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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: dr0mni]
    #5113268 - 12/27/05 11:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

But of course I'm just deluding myself because of not fully undertanding the psychology of mind (pattern recognition; ad hoc reasoning) or the nature of probability.

True.

How many children have fear dreams of loved ones dying? (Hint: almost all.)

How many of these dreams coincide directly with reality? (Hint: almost none, but SOME do!)

How many people repeat these same dreams from children and assign special meaning to them when they are not predictive? (Hint: almost none.)

If you understood how mind games are played, you might view things differently.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: dr0mni]
    #5114288 - 12/28/05 06:52 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I've run in enough circles with Dip I'm dizzy and on the verge of vomiting.
Hehe, me too, but I think we come closer to some 'ground' of 'rules' for debate...

BTW: (warining, old maybe :wink:)
What if:
You are riding along some curve with constand speed in a car. Left of you is some abys, in front of you is an elephant, to your right is a fire engin and behind you is a helicopter, flying closely above ground. All are the same speed with you.
How do you safely get away ?
















Next time do half the dose and get off that fucking childs carousel !

(sorry, couldn't resist)


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinedr0mni
My Own Messiah
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Swami]
    #5117142 - 12/29/05 12:15 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
But of course I'm just deluding myself because of not fully undertanding the psychology of mind (pattern recognition; ad hoc reasoning) or the nature of probability.

True.

How many children have fear dreams of loved ones dying? (Hint: almost all.)

How many of these dreams coincide directly with reality? (Hint: almost none, but SOME do!)

How many people repeat these same dreams from children and assign special meaning to them when they are not predictive? (Hint: almost none.)

If you understood how mind games are played, you might view things differently.





Sounds like a bunch of unsubstantiated assumptions to me... just rationalizations. I used to make up all these theories about peoples behavior and though processes, but then I realized that to do so is only speculation.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: dr0mni]
    #5117767 - 12/29/05 04:44 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Have you ever heard a failed prediction?

How many stories do you post here about failed predictions?

How many stories do you frequently tell friends and relatives about failed predictions?

Be truthful when answering then point out the assumption.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5117858 - 12/29/05 06:12 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

BTW:
Lancet Study on NDEs (Vol 358 ? December 15, 2001):
http://www.zarqon.co.uk/Lancet.pdf

and conclusions:
http://www.iands.org/dutch_study.html


:goodmorning:

edit:
and an interesting read:
Science and Spirituality: A Challenge for the 21st Century
The Bruce Greyson Lecture from the International Association for Near-Death Studies 2004 Annual Conference
Peter Fenwick, M.D., F.R.C.Psych.
Institute of Psychiatry, Kings College, London, U.K. Mental Health Group, University of Southampton
http://www.iands.org/research/fenwick4.php


Edited by BlueCoyote (12/29/05 06:24 AM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5117871 - 12/29/05 06:34 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

That's an interesting study, but if you read it carefully, all it shows is that some fraction of people resuscitated from a clinically dead state report NDE/OOBE.

The study was based on after-the-fact interviews, so while it shows that some people experience these things (something that is not in dispute) it says nothing about whether these experiences were real or imagined (the core of the dispute).

In other words, there was no confirmatory mechanism in the study to determine if what the patient reported seeing was actually in the vicinity. No giant plastic spider on the roof, or shoe on a ledge, for example.

How could a clear consciousness outside one's body be experienced at the moment that the brain no longer functions during a period of clinical death with flat EEG?

This is a misleading statement by Dr. van Lommel because he presumes that the experience occurred during EEG flatline when it could have occurred during the anoxic period before flatline, or even after resuscitation. He cannot know when the experience was imprinted into the patient's long term memory.

Nice try, and interesting find, but you've only shown that some people report NDE/OOBE that could be completely real... or entirely imagined.

And we're back where we started.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5117912 - 12/29/05 07:22 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
"How could a clear consciousness outside one's body be experienced at the moment that the brain no longer functions during a period of clinical death with flat EEG?"

