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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5110759 - 12/27/05 12:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Anecdotal stories do not satisfy the requirement for a demonstrable phenomenon.
...
Again, for all I know, the whole gang made the story up or maybe the shoe was hanging slightly off the ledge and the lady noticed it on the way in, or a million other explanations.

"...It remains an unanswered question as to how these isolated shoes arrived at their unlikely perches for later viewing by astonished NDErs and their baffled investigators."

edit: And for marcos case: Yes 130+180=310, but it makes me wonder more that in aeronautics, the opposite of 13 is 31... :smile: You know ? Double-syncronizity :grin:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (12/27/05 12:11 PM)


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5110826 - 12/27/05 12:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Tell me why the shared experience of trancendental reality during meditation does not quatlify as an observable phenomena

Because it cannot be observed outside the head of the person experiencing it. That renders it an anecdotal story at best.




I have never experienced anything outside of my own head...  Can you?

Quote:


And what what's this about 'shared experience'? Are you claiming that two people can simultaneously share an experience (telepathy)? If so, they should be able to independently describe it after the fact. This has never happened in controlled double-blind (read: you can't cheat or kid yourself) conditions and would be v-e-r-y impressive if it ever were demonstrated.




When I say shared experience I mean TWO PEOPLE EXPERIENCING CORRELATED PHENOMENA! As in, I've felt energy being concentrated in the middle of my forehead in the location referred to at the third eye or crown chakra. I'm not the only person who has felt this. Monks have actually mapped out trancendental territories, and this map was used by Dr. Strasseman to develope a questionaire meant to record subjective data during his DMT experiments. He found that it worked extremely well for the tests and this questionaire was used in other studies for psilocybin that were not performed by him.

Just as you stare at an object with a person and report correlated information about your experiences, so I have observed trancendence and have spoken to others about our correlated experiences.

Quote:


despite the facts that many many people have claimed to experienced it

Many people claim to experience the color red. Shared experiences say only that they share a brain topology.

And despite your attempt to gag me, truth can stand any scrutiny, so I'll ask you again. I know people who will tell you they've 'experienced' the Spaghetti Monsters. You have yet to provide me with a rationale for believing in [mystical phenomenon] while not believing in the Spaghetti Monsters even though both stand on exactly equal footing.




from wiki:
Flying Spaghetti Monsterism (FSM) is a satirical parody religion created in 2005 to protest the decision by the Kansas State Board of Education to require the teaching of intelligent design as an alternative to biological evolution.

I've told you that i refuse to play into your GSM crap. GSM was created for one purpose only and is only mentioned in ONE context. It is not a label for an experience it is a label for a cultural ideology. Expressing ones belief in the GSM is a debate tactic.

That is my experience of GSM and that is why I state my belief.
I've stated my experience and reasoning behind mysticism... my beliefs are also based on observation. Your argument is based on lame debate tactics

That's the last time I'm running that circle :crankey:




Quote:

there IS physical evidence (EEGs, brain scans, etc) showing a specific shift in brain functioning during these states

Specifically, what states and can you provide a source to double-blind (again read: you cannot cheat or kid yourself) studies?




Hmm... I was under the impression that EEGs have been used for decades to analyse states of consciousness during sleep and can indicate exactly when a dream starts or ends... I guess I assumed that this was common knowledge :shrug: Sorry, no sources there...

Quote:


In the end, you keep dancing around this one question but you refuse to step on it: Why don't any of these people go win the JREF Million Dollar Prize? Should be a snap if all you talk and talk and talk about is true.




Is there any response I could give that you won't brush off as a rationalization?

Honestly I have no idea. I've never even been to that site, but if I had to guess, I'd say that this dude isn't looking for a psychic. I would guess that someone who puts up that much money is using it as a way of saying "this is how sure I am that there are no such thing as psychics". And anyone who is that convicted will never be convinced otherwise. Just like you.

Hey, i've got a challenge... the first person to bring me a live Giant Squid will get a Brazilian dollars! I bet no one will win, because of course the Giant Squid of course is a mythical creature with very little evidence supporting it's existence...


