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Offlinesamueljackson
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5105389 - 12/25/05 06:27 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

to reach technologic singularity of course :laugh:


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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5106657 - 12/26/05 05:53 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

download Linux, it is capable of not crashing or being rebooted for months, at a time
Linux is a program of a few thousand lines of code and still crashes, do you understand how many lines of code an artificial brain would need?

It is vain, to say the least, to pursue such an aim with current technology. It is absurd.

Five decades of AI and what have we seen till now? Not much.

It was during the sixties I think when Marvin Minsky claimed that he would solve the problem of robot vision (within one summer!). The problem is still here.

For decades they try to build robots which create a model of the environment in order to find their way out of the living-room and it's a failure. Research is going back to primitive reflexes, without any sort of 'mind' behind.

Rule-based systems have changed a couple of names??knowledge based?, ?expert systems?... sure, changing names is quite a progress. The human mind being a set of rules?who came up with this idea anyway?

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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5106663 - 12/26/05 05:58 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

What is the main application of AI being sponsored for the near future?

Agents pretending to be intelligent that learn your tastes and shop for you on the net, saving you the trouble (laziness again). In essence, we are talking about a whole new era of marketing fraud. It is plain too easy for programmers to figure out their basic rules of function and make them buy junk for gold.

I have a few good words for neural networks and genetic algorithms but that is only for applications relevant to art and education.

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Invisibleraytrace
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Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5106675 - 12/26/05 06:06 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

The human mind being a set of rules?who came up with this idea anyway?
I mean... it must have been a nerd...

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Invisiblepsyka
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Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5106700 - 12/26/05 06:24 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Do you think that humans are the only creatures in the world to possess intelligence?

How about bugs, animals, infants?

Your basing your arguments on your own conditioning. You are the way you are (unique) because of past events wired your brain to be what it is. You are your neurons firing, and your neurons operate in a predictable manner, SO, we can reasonably conclude the human mind is a large set of rules.

Neurology and artificial intelligence go hand-in-hand. Neurology is progressing extremely rapidly... almost at the pace of computer technology.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Registered: 05/07/04
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5106784 - 12/26/05 07:30 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

What is the main application of AI being sponsored for the near future?



War ?
(Look at the 'funny' robo-jeep-race, sponsored by U.S. army)


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5107909 - 12/26/05 03:42 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

There is never ever going to be a program that will be intelligent like man kind.

Just 20 years ago it was said that there will never be a machine that could beat the intuition of the best human chess players because the ethereal (read: mystical/magical) human intuition could see forward into a game in a way that brute force never could.

Today, the best computers can beat the best humans at chess. :shrug:

AI is an every day fact of life including in space exploration, in the data mining done by the department of defense looking for terrorists, and even in kids' PSP and XBOX games.

The interesting topic is what I call AS (Artificial Sentience). I conjecture that such a thing is not possible in a deterministic machine. In order for AS to exist, it must have access to a source of true random numbers, lots of them; something conventional computers do not have and which quantum computers do almost by definition.

There's a parallel in human brains where the interaction of neurons, fundamentally, are a function of protein folding mediated by Van Der Waals London forces at quantum mechanical scales. These proteins are like tiny sub-brains inside the whole. They influence neurons by vibrating and that vibration is influenced by quantum coherence in their region of the brain. This is evidenced by the way gas anesthetics like cyclopropane or nitrous oxide, which are metabolically inert, disrupt consciousness by forming new quantum interactions in protein pockets that interfere with the usual processes going on there. These are NOT chemical interactions, they are quantum mechanical interactions via Van Der Waals London forces.

I think Sentience is an emergent property of irreducible quantum effects and so if an AS is ever created, it will have to wait for practical Quantum Computation. This is pure conjecture at this point, but I've been almost obsessively studying the issue and writing AI programs for two decades, for whatever that's worth.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (12/26/05 11:39 PM)

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Invisibleraytrace
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Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5114263 - 12/28/05 04:23 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

War ?
this brings up another point. AI is a power oriented technology. The accumulation of power can only result in blowing up each other as the power will have to be eventually released.

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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Diploid]
    #5114273 - 12/28/05 04:34 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

1. Computers that excel in chess, should be called Kick Ass Mechanical Chess Players, not intelligent.

2. Please show me the connection between randomness and sentience

3. "I think Sentience is an emergent property of irreducible quantum effects and so if an AS is ever created, it will have to wait for practical Quantum Computation. This is pure conjecture at this point"
yes, that's it, pure conjecture

4. You keep talking about 'emergence'. I've asked this before in another thread and I got no answer. What is emergence?

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Invisibleraytrace
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Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5114290 - 12/28/05 04:59 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

You are your neurons firing, and your neurons operate in a predictable manner, SO, we can reasonably conclude the human mind is a large set of rules.

The connection between the neurons firing and the human mind is not a simple matter and I do not wish to touch it right now.

Most certainly though human intelligence cannot be reduced to predicate logic.

One of my objections is humour. In that recent thread "are we alone in the universe", Swam made that joke (run, it's the all seeing eye of Horus), that you apparently got. What sort of rule can a machine consult to reach: that=funny ?

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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5114305 - 12/28/05 05:10 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Do you think that humans are the only creatures in the world to possess intelligence?
no, but as far as I can see man-made artifacts do not possess it, and I have not seen any evidence that they will do sortly

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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5114399 - 12/28/05 06:34 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

raytrace, did you know that there are people with damaged parts of the brain unable to process humor but are able to process other forms of communication normally? Whats your explanation for that?

