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OfflineTyrone_C
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My slowly forming theory on God and perfection
    #5099544 - 12/23/05 11:10 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Well first off, this isn't really my oppinion set in stone or anything, it's just a random theory I was thinking about last night.

But like my entire life, I've invisioned God in a certain way. Like I'm not talking about look, but I mean as in like personality.

But then I got to thinking, well what is God? God is the all knowing being right? So doesn't this mean God is "perfection". Well it seems to make sense to me, to have all the knowledge that exists is simply perfection.

But that got me thinking of the quote "nothing is perfect", which I beleive to be true. Nothing in this universe, no physical form or partical, or concious mind, can possibly be perfect. I think it would disrupt the whole balance that the universe has, either nothing can be perfect, or everything has to be perfect...because perfection can't exist in a world with imperfections.

So this got me thinking about alternate realities/dementions/universes, etc. What if there is infact another reality where absolutely everything is perfect? I can't comprehend this perfection, just in the same way someone who's never tripped can't really imagine what tripping is like. But that doesn't mean that it cannot exist.

But this lead me into further thought...so if God is in another reality, which consists purely if it(God), then would it even be possible for these two realities to interact? If they could, wouldn't that throw off the balance of inperfection we have in this reality? So if this is the case, then does this reality of perfection even exists? What would be it's purpose? If there is an all knowing being out there...so what??

Even as I'm writing this my beleifs are shifting. So lets say God does exists, so what? Even if one does have all the knowledge that could possibly exist...does that give them any power?

I don't think that question can really be answered, because...well...you'd need to know everything to determine if it's possible to obtain complete power once complete knowledge is obtained.

But thats beond the point...it's just that now that I really look at it, I don't see where God fits into the whole big picture. Like aren't things kind of set in stone already? Sure everyone makes thier own decisions every day...but what are those decisions based on? Well I guess many things...including the people that influence you, your mindset at the time, etc. But can't all that be predicted too?

Sure it seems complicated now, expecially with such a vast universe, but if you make enough calculations from the moment of the big bang, with and extreme knowledge of physics and psychology (much more knowledge than we could possible fathom), then wouldn't it be possible to detirmine everything that will ever happen from that point on?

If you know how different things will interact, then everything can be prededicted. With enough knowledge about the mind and setting, I think it's pretty safe to say one could know the decision a person is about to make before they make it. As I said before this knowledge is probably far too much for us to understand, but what I'm saying is it is possible to predict...

So yeah, I think my beleif in God is starting to slip, and my beleif in fate is beginning to increase. I just don't see the purpose for an all-knowing being...I just don't think the universe needs it.

Yet at the same time, how could all of this even be created. Like all this matter, everything that exists today and has existed for who knows how long. It can't just pop out of nowhere can it? Well maybe with ultamite intelligence comes the knowledge of creating matter from "nothing".

So if this is the case, then I guess space started with this "all knowing being", and that was it. Of coarse this being can't have a physical form can it? It doesn't seem realistic to me that something with no physical form could interact with the universe as it is now...it just seems to me that all interactions are simply physical. But if there was no physical matter in space to begin with, then who's to say something without a physical form cannot create physical things from scratch.

Sure "matter cannot be created nor destroyed"...but what about in a time when there was no matter at all? Simply a being, formed on pure knowledge. It doesn't make sense to me, but after experiencing things that I once would have never imagined, let alone thought possible, I have a bit more of an imagination I guess.

Either way, with infinate knowledge, this being could create a large object of matter, constructed in perfect detail down to each and every particle, would be able to create the universe and everything in it. So this way, everything that has happened to date, and everything that will happen in the future, was already determined by how that first ball of mass was put together.

So yeah, if this is the case then I guess I was wrong about God not playing a role in our lives...because if he did create this mass, then it (God) knew how each and every one of our lives would play out. So hey, ya never know, if you think God has sent you a message or something, maybe that is truely the case, because God planned it that way from the beginning of time.

But if God did create all matter from scratch, something would still have to go into it. So maybe God sacrificed himself to make this mass which would become the universe, and all of God's knowledge somehow took physical form and created all the matter that now exists.

So...there's my whack theory, not that I really beleive it firmly or anything, because my beleifs change so much every day...but yeah, feel free to comment, you won't be insulting my religion or anything by saying stuff, because I'm really open (and at the same time very lost/confused) when it comes to my beleifs.