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5110879 - 12/27/05 12:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Give ME a f**king break! Do not presume to tell me what I saw at that airport, and please don't tell me that you are a commercial jet pilot who routinely uses the Ft. Lauderdale tarmac. There WAS something amazing about the hordes of nightcrawlers, not so amazing the numbers, so get your memories straight. I will note the airport numbers in the future, in the event that I either misread, made a typo, or it is you who are mistaken. What you are attempting to string together are not related incidentally - the worm event and the flight event, so it may have been a combination of things related to friday the 13th.

Paranoid schizophrenia (as in the film 'A Beautiful Mind') is usually behind the creation of associations that have no basis, not synchronicities. That you are unable or unwilling to grok synchronicities as events or in principle is your own shortcoming. I do not suffer from schizophrenia, and whereas I am far more 'Intuitive' than 'Sensing' (which is why I would not take up piloting, even though offered to me), and like yourself, I do make mistakes, I am probably as astute an observer of inner events as you are an observer of outer events. I seem to know my shortcomings, how is it that you seem so blind to your own - your memories for example? I am not into deception of others, certainly not myself, so suggesting that 'possible' mistakes on my part indicates that I am not a phenomenologist is just you calling names. Please. Few individuals I encounter in life would suggest that I am not perceptive in my own element.

It is not really 'me' that you are contrary to, it is a whole mentality characterized by the Jungian school, and all of its adherents, as well as all of those historical precedents since time immemorial - those who might be more interested in the Platonic-mystical vector versus the Aristotelian-empiricle vector that you are averse to. Hey, read some Ken Wilber and see a great model-builder fit all of these perspectives into a coherent meta-model. Or not. Continue to imagine that you're correct and everyone else is not correct (minor errors notwithstanding).


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5110998 - 12/27/05 01:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

A fool who thinks himself wise is still a fool.

A fool who knows himself a fool still has wisdom.

And the wise that deny their own foolishness are fools of the highest order.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5111541 - 12/27/05 04:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

please don't tell me that you are a commercial jet pilot who routinely uses the Ft. Lauderdale tarmac

I've flown my airplane into that airport 100 times or more in the 20+ years I've been flying in south Florida. All of south Florida is my back yard.

That you are unable or unwilling to grok synchronicities as events or in principle is your own shortcoming.

That your imagination makes up facts to CAUSE synchronicites is telling.

And that when I show you one of these glaring made up facts, your belief system is so threatened that you fight me irrationally rather than honestly admit that your subconscious desire for synchronicity to be true caused you to transpose the numbers is more telling still.

Rigorously scientific-phenomenological minds embrace demonstrable truth even when, especially when, it shakes their world view. I'm willing to if it's ever shown me. Why aren't you?


FLL


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (12/27/05 04:24 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5111711 - 12/27/05 05:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

'Your head is not correct.' I have never made up facts - facts are facts and cannot be made up. Fabrications are fictions or lies.

What is this crap, "All of south Florida is my back yard?" That is just your own grandiosity talking (I won't even get started on the egos of men who become pilots), as is your attempt to speak to me about my subconscious processes which you are in no way capable of adequately addressing. You seem somewhat hostile in accusing me of fighting you "irrationally." 'Your head is not correct.' You are a hostile individual who could no more relinquish his materialistic world-view than the literal Fundamentalist can relinquish his/hers. BTW, non-rational is not equivalent to irrational, and "acausal" is not the same thing as non-causal. There are intuitive modes of operation in human beings.

Frankly, you do not know my world-view, because if you did you wouldn't attempt so puerile an attempt to make it look as though you were capable of threatening it. Empirical knowledge is not threatening to me or my metaphysics. I have always enjoyed science - even posted pics of my home lab as a child. Moreover, you would not keep returning to an insignificant coincidence that I named ages ago, pertaining to the number 13 except as a rather frenzied attempt to discredit my sensibilities. It was a passing observation, not a terse philosophical point. Choose your battles more selectively.

