Home | Community | Message Board

Edabea
Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract, Kratom Powder For Sale   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   North Spore Cultivation Supplies, North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 10 months, 15 days
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5108767 - 12/26/05 10:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Hehe, Diplo, I am interested in buying swamp-land :smile:

But:
"Miss Z's electroencephalogram (EEG) was recorded each night"
She was cabled to the bed all the night.

"subject's room was dimly illuminated"
If she turned on the light, he could have noticed, as he did not sleep all the time.

"The leads from all electrodes were bound into a common cable running off the top of her head, and terminating in an electrode box on the head of the bed. This arrangement allowed her enough slack wire so that she could turn over in bed and otherwise be comfortable, but did not allow her to sit up more than two feet without disconnecting the wires from the box, an event which would show up on the recording equipment as a tremendous amount of sixty cycle artifact. Thus her movements were well controlled. Immediately above the observation window (about five and a half feet above the level of the subject's head) was a small shelf (about ten inches by five inches). Immediately above this shelf was a large clock, mounted on the wall."

Not sooo fast :wink: She was not able to look onto the desk without unplugging her cables. The only problem was the clock and with bright light she could have made out the reflections of the numbers on the plastic of the clock. But I can't find anything, that shows that she put on the light during the experiment.
But otherwise, you are right, there are strange unfitting things like the 'EEG-failures' or the possible reflection on the clock, also his sleeping...

I will find a better one :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (12/26/05 10:36 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinedr0mni
My Own Messiah
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 2,921
Loc: USF Tampa, Fl
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5108782 - 12/26/05 10:30 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
And you're not getting me. These phenomena HAVE been demonstrated for those who claim to have observed them.

That's not a demonstration as it cannot be differentiated from a delusion.




And how are you so sure that you are not delusional in your entire perception of reality? If all perception is subject to doubt because of the possibility of delusion then all conceptions of objective reality are invalid. *insert discussion of Solipsism here*

Quote:

Instead, I urge you to view lack of evidence as an indication of the lack of sufficient investigation into the phenomena.

Serious Question #1: Should the lack of evidence of Giant Spaghetti Monsters on Venus prompt us to keep looking anyway?

Serious Question #2: If not, why not?





Searching only where the light is brightest will never illuminate the paths into the unknown.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: dr0mni]
    #5108855 - 12/26/05 10:41 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Displayed outwardly towards what? Displayed outwardly so that ... someone could... *gasp*... observe it?! So wouldn't that mean that when the person experiencing the phenomena would be the person who is observing it, and for whom it is BEING DEMONSTRATED?

It has to be externally (to the person experienceing it) observable to qualify as a demonstration.

A dream is not a demonstration. Levitating in full view of 20 people IS.

Why is this so hard for you to get?

Serious Answer #2) [No], Because the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the creation of jaded

How can I know that mysticism doesn't have the same explanation? Why would you believe in some unobservable (except by the person who claims seeing it) thing and not in the Flying Spaghetti Monsters, which I can find several people who will claim to have seen.

How can you tell which is real? :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 10 months, 15 days
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5108944 - 12/26/05 10:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

This one isn't all too bad either:
"Maria was a migrant worker who, while visiting friends in Seattle, had a severe heart attack. She was rushed to Harborview Hospital and placed in the coronary care unit. A few days later, she had a cardiac arrest and an unusual out-of-body experience. At one point in this experience, she found herself outside the hospital and spotted a single tennis shoe on the ledge of the north side of the third floor of the building. Maria not only was able to indicate the whereabouts of this oddly situated object, but was able to provide precise details concerning its appearance, such as that its little toe area was worn and one of its laces was stuck underneath its heel. Upon hearing Maria's story, Clark, with some considerable degree of skepticism and metaphysical misgiving, went to the location described to see whether any such shoe could be found. Indeed it was, just where and precisely as Maria had described it, except that from the window through which Clark was able to see it, the details of its appearance that Maria had specified could not be discerned."