Sorry that it's all over the place...probably because I changed my mind multiple times while writing it...but oh well, thanks for reading.  :thumbup:


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OfflinejustAkid
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Re: My slowly forming theory on God and perfection [Re: Tyrone_C]
    #5099707 - 12/23/05 11:51 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Why does God have to be an all-knowing being, as you refer to him? You name this characteristic and only that he is powerful. But he is so much more than this.

This is the way I like to look at it.

The Universe is like a pyramid. For the Universe to exist the pyramid must have a base. The base is God and the matieral we see is merely an extension of God. However the base can still exist without it's body, but the body cannot exist without the base. God is unaffected by the body but if the base were to crumble so would the rest of the pyramid.

I like your idea of the perfect parallel Universe. I believe this perfect world you speak of exists in God's mind and it exists to motivate the material world toward it's perfection. So when when we see something we deem to be beautiful it is simply material form trying to replicate this world of perfection.

Also God exists even more in the world than this. He exists as loving-kindness in people. He exists as compassion in people. He exists as everything good in the world. He is you, your perfect Self. He is perfect Awareness.

As to question on mechanistic matieralism. We can assume that God is something that is unaffect by material yet is affecting material. God is the ultimate explanation upon which all explanations must rest, in order that anything be explained (St. Augistine's second proof for God). The Unmoved Mover. Now since God is a Consciousness unaffacted by matieral and we too are conscious why shouldn't we share some part of us with God that is not a part of matieral, that does not fall under a cause?


--------------------
Trust thyself.


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OfflineElectricJW
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Re: My slowly forming theory on God and perfection [Re: justAkid]
    #5099882 - 12/24/05 12:35 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

What if we are God, or God is in everything. Like we are all a "piece" of God. We experience everything there is to experience, so God knows whats his creation is like. We progress in spiritual form until we all reach the same level as 1 singularity, and God appears by itself. Then it repeats, God creates everything, then it all comes back together, infinitely.

This is just an Idea of mine, but I'm always open for improvements on my theory.


--------------------
"Visualize the action, then actualize the vision." - King of the Hill

“Long you live and high you'll fly and smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry and all you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be.”- Pink Floyd


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OfflineGomp
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Re: My slowly forming theory on God and perfection [Re: ElectricJW]
    #5099923 - 12/24/05 12:48 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

we was the one, we are the many...

being one, as many, and (more and more) being many, as the one...

:wink:


Edited by Gomp (12/24/05 12:48 AM)


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OfflineGulGen
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Re: My slowly forming theory on God and perfection [Re: ElectricJW]
    #5100797 - 12/24/05 06:49 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Any reason that there couldn't be more than one god? How about infinite?

And while we're at it, they can all live in a universe together, which itself was created by a greater god, which even the lower gods can not comprehend.

Lather, rinse, repeat endlessly. :grin:


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: My slowly forming theory on God and perfection [Re: GulGen]
    #5100811 - 12/24/05 06:57 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Buddhists tend to think all things are constructed via thought collaboration. I'd be inclined to agree.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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OfflineTyrone_C
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Re: My slowly forming theory on God and perfection [Re: GulGen]
    #5102216 - 12/24/05 04:46 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

GulGen said:
And while we're at it, they can all live in a universe together, which itself was created by a greater god, which even the lower gods can not comprehend.

Lather, rinse, repeat endlessly. :grin:




Wow thats freakin trippy. God damn life is confusing.


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OfflinejustAkid
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Re: My slowly forming theory on God and perfection [Re: GulGen]
    #5102687 - 12/24/05 07:35 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

And while we're at it, they can all live in a universe together, which itself was created by a greater god, which even the lower gods can not comprehend.

Lather, rinse, repeat endlessly.




I see you are trying to imply some kind of ad infinum argument against the existence of God, which is actually derived from a proof for God not against Him.

God is the self-causing explanation upon which all things in reality can be explained (St. Augistine's second proof). There is no God's God, because one of the characteristics of God is His self-causing nature. If someone refers to God they refer to the Being that is self-caused. So if you say "what is God's God" the subordinate God is not God at all and should not be referred to as God because he does not connote God's self-causing nature.

Now what is your self-causing explanation of reality if it is not God?


--------------------
Trust thyself.


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OfflinejustAkid
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Re: My slowly forming theory on God and perfection [Re: ElectricJW]
    #5102745 - 12/24/05 08:05 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

What if we are God, or God is in everything. Like we are all a "piece" of God. We experience everything there is to experience, so God knows whats his creation is like.




