ways, and we owe them no explanation, no plans, and absolutely NO say in any military action we conduct.


--------------------
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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5123942 - 12/30/05 08:54 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

It will be a damn shame if this happens, since we'll be doing it alone.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: Redstorm]
    #5124018 - 12/30/05 09:15 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
It will be a damn shame if this happens, since we'll be doing it alone.




Even if 100 other countries were on board we'd still be doing 99% of the work. What is the big deal?


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: looner2]
    #5124022 - 12/30/05 09:17 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

It's a big deal b/c one of these days the other UN countries are going to get sick of us invading countries when they are not a legitimate threat, and put economic sanctions on us. I, for one, do not feel like living under a system of rations.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: Redstorm]
    #5124032 - 12/30/05 09:22 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
It's a big deal b/c one of these days the other UN countries are going to get sick of us invading countries when they are not a legitimate threat, and put economic sanctions on us. I, for one, do not feel like living under a system of rations.




First off, don't worry about economic sanctions. We are fine. The most the UN could ever do would be bitch. And bitch is what they've been doing for the past 15 years. They no longer need us to die for them against the Soviets.

Second, putting legitimate and UN in the same sentence is a joke, right?


--------------------
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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: looner2]
    #5124049 - 12/30/05 09:27 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Second, putting legitimate and UN in the same sentence is a joke, right?




In your and my opinion, yes. Unfortunately, there are many people in high governmental positions around the globe who seem to disagree with us.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: Redstorm]
    #5124066 - 12/30/05 09:33 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

Second, putting legitimate and UN in the same sentence is a joke, right?




In your and my opinion, yes. Unfortunately, there are many people in high governmental positions around the globe who seem to disagree with us.




High governmental positions of other nations? Of course. No one likes THE superpower. What weapon do they use against us? Hate speech towards the weak minded of our nation in an attempt to make us feel shame for taking action that we deem necessary. Don't be a casualty!


--------------------
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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: looner2]
    #5124074 - 12/30/05 09:35 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

I don't agree that war with Iran is necessary, though. I would say it is even less necessary than it was to go to Iraq, which I also did not support.


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: looner2]
    #5124252 - 12/30/05 10:38 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

I hope you go to war with China or North Korea. You always talk like your nation is so strong and tough, but all all you do is beat the shit of of little hack job armys, and you don't even do that too well considering your might military. I'd like to see you fight a real one.


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: barfightlard]
    #5124287 - 12/30/05 10:51 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Why would you like to see that? Don't you want this world to continue existing?


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: barfightlard]
    #5124474 - 12/30/05 11:44 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

bellylard said:
You always talk like your nation is so strong and tough,

I'd like to see you fight a real one.




You mean like Canada?



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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: Redstorm]
    #5125337 - 12/31/05 08:54 AM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
I don't agree that war with Iran is necessary, though. I would say it is even less necessary than it was to go to Iraq, which I also did not support.




But if it does happen, what will you do? Placate to the U.N/E.U crowd? Steal their arguments and apologize to the world for what America has done?


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



Edited by looner2 (12/31/05 09:30 AM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: Redstorm]
    #5125754 - 12/31/05 01:24 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

Second, putting legitimate and UN in the same sentence is a joke, right?




In your and my opinion, yes. Unfortunately, there are many people in high governmental positions around the globe who seem to disagree with us.




I seriously doubt this. I suspect they are practicing the Realpolitik of taking advantage of useful idiots wherever thay can be found.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5125826 - 12/31/05 01:55 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

I love how George Bush is just *barely* by the skin of his teeth able to occupy a country like Iraq which was already falling apart because of sanctions and where the people had absolutely no desire to fight for the country.

And now, while he's STILL there, with no end in sight, he's going to invade another country.