Of yourse, questions stay open again... but we come closer.
So, perhaps there are other reasons, beside nonexistence, that those experiences keep not to be proveable ? That is my conclusion.
Ps: Occams razor would dismiss those reasons, as it would easily overlook a murder, by default.

edit:
"A study on veridical perception in NDEs was conducted by Dr. Ken Ring and Madeline Lawrence. It included the 1985 account of Kathy Milne who was working as a nurse at Hartford Hospital. Milne had already been interested in NDEs, and one day found herself talking to a woman who had been resuscitated and who had an NDE . Following a telephone interview with Ken Ring on August 24, 1992, she described the following account in a letter:



She told me how she floated up over her body, viewed the resuscitation effort for a short time and then felt herself being pulled up through several floors of the hospital. She then found herself above the roof and realized she was looking at the skyline of Hartford. She marveled at how interesting this view was and out of the corner of her eye she saw a red object. It turned out to be a shoe ... [S]he thought about the shoe... and suddenly, she felt "sucked up" a blackened hole. The rest of her NDE account was fairly typical, as I remember.



I was relating this to a [skeptical] resident who in a mocking manner left. Apparently, he got a janitor to get him onto the roof. When I saw him later than day, he had a red shoe and he became a believer, too." (K. Milne, personal communication, October 19,1992)


After Dr. Ring's initial interview with Milne, he made a point of inquiring whether she had ever heard of the case of Maria's shoe [as described in the introduction above]. Not only was she unfamiliar with it, but she was utterly amazed to hear of another story so similar to the one she had just recounted to Dr. Ring. It remains an unanswered question as to how these isolated shoes arrived at their unlikely perches for later viewing by astonished NDErs and their baffled investigators."

They are all from:
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research11.html
There are tons of it...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (12/26/05 11:05 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5108965 - 12/26/05 11:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

"Miss Z's electroencephalogram (EEG) was recorded each night"
She was cabled to the bed all the night.

"subject's room was dimly illuminated"
If she turned on the light, he could have noticed, as he did not sleep all the time.

blah, blah, blah


Rationalizations by a person not seeking the Truth but rather seeking confirmation of the irrational ideas they are so emotionally invested in that they cannot see clearly the evidence against.

I have been studied by polysomnography (the diagnostic procedure described in that pseudo-science experiment). The EEG harness is a shower cap kind of hat with a bunch of wires that allow free movement even to the extent that the subject can get out of the bed and stand next to it without disrupting the test. I did it several times to grab a nearby book to help me fall asleep in the unfamiliar environment.

Dimly illuminated means nothing and could be (was in my test) easily bright enough to read TWO INCH HIGH BLACK NUMBERS written on a white card. GeeZUS!

blah, blah, blah...

How about a link to a proper double-blind test where a REALLY unlikely thing, like a big plastic spider, was placed on the roof of the building (not right above the subject's bed, duh) and the OOBE nut case correctly identified it (oh, and the researcher stays awake during the experiment, duh). By double-blind, I mean neither the researcher NOR the subject knew anything about it.

How about finding one of those instead of the sloppy pseudo-science you've found so far. That would be a lot more impressive than someone guessing the five digits written on a card ABOVE HER BED while the researcher dozed off in the control room.  :thumbdown:

Not sooo fast  She was not able to look onto the desk

Blue, it wasn't on a desk, it was on a shelf above her head. Read the experiment (I use that word loosely) again. And while you're at it, try to find stuff in real science journals that are peer-reviewed by other scientists to make sure there is no cheating.

A one-sided expose in a pro-ESP magazine with no peer review is not much better than someone telling me his grandmother predicted 9/11, but can't provide proof.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: dr0mni]
    #5109007 - 12/26/05 11:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

And how are you so sure that you are not delusional in your entire perception of reality?

I won't duplicate effort. Read this post and follow up with Philosophy 101 at your local community college.