This is a misleading statement by Dr. van Lommel because he presumes that the experience occurred during EEG flatline when it could have occurred during the anoxic period before flatline, or even after resuscitation. He cannot know when the experience was imprinted into the patient's long term memory.



so then..read on:

Quote:

...How could a clear consciousness outside one's body be experienced at the moment that the brain no longer functions during a period of clinical death with flat EEG? . . . Furthermore, blind people have described veridical perception during out-of-body experiences at the time of this experience. NDE pushes at the limits of medical ideas about the range of human consciousness and the mind-brain relation. There is a theory that consciousness can be experienced independently from the normal body-linked waking consciousness. The current concept in medical science, however, states that consciousness is the product of the brain. Could the brain be a kind of receiver for consciousness and memories, functioning like a TV, radio or a mobile telephone? What you receive is not generated by the receiver, but rather electromagnetic informational waves (photons) that are always around you and are made visible or audible to you by the brain and your sense organs. In our prospective study of patients that were clinically dead (flat EEG, showing no electrical activity in the cortex, and loss of brain stem function evidenced by fixed dilated pupils and absence of the gag reflex), the patients report a clear consciousness, in which cognitive functioning, emotion, sense of identity, or memory from early childhood occurred, as well as perceptions from a position out and above their >>"dead"<< body.

To answer these fundamental questions, research should be focused on specific elements of the NDE, such as out-of-body experiences and other verifiable aspects. Finally, the theory and background of transcendence should be included as a part of an explanatory framework for these experiences.




further:
Quote:

Such emphasis on transcendent experience is not welcomed by all medical professionals. The Lancet editors included a "Commentary" on Dr. van Lommel's article, which argued that even when patients accurately report events that occur while their brain and heart are not functioning, the cause might not be a true separation of their consciousness from their bodies but rather "prior knowledge, fantasy or dreams, lucky guesses, ...details learned between the NDE and giving an account of it, and...false memories" the mind trying to retrospectively "fill in the gap" after a period of cortical inactivity. 1

The Commentary's author, British psychology professor Christopher French, explained further why he finds it hard to believe these patients' reports of their NDEs. He pointed to the fact that two persons who'd originally told van Lommel's team of no memory that would be categorized as an NDE, later told them in the two-year follow-up interview of experiences in the hospital that the researchers would categorize as core NDEs. Professor French's conclusion was that, "It seems likely that at least some patients, on hearing about other survivors' NDEs, would start to imagine what it would have been like if they had had the same experience.... Recent psychological studies have shown conclusively that simply imagining that one has had experiences that had in fact never been encountered will lead to the development of false memories for those experiences. 1

But psychiatrist Dr. Bruce Greyson, a member of The Lancet's peer review team and a long-time NDE researcher, offered Vital Signs a different explanation. "In my own research with patients hospitalized for attempted suicide, ...there were a few ...who, on follow-up visits, later described NDEs in the course of their initial suicide attempt. They all told me that they simply hadn't trusted me sufficiently in our initial interview to share the NDE. This should not be surprising, because many of them were concerned about being regarded as crazy... There is quite a lot of evidence that NDErs often are unwilling to share their accounts with researchers until they have earned their trust. Unless we have some reason to suspect that NDErs are highly suggestible and have some strong motivation to imagine having had their NDEs, it seems irrational to assume that all NDEs are 'false memories'."




--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5117987 - 12/29/05 08:00 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You've provided evidence that people experience these things (and I agree that they do), but no evidence that they are anything but anoxia-induced imaginings.

Present unambiguous, double-blind, controlled studies published in a peer-reviewed journal that show the subject really did leave their body (not just that they remember having done so) and I'll sit up and listen. Until then, I'm done with this thread.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5118025 - 12/29/05 08:22 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Bah,

BTW, this is taken from the lancet article:
(hint: It was sadly only a side effect, as these factors were not controlled in the pilot-phase, but at least it appears in that article)