Someone should give him a map and show him Iran. Fighting a war in Iran is going to much more analagous to fighting in Afghanistan, only with a much stronger guerilla force. The terrain in Western Iran is extremely rough, and considering Bush is having problems finding the terrorists in Iraq, watching him attempt to subdue a larger country with a population that is very proud will be somewhat amusing.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #5125860 - 12/31/05 02:05 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

We destroyed the Iraqi armed forces in about a month (I seem to recall that they were the fourth largest standing army in the world before we made them sit down). Twice. Afghanistan, the graveyard of the Soviet Union, in about two weeks. We wouldn't have to occupy Iran, just blow up anything that even has a radiation aura. Piece of cake.


--------------------


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #5125898 - 12/31/05 02:19 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I love how George Bush is just *barely* by the skin of his teeth able to occupy a country like Iraq which was already falling apart because of sanctions and where the people had absolutely no desire to fight for the country.

And now, while he's STILL there, with no end in sight, he's going to invade another country.

Someone should give him a map and show him Iran. Fighting a war in Iran is going to much more analagous to fighting in Afghanistan, only with a much stronger guerilla force. The terrain in Western Iran is extremely rough, and considering Bush is having problems finding the terrorists in Iraq, watching him attempt to subdue a larger country with a population that is very proud will be somewhat amusing.




Rough terrain! Great insight General. What will we ever do?


I Have an idea!

Blow them the fuck up, and forget about making it into a democracy. We were nice in Iraq, and have shed blood for their security. No troops should patrol the streets Iran. Nopers. Just bring death. That will give a better idea of what we can do.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5128232 - 01/01/06 08:54 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

(I seem to recall that they were the fourth largest standing army in the world

But remember the Hare-krishna's are the fifth largest.

Afghanistan

Good work studs.

I'm afraid you arn't going down in the annals of history as a tough fighting force taking on countries like Iraq and Afghanistan. That's about as impressive as Italy taking on Ethiopia.

Afghanistan, the graveyard of the Soviet Union.

But remember that was because the US was arming and funding the islamic fundamentalists. And what a bright idea that was.

We wouldn't have to occupy Iran, just blow up anything that even has a radiation aura

You really do sound terribly camp. 

Piece of cake.

:werd:


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: looner2]
    #5128247 - 01/01/06 09:13 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Just bring death.

Loon, I think you need to quit playing Doom and listening to thrash metal and try taking a few walks in the countryside with a nice young lady.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: Alex213]
    #5128589 - 01/01/06 02:56 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Just bring death.

Loon, I think you need to quit playing Doom and listening to thrash metal and try taking a few walks in the countryside with a nice young lady.




What is the deal? Eurotrash and Canadians want to bash the effectiveness of our military like you people understand a single concept related to war. Do you recognize that we are an occupying force that are bound to protecting civilians while trying to slay an insurgency that at times can't even be distinquished from the civilian population? Please, no moral slamming of our military here Alex, we know the problems associated with your ability to understand the point in context, I am speaking STRATEGICALLY. Do you recognize the confines our military is asked to operate in?

We are being overly nice to Iraq, no matter how much the world screams "NAZI'S". That is a defacto consequence of being the worlds sole superpower. We scare the world and they want a means of checking our power. You have no method of matching us militarily, so what is your strategy against us? You paint us as an evil, corrupt, and morally heinous society that is hell bent on world destruction. That is FINE! We roll our eyes, but you'll keep it up until a real evil superpower comes along and you need us once again.

This does, however, do a good thing for the U.S. It lets as act as we should. World opinion will hate us no matter what we do. We now have the burden lifted from our shoulders that before kept us doing the "right" thing. Now we should do, "our" thing.

That thing will include destroying our enemies, with no promise of rebuilding. It means acting as we see fit, without regard to world opinion or our traditional "western" allies have already gone to the extreme in their threats and psychotic rants. They are a laughing stock now.

Hopefully the world will see once again what our military can do. That is what you want to see, isn't it?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: looner2]
    #5130215 - 01/02/06 03:45 AM (16 years, 24 days ago)

You have no method of matching us militarily

Come again? A few iraqi's without a pot to piss in have got you on the run in Iraq.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: Alex213]
    #5130535 - 01/02/06 08:28 AM (16 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
You have no method of matching us militarily

Come again? A few iraqi's without a pot to piss in have got you on the run in Iraq.