Dip sighs


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5109047 - 12/26/05 11:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

They are all from:
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research11.html
There are tons of it...


All from a pro-mysticism web site with NO PEER REVIEW or any form of independent confirmation.

This renders the information neither here nor there. It could be for real or made up since without peer review, there is no check and balance to make sure they aren't lying.

Another example: Dr. Emoto outright lies about his crustal experiments. Like your OOBE web pages, no other scientists are given the opportunity to comment so whatever Emoto says on his web site goes unchallenged.

Don't you see that this puts us right back where we started: people just saying things outside controlled experiments and those things never happening when controls are put on place to prevent people just making things up.

If you're going to try to provide hard evidence, it has to be peer-reviewed and controlled or it's just one more guy claiming OOBEs and proving nothing.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 10 months, 15 days
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5109052 - 12/26/05 11:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You should read the reports more carefully :thumbdown:
here a requote:"The leads from all electrodes were bound into a common cable running off the top of her head, and terminating in an electrode box on the head of the bed. This arrangement allowed her enough slack wire so that she could turn over in bed and otherwise be comfortable, but did not allow her to sit up more than two feet without disconnecting the wires from the box, an event which would show up on the recording equipment as a tremendous amount of sixty cycle artifact. Thus her movements were well controlled. Immediately above the observation window (about five and a half feet above the level of the subject's head) was a small shelf (about ten inches by five inches). Immediately above this shelf was a large clock, mounted on the wall."

"Rationalizations by a person not seeking the Truth but rather seeking confirmation of the irrational ideas they are so emotionally invested in that they cannot see clearly the evidence against"
Same is true for some hypersatisfactioned scientific mind. Replace 'irrational' with 'scientific'.
Man,you should read the artikle ! :thumbdown:

"The second alternative is that she might have seen the number reflected in the surface of the case of the clock which was mounted on the wall above it. This was the only reflecting surface in the room placed in such a way that this might have been possible. Both Dr. Hastings and I spent some time in the dimly lit room to dark-adapt our eyes, and tried to read a number from the subject's position on the bed, as reflected on the surface of the clock. As the room was dimly lit and the surface of the clock was black plastic, we could not see anything of the number. However, when we shone a flashlight directly on the number (increasing its brightness by a factor somewhere between several hundred and several thousand) we could just make out what the number was in the much brighter reflection. Thus, although it seems unlikely, one could argue that the number constituted a "subliminal" stimulus in its reflection off the clock surface. Therefore, Miss Z's reading of the target number cannot be considered as providing conclusive evidence for a parapsychological effect."


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5109069 - 12/26/05 11:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Blue, rationalize all you like. The researcher who was supposed to be watching the subject FELL ASLEEP during the test. There's nothing more to say.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinedr0mni
My Own Messiah
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 2,921
Loc: USF Tampa, Fl
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5109097 - 12/26/05 11:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Displayed outwardly towards what? Displayed outwardly so that ... someone could... *gasp*... observe it?! So wouldn't that mean that when the person experiencing the phenomena would be the person who is observing it, and for whom it is BEING DEMONSTRATED?

It has to be externally (to the person experienceing it) observable to qualify as a demonstration.

A dream is not a demonstration. Levitating in full view of 20 people IS.

Why is this so hard for you to get?




So I was correct that you meant demonstration for multiple observers...

It is so "hard for me to get" because I do not know a reality outside of my own experience. I am not sure that these anthropomorphic objects that walk and talk around me are infact observing anything at all. I know nothing "outward" or "inward". All I have is THIS consciousness and THIS collection of experiences. I cannot know where my consciousness resides or arises from, so how can I know what is outside or not included in my consciousness.

What if everyone claimed to observe a phenomena but you could not? The phenomena was being sufficiently demonstrated for EVERYBODY else except for you. People would look at you with bewildered eyes and ask "You really don't see that?!" But alas, you have not seen any proof of the phenomena. Would you still believe it because it had been demonstrated to multiple people who all report precisely similar experiences (perhaps you are insane for not seeing it)? Or would you trust in your own perception and deny the phenomena without a doubt?