The subjective pole is one side of synchronicity as it is one side of every psychological event. Synchronicities are not 'made up facts' - as I said, that is ridiculous, facts by definition are factual. I cannot demonstrate a purely psychological reality as it occurs to awareness, so your persistant call for demonstrable truth (ad nauseum) is only a call for physical phenomena. Hey, I feel for you if you can't experience non-ordinary states. Really. But color-blind people do not deny the existence of the colors they can't see. Are you a Behaviorist? They claim that 'mind' does not exist. They are extremely mechanistic and materialistic with a distinct tendency to avoid any claims about paranormal events, thus the Jungian school is completely disavowed by them. I had to ask because, you know, 'if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...'


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5112581 - 12/27/05 09:14 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Your problem is that you mistakenly confuse psychic phenomena (the Psi functions: telepathy, precognition, clairvorance, etc.) with the word mystic.

Quote:

Diploid said:
Marcos,

I can only use the language available to us. According to Merriam-Webster Online:

mystic: d : having magical properties

All that you mention, telepathy, precog, psychics, clairvoyance, all that is magic so the word 'mystic' is appropriate. That it happens to overlap with 'religious' is an unfortunate result of English.

Don't shoot the messenger.





Mystics are people who claim to have undergone an inner transformation or had an inner experience that is spiritual in nature. I think the term is used a little more loosely in the other philosophy forum here. Still it would never occur to me to think a mystic was a magician.

How much of a statistical aberration would have to show up before someone would think someone is winning more than they should, more than 1%, more than .05%, what number would alert someone that something is wrong.
I do agree that psychics, if they are doing it for profit as gamblers could show up statistically.

When you use Randi as support for the nonexistance of psychics, it makes me cringe. Have you thought what these abilities would mean to someone? I am sure Randi's test would be demanding.  What he is good at is debunking charlatans.
I do not think he has any chance, if they exist:lol:, of attracting a psychic.

Have you thought about what you would you could offer a psychic to let you into his confidence? Do you think you could be privy to witness these talents if the psychic were not sure that you would tell no one? I don't think you or Randi could keep quiet about something like this.  I don't think I could.
Who could? Who would have as much to lose as the psychic?

I'd like someone to uncover a real psychic, someone, you, Randi, whoever. It would be cool. Using money as bait is silly.  What do you think you are trying to trap, some destitute bum with no means of survival. Man, you are talking about someone with extra senses or extra abilities. Get a little creative Diploid. It seems like you really would like to run into someone who is psychic, get some bait, build the trap.

Here's a thought, think like a psychic. What do they need. I'll tell you, they need a challenge. They need something that is going to be thrilling, exciting even. They do not need Randi's money.  I'm  serious, you seem motivated, do it, catch a psychic.


Edited by falcon (12/27/05 09:16 PM)


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: falcon]
    #5112657 - 12/27/05 09:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

yeah, I mean, the last time someone demonstrated supernatural abilities repeatedly in front of a crowd... well... you know...



I think i'd honestly be scared as fuck to demonstrate such powers in front of a crowd in light of history.


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: dr0mni]
    #5112700 - 12/27/05 09:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:smile: Tough crowd. I'd get stage fright and repeatedly raise and drop the elephant I was trying to levitate and bounce it across the stage in a psychic stuttering dribble.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: falcon]
    #5112702 - 12/27/05 09:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Have you thought about what you would you could offer a psychic to let you into his confidence?

Well, in New Orleans, it was about $20.

Come to think of it, those same New Orleans psychics who claimed the ability to predict my future somehow didn't see Katrina coming and died due to their imagined abilities not working.

I want a refund. :shrug:

They do not need Randi's money.

Yes, yes, we all know the noble psychic wants nothing to do with money, not even the ones who sell book, movie, and TV deals and set up telephone hotlines to the tune of millions.  :sad:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: dr0mni]
    #5112718 - 12/27/05 09:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, I mean, the last time someone demonstrated supernatural abilities repeatedly in front of a crowd... well... you know...

It was called socio-political unrest and had nothing to do with any alleged miracles. Same as with Gandhi and King. Please study your history.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: dr0mni]
    #5112724 - 12/27/05 09:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

*yawn*

How do we 'lure' great musicians and dancers and plumbers and architects and doctors and engineers and...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Swami]
    #5112735 - 12/27/05 09:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

you assume, like Randi, that all psychics are con artists or that they exploit their talent for money.