Didn't read the post did you?

Do you recognize that we are an occupying force that are bound to protecting civilians while trying to slay an insurgency that at times can't even be distinquished from the civilian population? Please, no moral slamming of our military here Alex, we know the problems associated with your ability to understand the point in context, I am speaking STRATEGICALLY. Do you recognize the confines our military is asked to operate in?

2nd times a charm.

Plus, what you quoted is absolutely true, double that for Europe. You cannot match anything close to the American military. You can't deploy an army outside your own city parks, let alone your own continent. You embaressed yourself in Bosnia where you couldn't even stop genocide on your own continent as shown by your inadequate and shameful military response. U.S once again had to bail out Eurotrash from killing themselves once again.


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Edited by looner2 (01/02/06 08:34 AM)


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: Alex213]
    #5130581 - 01/02/06 09:58 AM (16 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
You have no method of matching us militarily

Come again? A few iraqi's without a pot to piss in have got you on the run in Iraq.




The insurgents don't have the U.S. military on the run at all.  They have the U.S. public on the run.

In guerrilla wars like this, the powerful occupying military force usually wins every engagement, kills way more of the guerilla force, and can never be defeated militarily.  The "losing" in situations like this comes when the powerful occupying military force leaves the field of battle (usually because of political pressure at home).  When this happens the guerilla force can claim victory; not because they won but because their opponent left.

For example, the U.S. won pretty much every engagement in Vietnam.  We lost 50,000 soldiers but killed much higher numbers of Vietcong and North Vietnamese.  We could never have been defeated there because we had too many men and too many resources.  But, we left so the communists won.  :shrug:


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5130722 - 01/02/06 11:49 AM (16 years, 24 days ago)

In guerrilla wars like this, the powerful occupying military force usually wins every engagement, kills way more of the guerilla force, and can never be defeated militarily

I can think of only one case of a powerful military defeating a homegrown insurgency in the last 50 years.

When this happens the guerilla force can claim victory; not because they won but because their opponent left.


It's chicken and the egg isn't it. People at home get upset when the news from the military is bad. If the Vietnam war had been going well no-one would have complained.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: looner2]
    #5130735 - 01/02/06 11:56 AM (16 years, 24 days ago)

Do you recognize the confines our military is asked to operate in?


What confines? The "confine" of only slaughtering 30-100,000 civilians (so far..)? If you havn't got the cojones to win a war without killing innocent women and kids then you want to pack up and go home now.

You cannot match anything close to the American military.

When you can lick an untrained bunch of Iraqis with a few explosives strapped to their backs then get back to us. Until then your military is impressing nobody.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: Alex213]
    #5130768 - 01/02/06 12:09 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
What confines? The "confine" of only slaughtering 30-100,000 civilians (so far..)? If you havn't got the cojones to win a war without killing innocent women and kids then you want to pack up and go home now.




What are you talking about? Did you really not understand what I said about "confines"? Did you just wait to use the word incorrectly and absurdly to make some out-of-left field rant about civilians?

How utterly depressing it is if this is your method of argument. I will give you one more shot at actually having a discussion here, and I'm not going to change the way I say it, I just hope this time you actually respond with an actual answer.

Do you understand the confines our military is operating in?

Quote:

Alex213 said:
When you can lick an untrained bunch of Iraqis with a few explosives strapped to their backs then get back to us. Until then your military is impressing nobody.




Are you on planet earth Alex? No flame, but seriously. Do you have any desire to debate facts, understand arguments or do you truly believe you are making a point?

What would the mightly European military do in the current situation that America is unable to do, oh wise General.


--------------------
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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: Alex213]
    #5130779 - 01/02/06 12:13 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
I can think of only one case of a powerful military defeating a homegrown insurgency in the last 50 years.




I know. And the reason that the powerful military always lost is not because they were defeated, it's because they left.