If I go to a meditation group and have a trancendental experience, and everyone else reports identical experiances to mine, does this not qualify as a demonstration of the phenomena to multiple people. Because I guarantee you a lot more than 20 people claim to have explored a consensually perceived trancendental reality/system during deep meditation.

Oh, and I've also shared dreams with two different people on separate occasions. While recounting our dreams to each other we kept exlaiming "Oh yeah! I almost forgot that part! ....Oh my God, that happened in mine too!" The detail involved and the associations made within the dream were seriously identical!

Quote:

Serious Answer #2) [No], Because the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the creation of
jaded


How can I know that mysticism doesn't have the same explanation? Why would you believe in some unobservable (except by the person who claims seeing it) thing and not in the Flying Spaghetti Monsters, which I can find several people who will claim to have seen.

How can you tell which is real? :shrug:




Again, because the only times I have ever heard anyone mention the FSM it has been in the context of "Oh yeah well if all beliefs are equally valid then so is my utterly absurd belief in a being of levitating pasta. And if you follow your own logic and accept my belief as valid then it only shows that your own belief in a God is just as absurd, baseless, and illogical." This is the foundation of SpaghettiMonsterism and anyone who thinks seriously about the whole thing knows it.

Mysticism on the other hand has been recorded through out history in every single culture. I've experienced it personally and I've talked to many who have as well. I did not buy into some prefabricated belief system which some whacko could've created. I explored and learned and closely examined my experiences in order to make sense of them, often looking into the beliefs of different religions and philosophies. Whatever corresponded to my experiences became a part of my Theory, just as scientific data that corresponds to a model of explanation becomes part of a scientific theory.

So far, in my experience, the world has been a mystical fucking place and I am in awe, not that any of this exists, but that I am able to be conscious of it at all...


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5109112 - 12/26/05 11:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

And you know what, in the end, I hear lots of blah about OOBEs, but not one person, not even that lady who claims frequent OOBEs or the array of Shroomerites who also claim frequent OOBEs, can manage to demonstrate it once to the James Randi Educational Foundation and snag an easy million dollars.

Why is that? Why all the talk and no demonstration?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 10 months, 15 days
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5109129 - 12/26/05 11:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

There's nothing more to say.



As I said, too about this case... It, at leat was a nice try, which could have lead to something, also his conclusion are not all too stupid, therefor I provided a link to his further studies...for the interested reader :smile:

What about the shoes of the other cases ? :wink:

But to rephrase my other question again: Did you ever ask yourself if there is perhaps another explanation towards the unprovability of such experiences despite/instead of pure nonexistence ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinedr0mni
My Own Messiah
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 2,921
Loc: USF Tampa, Fl
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5109158 - 12/26/05 11:39 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
And how are you so sure that you are not delusional in your entire perception of reality?

I won't duplicate effort. Read this post and follow up with Philosophy 101 at your local community college.

Dip sighs




Okay, so you direct me to a post that says exactly what I am saying and then insult me by telling me to take an Intro to Philosophy class (which, by the way, I just finished taking... passed with an A!  :crazy2:)

Yet you fail to refute my point! You know... since you are master of philosopy 101 and all... that the "Brain in the vat/matrix theory" poses serious obstacles on logically determining the validity of objective reality! Cartesian doubt has no current answer and that is why we are still talking about it 500 years later!

All phenomena which are presumed to be objective can only be known through subjective interpretation by the observer. This subjectivity makes absolute determination of any objectivity logically impossible. Therefore, subjective first-hand experience is all that can be known for certain.

Is there some reason why you find this untrue? Explain... and then provide links to sources... :smirk:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinedr0mni
My Own Messiah
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 2,921
Loc: USF Tampa, Fl
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5109173 - 12/26/05 11:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Blue, rationalize all you like.




Excuse me, but he logically refuted all of the possible errors that you pointed out.