"During the pilot phase in one of the hospitals, a
coronary-care-unit nurse reported a veridical out-ofbody
experience of a resuscitated patient:
?During a night shift an ambulance brings in a 44-
year-old cyanotic, comatose man into the coronary care
unit. He had been found about an hour before in a
meadow by passers-by. After admission, he receives
artificial respiration without intubation, while heart
massage and defibrillation are also applied. When we
want to intubate the patient, he turns out to have
dentures in his mouth. I remove these upper dentures
and put them onto the ?crash car?. Meanwhile, we
continue extensive CPR. After about an hour and a half
the patient has sufficient heart rhythm and blood
pressure, but he is still ventilated and intubated, and he
is still comatose. He is transferred to the intensive care
unit to continue the necessary artificial respiration. Only
after more than a week do I meet again with the patient,
who is by now back on the cardiac ward. I distribute his
medication. The moment he sees me he says: ?Oh, that
nurse knows where my dentures are?. I am very
surprised. Then he elucidates: ?Yes, you were there
when I was brought into hospital and you took my
dentures out of my mouth and put them onto that car, it
had all these bottles on it and there was this sliding
drawer underneath and there you put my teeth.? I was
especially amazed because I remembered this happening
while the man was in deep coma and in the process of
CPR. When I asked further, it appeared the man had
seen himself lying in bed, that he had perceived from
above how nurses and doctors had been busy with CPR.
He was also able to describe correctly and in detail the
small room in which he had been resuscitated as well as
the appearance of those present like myself. At the time
that he observed the situation he had been very much
afraid that we would stop CPR and that he would die.
And it is true that we had been very negative about the
patient?s prognosis due to his very poor medical
condition when admitted. The patient tells me that he
desperately and unsuccessfully tried to make it clear to
us that he was still alive and that we should continue
CPR. He is deeply impressed by his experience and says
he is no longer afraid of death. 4 weeks later he left
hospital as a healthy man.?"


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5118055 - 12/29/05 08:38 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
You've provided evidence that people experience these things (and I agree that they do), but no evidence that they are anything but anoxia-induced imaginings.

Present unambiguous, double-blind, controlled studies published in a peer-reviewed journal that show the subject really did leave their body (not just that they remember having done so) and I'll sit up and listen. Until then, I'm done with this thread.




How can you perform a logical scientific experiment to provide conclusive results of a phenomenon which is outside of the scope of material evidence? So far science has not been able to identify what consciousness is, or what the mind really is, let alone how it functions in relation to the physical body. So far scientists are working on the assumption that brain = mind, because they have found no conclusive evidence to the contrary using externally focused scientific methods. This is due to the limitations of that method when it comes to probing the nature of human experience beyond the material level. When you rest on scientific method, you rest upon the limitations of the material.


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (12/29/05 12:52 PM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5118056 - 12/29/05 08:39 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

...and, also from the lancer-article:
"Several theories have been proposed to explain NDE.
We did not show that psychological, neurophysiological,
or physiological factors caused these experiences after
cardiac arrest. Sabom22 mentions a young American
woman who had complications during brain surgery for
a cerebral aneurysm. The EEG of her cortex and
brainstem had become totally flat. After the operation,
which was eventually successful, this patient proved to
have had a very deep NDE, including an out-of-body
experience, with subsequently verified observations
during the period of the flat EEG."


:goodmorning:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinedr0mni
My Own Messiah
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Sinbad]
    #5118412 - 12/29/05 12:14 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
When you rest on scientific method, you rest upon the limitations of the material.




:thumbup:


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Offlinedr0mni
My Own Messiah
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5118418 - 12/29/05 12:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
...that show the subject really did leave their body...




But we can't even proove that "we" are INSIDE of our bodies....we can only varify the sensation.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: dr0mni]
    #5119360 - 12/29/05 05:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I've never seen so many arguements from ignorance....


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5121186 - 12/30/05 03:49 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
matter is a manifestation of mind

Dip thinks up a grilled cheese sandwich and hits the bong again.




i just wanted to address the fact that your inability to think up a grilled cheese sandwhich in no way disproves non materialistc paradigms. in my dream a few nights ago i had to take a boat to get home. this doesn't mean the objects in my dream have a seperate physical existence that cannot be influenced by my mind.


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