Here's an analogy: If I step into the ring with a 250 pound heavyweight championship boxer there is no way in hell that I'm going to be able to knock him down. I might be able to whack at his ribs a little. I might cause some slight bruising on him. But will I knock him down or knock him out? Of course not. It would not be possible for me to defeat him. However, if I stay on my feet and refuse to go down he eventually will get sick of expending the effort and he will leave.

Quote:

Alex213 said:
People at home get upset when the news from the military is bad. If the Vietnam war had been going well no-one would have complained.




The Tet Offensive was when the North Vietnamese and the Vietcong launched a massive attack on South Vietnam and American troops. Militarily, it was a resounding failure. Tons of communist fighters were killed. Any ground they gained was quickly taken back by the Americans. However, it made American civilians queazy because they saw all of this violence and it reinforced the idea that the war was not over. When the American public got queazy and mad, American troops were withdrawn.

As far as Iraq goes, I would not consider several troops dying here and there or an occasional tank or vehicle being blown up to be "defeat" or "being on the run". These attacks are just minor pinpricks on a force that has over 100,000 people in the theater. But, these attacks make the American public scared and leery. The insurgents realize there is no chance in hell of defeating a military force with tanks, helicopters, planes, sophisticated technology, and well armed troops. The only way they can win against America is if we withdraw our troops. The only way that will happen is if political pressure at home occurs. The only way that will happen is if American citizens resoundingly stop supporting the war. The insurgents realize all of this and they are succeeding in this arena.


Edited by RandalFlagg (01/02/06 12:17 PM)


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: Alex213]
    #5130787 - 01/02/06 12:20 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
When you can lick an untrained bunch of Iraqis with a few explosives strapped to their backs then get back to us. Until then your military is impressing nobody.




Imagine attacking a mosquitoe with a sledge-hammer.  The sledge-hammer exerts great force and can cause great damage.  A man wielding this tool is infinitely stronger and more powerful than the mosqitoe. 

But, it is hard to hit a mosqitoe with a sledge hammer.  :shrug:


Edited by RandalFlagg (01/02/06 12:21 PM)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5131016 - 01/02/06 02:22 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

My opinion is that we need a huge overhaul of our armed forces. Gone are the days of conventional battlefield warfare. We need to change our military to keep up with how wars are being fought. I would propose a smaller, more highly trained military coupled with the new technology of laser-guided explosive weapons. Not only would this reduce casualties, but I think it would be more effective in dealing with wars like Iraq and Vietnam.

My plan would be: Bring in conventional troops to take our the opposing force's mass of troops and heavy weaponry, and then once thing are coming to a simmer, let most of those troops leave and bring in the Rangers/Seals/Delat Force to deal with the remaining insurgency.

Just a thought. :shrug:


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5131274 - 01/02/06 03:44 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

If I step into the ring with a 250 pound heavyweight championship boxer

Isn't the whole idea of guerilla warfare that you don't confront the occupation force head on tho? You don't get into the ring with the 250lb guy, you wait outside his house with a balaclava on and hit him over the head with a baseball bat.

However, it made American civilians queazy because they saw all of this violence and it reinforced the idea that the war was not over. When the American public got queazy and mad, American troops were withdrawn.


Agreed - public opinion is always going to have an effect.

Just curious, do you know if there there people in the military who thought the Vietnam war was going well?

The insurgents realize there is no chance in hell of defeating a military force with tanks, helicopters, planes, sophisticated technology, and well armed troops.

But are they interested in defeating the american military? Or just creating a situation that makes it untenable for them to stay in Iraq? Just staying in Iraq is costing America billions and the security situation appears to be getting worse.

The insurgents realize all of this and they are succeeding in this arena

This isn't anything surprising tho is it? Occupying a country generally results in a resistance. Did Bush think he'd be welcomed with open arms?


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: Alex213]
    #5131410 - 01/02/06 04:16 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Randalflagg said:
If I step into the ring with a 250 pound heavyweight championship boxer

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Isn't the whole idea of guerilla warfare that you don't confront the occupation force head on tho?