Just because it seems overwhelmingly complex, does not mean it is not a logical system.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: psyka]
    #5114534 - 12/28/05 08:44 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I?m by no means arguing that there is no correspondence between events in the brain and subjective experience, but that does not mean that whatever happens in the brain/mind can be accurately reflected in rules of propositional logic.

A machine blindly following rules of inference, can only infer a conclusion. But, laughter is spontaneous, nobody decides to laugh.

Laughter is totally irrational, please analyze carefully anything that makes you laugh and then tell me why the hell it is funny.

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5114541 - 12/28/05 08:50 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

> But, laughter is spontaneous, nobody decides to laugh.

My dog is pretty smart, but I have never seen her laugh... I guess she has no intelligence after all...


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Seuss]
    #5114689 - 12/28/05 09:55 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

The laughter argument applies to human intelligence and in regards to mapping the human mind with rules of inference.

How do you determine that your dog is intelligent?

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5114824 - 12/28/05 10:34 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

> How do you determine that your dog is intelligent?

Well, she doesn't try to walk through windows or bark at her reflection in the mirror like she did when she was a pup... pretty sure that is a sign of learning, which would imply intelligence...


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/18/00
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Loc: In the hen house
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5115025 - 12/28/05 11:42 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

1. Computers that excel in chess, should be called Kick Ass Mechanical Chess Players, not intelligent.

I have covered this in great detail many times. BEFORE this 'insurmountable' milestone was passed, chess was considered a game of high intelligence and impossible for a machine to conquer. AFTER it was passed, it is poo-pooed as mere 'brute force' mechanics.

This will be the same for every hurdle and the defintion of intelligence will keep changing to protect the collective ego of the human race.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Registered: 01/09/03
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Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: raytrace]
    #5115824 - 12/28/05 03:56 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

1. Computers that excel in chess, should be called Kick Ass Mechanical Chess Players, not intelligent.

One of the hallmarks of intelligence is the ability to learn then synthesize that learning. A machine that memorizes by rote may be debatably intelligent, but Deep Blue, the machine that beat Kasparov, the then-best human, not only learned by rote, it also synthesized the things it learned into NEW information that it had never been taught.

During the development of the software, the machine played countless games against itself. It didn't simply memorize those games in case they came up again in real play, it took the aggregate of that information and gleaned new, second-order knowledge not readily apparent from a simple list of games.

Deep Blue didn't just learn, it pondered its database and learned from what it had learned; it taught itself things its human designers never did. This is exactly what a human chess player does when he closes his eyes to review his prior games so as to strengthen his future games.

Paraphrasing Kasparov after the tournament: "Deep Blue sometimes exhibited a deep intelligence machines are not capable of."

He was so threatened and disturbed by this that he actually accused the IBM team of cheating by using a human player instead of the machine during the match.

yes, that's it, pure conjecture

Duh. Know anyone else talking about machine sentience in anything other than conjecture??

4. You keep talking about 'emergence'. I've asked this before in another thread and I got no answer. What is emergence?

Emergence, in a nutshell, is the unexpected rise of complex behavior from simple systems. It's when the complex behavior does not appear to be a capability of the simple form.

Examples include hurricanes from air molecules, complex giant ant colonies from ants, huge monolithic swarms of locusts from single insects, galaxies from disparate atoms.

I'll elaborate on one and you can use your imagination for the rest.

Take a locust (flying grasshopper). They rarely fly, bump into things and appear uncoordinated when they do, and are lethargic the rest of the time. Under certain conditions, giant masses of them take to the air and fly for miles. But instead of an uncoordinated scramble, the mass of flying locusts exhibits well coordinated flying, stays together in a giant blob, and they all land at the same time when they spot a field planted with food crops.

The well-coordinated swarming behavior is an emergent property of the locust because single locusts can't even fly straight.

It turns out that there are structures in the locust brain hard wired to follow-the-leader. These structures allow the emergent swarming behavior that is totally absent in a single locust. When a single locust flies, it is in a dizzy randomness that usually ends when it flies into a wall. Put millions of them together and a graceful, coordinated ballet in the air emerges from a swarm that could be a kilometer or more in diameter.

Consciousness is also an emergent property. It is not at all clear how a single neuron can give rise to consciousness, but a giant collection of them do; just like a locust swarm.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (12/28/05 06:47 PM)

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Registered: 06/13/04
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Diploid]
    #5115851 - 12/28/05 04:04 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

That is a very interesting explanation. I need to read up on this as it sounds like some cool mind-candy to consider.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: "Artificial Intelligence" [Re: Diploid]
    #5116362 - 12/28/05 06:30 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

The locust-explanation is not quite right exactly. The special behavior while they are locusts is not only because of 'group-dynamic'. They undergo a real metamorphosis while changing from grass-hopper to locusts. It starts through rubbing on their legs. That happens, if many grasshoppers are on one place. Something more, I don't remember exactly, maybe smell from the transformation, starts the chain reaction, or was it, that the locusts got more aggressive and active, so the rubbing of the legs increased for each other.
They 'mutate' from almost peaceful insects to little killer-monsters and eating-machines, I thnk to remember even physically.

Else, you are correct :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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