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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Deviate]
    #5106131 - 12/26/05 01:02 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i know you don't agree with what he was saying. what i am saying is that science is concerned with what is quantifiable and measurable, for example to understand a dream the first thing a scientist might do would be to record the brain waves of people sleeping. a mystic on the other hand would go to sleep and see what he could learn from experiencing a dream. what you learn from experience isn't as easily repeatable and quantiable but that doesn't mean it is of no use and should be thrown out as silly or childish.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: justAkid]
    #5106141 - 12/26/05 01:06 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Science seems to be a much better way to determine [relative] truth than personal observation alone, even if it is baseless.
Functionally, science has provided us with much much more than any faith-based reasoning.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Deviate]
    #5106148 - 12/26/05 01:08 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

yes, science is the most reliable method for determining the relations between phenomena in my opinion.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/20/05
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5106153 - 12/26/05 01:08 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Well, if it isn't our Discordian friend, the Manic himself.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5106178 - 12/26/05 01:13 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

It isn't.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5106182 - 12/26/05 01:13 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I know.


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OfflineTheGus
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5106353 - 12/26/05 02:09 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

but you must remember, science always takes a back seat to pure first hand experience


--------------------
"It is easier to teach a computer to play chess than to build a mudpie."Sherry Turkle Life on the Screen: Identity in the Age of the Internet
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts"-Einstein
:mrt: I pity the fool who break traffic laws with $870,000 of drugs in the car.      -mo0nlite_sonata
Psythos


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5106629 - 12/26/05 07:14 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Some oobes, esp those 'neardeath' ones have some accuracy of events and things percieved, which could not be percievable of the person within its body.
If you want, I will search sources...

Please do.

[Dip taps fingers on desk...]




Sorry, a bit late...
I just fast googled...good thing to start I think:

http://www.nderf.org/NDE%20Med%20Explicable.htm
"The common observation that NDErs can see or hear events going on around them while unconscious or clinically without vital signs.  In my investigation of over 250 NDEs shared with my web site, approximately 40% described such visual or auditory perceptions.  In my investigation, there was only one instance where the contributor confirmed what they saw during the experience to be false. This single report involved perceptions at the end of the NDE, where virtually all others had this component of the NDE at the beginning of the experience.  In scores of other NDE accounts the accuracy of perceptions while unconscious were checked by the experiencer.  These perceptions were consistently found to be accurate, and often very detailed.  This finding has been collaborated by a large number of other investigators in many retrospective studies and one prospective study. "

There are so many cases on this site, let's see if I will find one :wink:

edit: hmm..what about this ?
http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html
esp. this:
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence02.html
Quote:

Example 1:  An elderly woman had been blind since childhood. But, during her NDE, the woman had regained her sight and she was able to accurately describe the instruments and techniques used during the resuscitation her body. After the woman was revived, she reported the details to her doctor. She was able to tell her doctor who came in and out, what they said, what they wore, what they did, all of which was true. Her doctor then referred the woman to Moody who he knew was doing research at the time on NDEs.

Example 2:  One patient told Moody, ?After it was all over the doctor told me that I had a really bad time, and I said, ?Yeah, I know.? He said, ?Well, how do you know?? and I said, ?I can tell you everything that happened.? He didn?t believe me, so I told him the whole story, from the time I stopped breathing until the time I was kind of coming around. He was really shocked to know that I knew everything that had happened. He didn?t know quite what to say, but he came in several times to ask me different things about it.?

Example 3:  In another instance a woman with a heart condition was dying at the same time that her sister was in a diabetic coma in another part of the same hospital. The subject reported having a conversation with her sister as both of them hovered near the ceiling watching the medical team work on her body below. When the woman awoke, she told the doctor that her sister had died while her own resuscitation was taking place. The doctor denied it, but when she insisted, he had a nurse check on it. The sister had, in fact, died during the time in question.

Example 4:  A dying girl left her body and into another room in the hospital where she found her older sister crying and saying:


"Oh, Kathy, please don't die, please don't die."

The older sister was quite baffled when, later, Kathy told her exactly where she had been and what she had been saying during this time.


"After it was all over, the doctor told me that I had a really bad time, and I said, "Yeah, I know."


He said, "Well, how do you know?"

And I said, "I can tell you everything that happened."

He didn't believe me, so I told him the whole story, from the time I stopped breathing until the time I was kind of coming around. He was really shocked to know that I knew everything that had happened. He didn't know quite what to say, but he came in several times to ask me different things about it.