Edited by dr0mni (12/27/05 09:58 PM)


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: dr0mni]
    #5112741 - 12/27/05 09:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I thought jesus was crucified because the Jews are the spawn of Satan and the pawns of God...


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5112748 - 12/27/05 10:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

What would a psychic need with a book deal. You really haven't thought about this at all have you or you are being deliberately obtuse(really poor bait) :laugh:.


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Swami]
    #5112787 - 12/27/05 10:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Yeah, I mean, the last time someone demonstrated supernatural abilities repeatedly in front of a crowd... well... you know...

It was called socio-political unrest and had nothing to do with any alleged miracles. Same as with Gandhi and King. Please study your history.




Wait, so which history book recounts the socio-political events surrounding Jesus and his non-miracles? Let me know and I'll read it. And don't recommend me one of those "I'm gonna rewrite history like 2000 years later" books! I want that real shit from back in the day!


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: dr0mni]
    #5112824 - 12/27/05 10:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

you assume, like Randi, that all psychics are con artists or that they exploit their talent for money.

The only 'assumption' that I make is that every single claim or magic, miracle or other paranormal activity / demonstration has totally fallen flat under serious scrutiny. Research the archives: I name dozens of famous ones wherein I was accused of being close-minded and where the falsity of the event is obvious to all but the most hard-headed 'believer'.


The Dirty Lowdown:

Either you have never witenssed a psychic, so YOU are assuming they exist -without evidence or reason other than heresay.

or

You believe that you have witnessed a psychic, and apparently they did it merely to entertain you and not for any sort of self-gain (unlike every other human being).

or

You witnessed a charlatan and do not have the discriminatory skills to tell when you are being tricked.

or

You deluded yourself because of not fully undertanding the psychology of mind (pattern recognition; ad hoc reasoning) or the nature of probability.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (12/27/05 11:51 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: dr0mni]
    #5112849 - 12/27/05 10:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

"I'm gonna rewrite history like 2000 years later" books! I want that real shit from back in the day!

I am psychically guessing that your source was the gospels which were written from 80 to 150 years after the fact. They are not the real shit from back in the day; nor are they eye-witness accounts, but heresay passed down through 3-5 generations.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Swami]
    #5113144 - 12/27/05 11:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:

The only 'assummption' that I make is the every single claim or magic, miracle or other paranomral activity... :repost:

The Dirty Lowdown:

Either you have never witenssed a psychic, so YOU are assuming they exist -without evidence or reason other than heresay.

or

You believe that you have witnessed a psychic, and apparently they did it merely to entertain you and not for any sort of self-gain (unlike every other human being).

or

You witnessed a charlatan and do not have the discriminatory skills to tell when you are being tricked.

or

You deluded yourself because of not fully undertanding the psychology of mind (pattern recognition; ad hoc reasoning) or the nature of probability.




Look dude, I've said it before that my sis, as a VERY small child came down one morning and said to my parents "Grandma is dead". My parents assured her that Grandma was still alive, only to get the call later that day. When my Grandpa died (widower of above mentioned dead woman) many years later she also had a dream before hand, but dismissed it as just a dream like most grown-ups and adolescents would. Later that day we got the call... Strangely enough, I was also watching the 70's Show episode where Erics Grandparent dies when we received the call. But I'm not going to attempt to argue synchonicity with you. I've run in enough circles with Dip I'm dizzy and on the verge of vomiting.

I've shared dreams with THREE people (one of them being my sis)! And not just like "they were kinda similar" like strikingly similar beyond all coincidence. Even irrational associations within the dream (example: "it had a waterpark feel to it") were the same.

I HAVE witnessed these events, not performed by some con artist with candles and a crystal ball, by my little sister and loved ones! So :finger:

But of course I'm just deluding myself because of not fully undertanding the psychology of mind (pattern recognition; ad hoc reasoning) or the nature of probability. I mean, that's the ONLY possibility... :whatever:


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Swami]
    #5113151 - 12/27/05 11:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
"I'm gonna rewrite history like 2000 years later" books! I want that real shit from back in the day!

I am psychically guessing that your source was the gospels which were written from 80 to 150 years after the fact. They are not the real shit from back in the day; nor are they eye-witness accounts, but heresay passed down through 3-5 generations.




Yeah, that was my point


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