He is not rationalizing, you are reducing his argument to "mystical hogwash, like all you mystical hogwashers like to spew..." without giving a proper rebuttle.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5109185 - 12/26/05 11:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

What about the shoes of the other cases ?

Some guy's story. It can't be confirmed and so falls into the category of anecdote. This is a far cry from scientific evidence.

But to rephrase my other question again: Did you ever ask yourself if there is perhaps another explanation towards the unprovability of such experiences despite/instead of pure nonexistence

I'm not sure what you're asking and I don't say anything about provability, I only say that none of these mystical events people claim have ever been demonstrated (except in the sloppy, meaningless 'experiments' you've linked above).

If they could be demonstrated in controlled conditions where the event is irrefutable, it would be the biggest discovery in history. Why hasn't that happened?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (12/26/05 11:56 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: dr0mni]
    #5109213 - 12/26/05 11:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

All phenomena which are presumed to be objective can only be known through subjective interpretation by the observe

So what dr0mni, geez.

In the end you can't even be sure YOU exist. You're going way off topic.

All I can go on is what I observe and when a scientist tells me about an observation, I can reproduce the experiment and see it for myself. When some nut case tells me he can astral project, then fails miserably as I observe him, that's enough for me to call him a liar or a self-deluded fool.

Why do you believe the self-deluded fool who cannot demonstrate all the bullshit he says he can do, yet you refuse to believe in Spaghetti Monsters who have exactly as much supporting evidence as the deluded fool?

I'll tell you why. Because you don't care about the Truth, you care only about justifying your emotional investment in made up stuff and won't admit that your beliefs are arbitrary and made up no matter how illogical they are.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinedr0mni
My Own Messiah
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 2,921
Loc: USF Tampa, Fl
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5109227 - 12/26/05 11:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

what you are looking for dip, is an on/off switch for mystical phenomena. You want to be able to walk into a laboratory and flip this little switch and watch the clockwork run. But you know a lot of science cannot be done this way.

We cannot create a baby universe in the laboratory. We can't recreate abiogenisis. Hell, there isn't even a sure-fire way for us to cultivate morel mushrooms! These phenomena must be observed either in their natural environments or through indirect evidence. Anecdotal evidence is indirect evidence of a conscious experience which cannot be measured in any other way.

When researching the realm of human consciousness we have to take these scraps of evidence and glean anything that we can from them. All data bears information of an event. And just as we will keep scanning the skies for little blips and static, we will continue to collect and analyse anecdotal reports of mystical phenomena. Because right now that is the only evidence we have regarding these experiences.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: dr0mni]
    #5109264 - 12/27/05 12:06 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

what you are looking for dip, is an on/off switch for mystical phenomena

No, I want the slightest, tiniest shred of evidence collected in controlled conditions where cheating cannot occur.

You want to be able to walk into a laboratory and flip this little switch and watch the clockwork run.

I'll grant you that some mystical phenomena, if real, may be hard to reproduce, but the world is full of mystics who claim to be able to produce mystical phenomena at will. I can name a half dozen Shroomerites who claim this for everything from telepathy to telekinesis. I've challenged all of them to demonstrate it the the JREF, I've even offered to pay their expenses.

Despite their claims of being able to produce the phenomena easily and at will, they all decline. What's up with that? Or could it be that none of them can do what they say they can do? If that's so, what does it say for mystical phenomena in general that mystics one and all either refuse to be tested or fail miserably when they are?

anecdotal reports of mystical phenomena. Because right now that is the only evidence we have regarding these experiences

BINGO!


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (12/27/05 12:13 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinedr0mni
My Own Messiah
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 2,921
Loc: USF Tampa, Fl
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5109323 - 12/27/05 12:15 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
All phenomena which are presumed to be objective can only be known through subjective interpretation by the observe

So what dr0mni, geez.