When I woke up after the accident, my father was there, and I didn't even want to know what sort of shape I was in, or how I was, or how the doctors thought I would be. All I wanted to talk about was the experience I had been through. I told my father who had dragged my body out of the building, and even what color clothes that person had on, and how they got me out, and even about all the conversation that had been going on in the area.


And my father said, "Well, yes, these things were true."

Yet, my body was physically out this whole time, and there was no way I could have seen or heard these things without being outside of my body.




--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (12/26/05 07:33 AM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: raytrace]
    #5106773 - 12/26/05 09:22 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quite right, yet the word metaphysics, in the sense of 'beyond' can mean ontologically prior to physics. The metaphysical is beyond as in GOD is ontologically prior to GOD's creation.
Thanks for the moment of clarity though.


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5106822 - 12/26/05 09:55 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
You reserve "mystical" as a title for all phenomena or beliefs that are illogical and stupid

No, let me be crystal clear about this.

I call mystical a phenomenon that cannot be observed, in the open, in broad daylight, and in conditions where an optical illusion or the well known propensity of humans to deceive themselves, especially when they desperately want something to be true, cannot interfere.

In other words, if you say you can do telekinesis, but you are utterly unable to demonstrate it, that is mystical. You cannot do it no matter how well you've convinced yourself that you can for if you could, you would be able to demonstrate it.

By settling for a purely physical explaination of the phenomena

You just aren't getting me.

THE PHENOMENA HAS NEVER BEEN DEMONSTRATED.

I'm not looking for a physical explanation of a mystical event because there IS NO EVENT! Nobody can perform telekinesis or telepathy, so there can be no physical explanation because there is no observable phenomena to explain. Why is this so hard for you to get?

Is it so wrong of me to ask to see something for myself before believing it exists? Would you buy the Brooklyn Bridge from me without having first seen the deed?

I have had mystical experiances and have met people who have had extremely similar experiances. This is EVIDENCE to me that I am not the only one experiencing these things and that they are ACTUAL phenomena

If you cannot produce observable evidence, then it is only evidence that you share a common brain topology with these other people and so also share similar delusions.

Why, if these things are so common that you, your friends, and countless others all experience these things, is it so that not one single person can produce the phenomena in the crucible of truth; in broad daylight and controlled conditions where no self-deception is possible? Why is that?

You say that the sensation of leaving ones body is an illusion caused by neurological activity. Will you also agree then that the sensation of being INSIDE one's body is also an illusion caused by neurological activity?

Of course. The Angular Gyrus is the region of the brain that gives rise to the sensation of being inside your head. This is why a disturbance of its normal function leads to OOBEs.

I don't deny that you experience [fill in the blank]. I say that, since your experience has exactly zero observable effects on anything outside your own thoughts, it has zero, influence, meaning, or significance in the real world outside your head.

There's a big difference between me saying that I dreamed I played golf with God and claiming to find the levitating golf ball we used under my pillow the next morning. Nobody can deny my dream, but anyone with the tiniest ability to think critically can deny the existence of the levitating golf ball (that is unless I can produce it, which mystics NEVER do).

Get it straight.




And you're not getting me. These phenomena HAVE been demonstrated for those who claim to have observed them. Some phenomena, especially those which we don't understand well, are difficult to replicate on demand. The Giant Squid for example, had been spotted by a few seamen and quickly earned the status of Mythical Sea Creature because of the sparcity of the reports. For decades only traces of the creature surfaced, perhaps some barely identifiable remains that were pulled out of whales stomachs. Once scientists new that there WAS indeed an actual phenomena occuring they set out to find a living Giant Squid. It wasn't until a few months ago that the first Giant Squid was caught on  video... for a split second.

Here is an example of a physical phenomena that had never been observed by the scientific community, and ONLY by eyewitnesses. But the previous lack of demonstratable evidence of the creatures existance, in your mind, would've indicated that this creature never existed at all. Instead, I urge you to view lack of evidence as an indication of the lack of sufficient investigation into the phenomena. Scientists have only proven that psychic viewing does not occur under laboratory conditions. They have not proven that it can't occur under ALL conditions.

http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/Ltmhealth17.htm

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/7.11/persinger.html

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20050905/handlight.html

These are links to articles about scientific research into spritual phenomena. The last one, about human hands emitting light, talks about using the light emitted from our body to diagnose illnesses. But mystics have been claiming to be able to read auras for thousands of years to do the same thing. They describe different kinds of color, pulsations in the aura. Although it seems obvious that humans cannot see the extremely small levels of light, the idea of diagnosing and illness from our bodily energies is more plausable and leaves room for the possibility that aura reading is an actual phenomena.