I was using an analogy. You know what I was trying to say with that example. The weaker opponent doesn't defeat the stronger opponent in guerilla warfare situations. The weaker opponent just pesters the stronger opponent until the stronger opponent gets sick of it and leaves.

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Just curious, do you know if there there people in the military who thought the Vietnam war was going well?




The Vietnam War was a strange situation. The American military in Vietnam was completely hamstrung and micro-managed by the Johnson administration. When the military would identify valuable targets to bomb, they would have to get permission from the administration (and oftentimes the administration said "No"). So, the full might of U.S. military power (especially U.S. air power) was not unleashed.

From what I have read and seen, I say the following things with absolute confidence:

1. The U.S. could never have been defeated by the Vietcong or the North Vietnamese.

2. If political meddling had been non-existent and the generals could have run the war, the U.S. would have done much better. North Vietnam would have been completely defeated and the Vietcong would have been contained.

3. Any Vietcong insurgency that existed in Vietnam probably would have never gone away (because the Vietnamese were proud people who were sick of foreigners being in their lands), but it would have been manageable.

I have a relative who was a pilot in Vietnam and he said that exact same things.

Quote:

Randalflagg said:
The insurgents realize there is no chance in hell of defeating a military force with tanks, helicopters, planes, sophisticated technology, and well armed troops.

Quote:

Alex213 said:
But are they interested in defeating the american military?








Of course not. That's exactly what I am trying to say. They know they can't defeat the U.S. so all they can do is get the U.S. to leave.

Quote:

Randalflagg said:
The insurgents realize all of this and they are succeeding in this arena

Quote:

Alex213 said:
This isn't anything surprising tho is it? Occupying a country generally results in a resistance. Did Bush think he'd be welcomed with open arms?







I'm not surprised with how things in Iraq have unraveled and how the insurgency has acted. Everything they have done is "Guerilla Warfare 101".


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: Redstorm]
    #5131467 - 01/02/06 04:33 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
My opinion is that we need a huge overhaul of our armed forces. Gone are the days of conventional battlefield warfare. We need to change our military to keep up with how wars are being fought.




I agree with your assertion that warfare has changed. There can be little doubt about this. Long gone are the days of troops standing up in lines and shooting at each other. Long gone are the days of battleships lining up in a row and shooting at each other.

But, I disagree with you when you say that we should reorder our military significantly. I think we should have a healthy balance of both conventional and special forces. Special forces can accomplish a lot of things but they are no substitute for the sheer numbers and power that vast conventional forces bring to the table.

The way I see it, there are three possible enemies that the U.S. faces today and in the future:

1. People using guerilla tactics against us.

2. Weak nations that have weak military forces.

3. Strong nations that have strong military forces.

For example, Iraq War II was a #2 at first and now it is solely a #1.

In each one of these scenarios, both conventional and special forces can serve valuable purposes.


Edited by RandalFlagg (01/02/06 04:34 PM)


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: German media: U.S. preparing Iran strike [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5131766 - 01/02/06 05:55 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

Warfare has changed into a situation where its now Open Source Insurgencies who wage a war of infrastructure degradement. The Insurgents either keep constant fear, attack on infrastructure such as water or electricity,refinement, markets, government figures. Their position is to keep the government in constant failure. Not complete failure but a situation where larger and more conventional miltaries involve themselves in a expensive war of attrition.

Wars in Chechnya,Bosnia,Balkans,Vietnam has showed modern guerrillas to basically bleed more conventional forces by keeping the government in a constant failure so as their will be bailouts by the occupying force.Degrading governmental security breeds a situation where criminals and gangs, tribal leaders can now exert their influence in traffiking drugs across the border and financing more insurgencies.

Vietnam was Lost because we did not win the hearts and minds of the vietnamese not only that but the government we set up was in a situation of constant degradement. Corruption and government waste pissed off the vietnamese people and shrinked the ARVN's strength. When we pulled out of vietnam they were promptly overrun.


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