In the end you can't even be sure YOU exist. You're going way off topic.

i don't think it's off topic. I think its completely relevant because it lies at the heart of all of our assumptions. And until we can both agree on the same assumptions we will do nothing but bicker back and forth.

All I can go on is what I observe and when a scientist tells me about an observation, I can reproduce the experiment and see it for myself. When some nut case tells me he can astral project, then fails miserably as I observe him, that's enough for me to call him a liar or a self-deluded fool.

Then I ask you to recreate and validate all of the information from the Human Genome Project. Why can't you dive to the bottom of the ocean and find me a Giant Squid? You have no more first hand observation of these experiments than you do of mystical phenomena. Yet you put all of your faith in this science which you have read about from books, just like a Bible beater reads the Bible. You say that your readings are supported by your experience with the world, and the Bible beater claims that his life has changed upon acceptance of the Holy Word.

Why do you believe the self-deluded fool who cannot demonstrate all the bullshit he says he can do, yet you refuse to believe in Spaghetti Monsters who have exactly as much supporting evidence as the deluded fool?

I do not always believe in the deluded fool ("Mystic") who makes outrageous claims. But I give him the benefit of the doubt. I refuse to consider anything impossible, even the existence of a Spaghetti Monster. But unless I observe it for myself it remains a speculation, a possible experience of some other unknowable mind.

I too only believe for certain in things which have been demonstrated to me. But unlike you I do not limit myself by believing that all that has been demonstrated is all that is possible. To cut yourself off from so many possibilities will only result in narrow mindedness.


I'll tell you why. Because you don't care about the Truth, you care only about justifying your emotional investment in made up stuff and won't admit that your beliefs are arbitrary and made up no matter how illogical they are.

You're right Dip, I don't care about the truth. I am simply a weak willed person who can't face nihilism! But I'm not the one who has resorted to PERSONAL ATTACKS multiple times in this thread on different people. I am not the one who has become defensive and childish in my responses out of frustration that I can't make a mature and valid rebuttal.

Notice that you haven't replied to any of the points that work against your claims and only pick at insignificant word choices and details. When facts are provided for you they are never valid enough, not because they are illogical, but because you disagree with what they implicate.






Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 10 months, 15 days
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5109338 - 12/27/05 12:17 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

NDE under controlled double-blind experiments ?
:what:

" I only say that none of these mystical events people claim have ever been demonstrated (except in the sloppy, meaningless 'experiments' you've linked above)."
Meaningless ? If you think so...

"If they could be demonstrated in controlled conditions where the event is irrefutable, it would be the biggest discovery in history. Why hasn't that happened? "
The same I do ask, without excluding the possibility of its existence. Simple as that... (That makes out a good criminalist, btw :grin:)


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (12/27/05 12:27 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract, Kratom Powder For Sale   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   North Spore Cultivation Supplies, North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Mystical Experience?
( 1 2 all )
Swami 3,067 25 07/15/03 07:25 PM
by Grav
* Mysticism is as valid as science.
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Icelander 2,242 61 07/21/10 01:09 PM
by I AM SWIM
* What mysticism is Silversoul 917 10 04/19/06 06:45 AM
by redgreenvines
* ESSAY:Psychedelic induced mystical experiences by Alan Watts tekramrepus 2,414 6 03/21/03 01:43 PM
by pattern
* The mystical nature of the mystical
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
Rahz 4,676 118 07/08/09 11:34 AM
by Icelander
* Can scientific thinking (Physics) and Mystical thinking (Metaphysics) ever truly be reconciled ?
( 1 2 3 4 ... 12 13 all )
Brainstem 9,118 240 08/10/10 10:43 PM
by Icelander
* Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique
( 1 2 3 4 all )
DiploidM 5,032 70 06/07/06 07:20 PM
by fireworks_god
* Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states
( 1 2 3 all )
Epigallo 3,549 41 01/13/09 07:53 PM
by deranger

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
9,184 topic views. 2 members, 2 guests and 3 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic | ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2021 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.034 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 17 queries.