Now I know that this article doesn't prove that. I'm not posting these to argue the validity of each case. I'm posting these as an example of how spirituality and science can coincide, and that we are just on the verge of being able to seriously investigate these phenomena NOT as a physical phenomena, but as something in their own right. As mystical phenomena.

Quote:

If you claimed that you can travel inside your mind, how could you prove it to me?

You're off on an irrelevancy.




No I'm not. This is a completely relevant question. If you experience something something, there is no way for me to argue that you did not experience it! You cannot tell me that my mystical experiences are simply neurologicaly based illusions. True, the experience might have a neurological correlation, but this is cannot fully explain my experience any more than neuroscience can explain the origin of consciousness itself!

Quote:

I don't deny that you experience [fill in the blank]. I say that, since your experience has exactly zero observable effects on anything outside your own thoughts, it has zero, influence, meaning, or significance in the real world outside your head.




And you are saying that thoughts have no observable effects on the physical world? Communism was just an idea and it changed the course of human history. Same as Christianity and ... Materialism :smirk:.  Human thoughts have carved cities into mountain sides and are currently changing the climate of the earth. Our minds have unleashed the power of 1000 suns onto the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Even though these experiences might be immaterial, even though they might bear NO accuracy to physical actuality, they have a very real and dramatic effect on the physical world which I feel that you underestimate.

We make assumptions about the nature of mystical, psychic, and phsycial events. We expect that if something in a mystical experience resembles physicality that it must behave under the same set of rules (like seeing a clock in a dream) and if it doesn't then it is FALSE. But our existential paradigm doesn't allow for mystical and physical events to coincide logically, however they are both experianced (in REAL experiences) on a daily basis. Some say "throw one of them out and you no longer have a conflict", invalidating one in order to validate the other. But I say "change your paradigm and you'll see that they both fit into one picture".

Maybe mystical phenomena aren't what we initially thought they were, but perhaps the same is true about physicality.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5106869 - 12/26/05 10:19 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I do not equate that which is unknowable with that which is metaphysical. That which is unknowable may be because it remains unconscious to us. Unconsciousness can further mean that there is no means for information to come to our consciousness because of the unavailability of a formula, or of instrumentation to amplify our senses, or because of a lack of intuition or insight (a very real aspect of the human psyche).

Mysticism was more aptly defined by someone like Evelyn Underhill, whose books on the subject still remain 'word' to those of us who endeavor to define it:
"Mysticism is the art of union with Reality. The mystic is a person who has attained that union in greater or less degree; or who aims and believes in such an attainment." Practical Mysticism p.3

Now you may object for a variety of reasons to the word GOD, but the world "Reality" or Ultimate Reality is self explanatory and devoid of any and all anthropomorphisms. Ultimate Reality is THAT which is ultimately Real. THAT which is Real may or may not be known to itself (is the Ultimately Real self-conscious in other words?) or It may not be self-conscious. Right now I am reading The Laughing Jesus, and its authors suggest that creation serves an unconscious Reality by becoming the means through which It may know Itself. Nevertheless, no matter how one chooses to describe the various possibilities of Ultimate Reality - in naturalistic or supernatural ways, there remains the fact of existence.

If eternality precedes existence ("Essence precedes Existence"), then one chooses to speak of Being as the substratum of existence - Ontos, Being, the Ontological Argument. Then one can question what the essential nature of Essence might be. If one chooses to speak of Existence as the substratum of existence ("Existence precedes Essence"), one still must ask about its origin because when analyzed Existence is found to be reducible to smaller and less complex increments, and every amount seems to exist in time with a birth and death. With Essence, eternality is the stance assumed. With Existence, complexity still must derive from a simpler Reality, which is my rationale for harkening back to a state of utter simplicity - and unity.