Exactly

Quote:

We progress in spiritual form until we all reach the same level as 1 singularity, and God appears by itself. Then it repeats, God creates everything, then it all comes back together, infinitely.





I can't put enough faith in the human race to see it's perfection. However, I do believe that humans can be God or the "peice" of Him you described, but I don't believe all of reality can match up to this perfection.


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Trust thyself.


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OfflineGulGen
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Re: My slowly forming theory on God and perfection [Re: justAkid]
    #5102874 - 12/24/05 08:52 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Actually I wasn't trying to argue against God in that particular post, but I see your point.

I think it might be fair to say that there was only one true "first cause". At the same time, I see no reason why that cause / God must necessarily have created us / our known universe directly. The thing that created that which we know as all of existence might in fact have been created long ago by some greater power, etc. There's no feasible way to prove such an idea as true or false, but I find it interesting to think about. Calling such subordinate causes "gods" or not is really just a matter of semantics, but I do mentally differentiate the "highest" god as being relatively unique as a first cause, which of course none of its creations can claim.

I have no reason, however, to imagine that there'd be only one "highest" god. If such a being exists, I cannot fathom that more (infinite? Why not!) such beings could not also exist, each having created their own reality entirely separate from the others'. Or maybe not entirely separate - just because they started out that way doesn't mean that they couldn't have merged after the fact.

Oh, and just because a being believes itself to be a creator doesn't necessarily mean that it is. If some demi-god (for lack of a better term) believes itself to be the ultimate creator and forms a race to worship it as such, who but a higher god could ever know the difference?

This is all entirely unprovable, and probably not of any practical value anyway, but I do find it a fun mental exercise. Being able to mentally twist the fabric of the omniverse into different forms keeps me from being terribly dogmatic to any single viewpoint. :stoned:


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OfflinejustAkid
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Re: My slowly forming theory on God and perfection [Re: GulGen]
    #5103166 - 12/24/05 11:10 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

think it might be fair to say that there was only one true "first cause". At the same time, I see no reason why that cause / God must necessarily have created us / our known universe directly





Good point and by my argument I am not saying that He is. The argument for God( of St. Thomas Aquinas' second proof) has been sort of meshed with his argument by motion and thus creating a warped argument containing "infinite regress" and matieral reality. The argument from "infinite regress" ( the second proof) shows that everything that exists can be explained through it's cause(cause meaning not what caused it's movement, but cause meaning the princples behind it). For example the human body can be explained through it's organs and organs through biology, and biology through microbology, and microbiology through physics and quantum mechanics. Now in order for anything to be explained it must go through this explanation process. However if there is no Ultimate explanation or Ultimate Cause nothing could ever be explained because the would be an infinite regress of explanations. So there must be one self-causing cause so that everything may be explained.

Quote:

Oh, and just because a being believes itself to be a creator doesn't necessarily mean that it is. If some demi-god (for lack of a better term) believes itself to be the ultimate creator and forms a race to worship it as such, who but a higher god could ever know the difference?





Entirely plausible.

Could we be these demi-gods?

We do create our own reality.


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Trust thyself.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: My slowly forming theory on God and perfection [Re: Tyrone_C]
    #5104179 - 12/25/05 07:05 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Very interestin read, guys - I don't know where to get in :wink:

If first cause, last cause, big cause, small cause, ancient cause, future cause, every percieved real existence seems to have causes, but the last cause to must not be the first, so to say.
The causes are interwoven, spinned, mixed, twisted and tangled.
Even our 'free will' may be some original cause, strongly connected with the plain 'first cause' at all.

Even the transcendental realms keep many 'causes' for us at hand which make a reflection about reality nescessary for us.
Their interconnections with the physical plains are not proven well until now.
There is more importance, then some may imagine, until their imagination is not needed anymore because it is proven.

Sorry for rumbling :heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: My slowly forming theory on God and perfection [Re: Tyrone_C]
    #5109845 - 12/27/05 02:27 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Tyrone_C said:
But that got me thinking of the quote "nothing is perfect", which I beleive to be true. Nothing in this universe, no physical form or partical, or concious mind, can possibly be perfect. I think it would disrupt the whole balance that the universe has, either nothing can be perfect, or everything has to be perfect...because perfection can't exist in a world with imperfections.



Perfection is self contained, therefore it can exist in a world of imperfection. If it could not, that would be the indication of imperfectness.


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