The unity of a Singularity which does not exist is space and time can be grasped mathematically (not by me!), but grasped philosophically it belongs to metaphysics, one of the six branches of philosophy. Couple this notion with my choice to believe that such a Singularity is the 'seed' which 'germinates' into the [Kabbalistic] 'Tree of Life' - a mystical metaphor for the 'description' of Reality, and one can see where I wax metaphysical (if not metaphorical). This is a choice by which I attempt to navigate through this mystery of Human Existence. It is a choice to impose a model of some order upon this "buzzing blooming confusion" called Life. This choice will not hinder the acquisition of empirical data, but it does lend a whole dimension of depth and appreciation of Life - more than stereoscopic vision over monoscopic; more than technicolor over black and white...


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5107618 - 12/26/05 03:30 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Sorry, a bit late...
I just fast googled...good thing to start I think


Blue,

All your 'evidence' is characteristic of all the rest of the OOBE evidence. Namely, people who were 'unconscious' and later described their body being pulled out of an accident site; guess they weren't all that unconscious after all. Try that trick with someone who is electroencephalographicaly unconscious (read: really unconscious) and you'll get a different result.

Or people who know they are IN A HOSPITAL and who dream they are floating around IN A HOSPITAL. Duh. How could they be wrong?

You'll notice that while they all describe relatives crying nearby, doctors and nurses walking around, medical devices, [fill in your favorite hospital scene], not one of them can describe something they DON'T ALREADY KNOW.

Why don't they ever describe things like maybe the number of air conditioning ducts above the drop-ceiling, or the electrical equipment on the roof of the hospital, or the kind of shingles up there, or the fact that there happened to be three men fixing the TV antenna up there that day.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: dr0mni]
    #5107643 - 12/26/05 03:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

And you're not getting me. These phenomena HAVE been demonstrated for those who claim to have observed them.

That's not a demonstration as it cannot be differentiated from a delusion.

Merriam-Webster Online:

demonstration - 2 : an outward expression or display

The opperant word is OUTWARD.

Instead, I urge you to view lack of evidence as an indication of the lack of sufficient investigation into the phenomena.

Serious Question #1: Should the lack of evidence of Giant Spaghetti Monsters on Venus prompt us to keep looking anyway?

Serious Question #2: If not, why not?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (12/26/05 04:36 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5107685 - 12/26/05 03:55 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The unity of a Singularity which does not exist is space and time can be grasped mathematically (not by me!), but grasped philosophically it belongs to metaphysics, one of the six branches of philosophy. Couple this notion with my choice to believe that such a Singularity is the 'seed' which 'germinates' into the [Kabbalistic] 'Tree of Life' - a mystical metaphor for the 'description' of Reality, and one can see where I wax metaphysical

Re singularities and the speed of light:

I don't know where you stand on the possibility of exceeding the speed of light, but in general, I've found that those with a mystical bent insist that it is possible to exceed the speed of light, we just haven't figured out how yet. I presume you fall into that camp, correct me if I'm wrong.

In any case, here is a classic, glaringly obvious contradiction of mystics. If it were possible to exceed the speed of light, then singularities become ordinary objects exactly the same as an ordinary planet, only rather denser.

The thing that makes a singularity weird and special IS the light speed limit. Without that speed limit, singularities are ordinary; certainly not metaphysical.

So which is it? Can C be exceeded or are singularities metaphysical? It cannot be both.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (12/26/05 04:43 PM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5108160 - 12/26/05 07:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

This is also not the very best report, but at least she did know, that her first surgeon called the "undertaker", when her second rushed in... Was she not dead ? (But perhaps that's another thread)

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research11.html
Quote:

[After her visit to heaven, she returns to where her body is located.]
With a terribly hard crash, I became aware of the scene I had left earlier - the fire trucks, and now an ambulance. There were men who were picking up my body and loading it into the ambulance. I was in a state of complete grief. I felt that I had become Eve and was cast out of the garden of Eden.
As I was descending down this tunnel, my heart was already attached to my home beyond. I was begging not to leave. I crashed down into this realm of existence and was suddenly confused by time and space. It was as if I had never existed physically. I was suddenly disoriented. My concern was for my mother, because she was by herself and she was losing a sixteen year old daughter. She knew that this was happening because the ambulance attendant looked at the driver in front and said, "DOA. DOA," which means of course dead on arrival. The driver turned off the siren and slowed down the ambulance. Before, he had been driving in a very reckless manner.

We were coming out of the mountains. As we did that, my concern was for the pain of my mother. I simple wanted to comfort her and to wrap my soul around her. To assuage the loss of a daughter, the loss of a child, I found myself simply praying for her.

I followed the ambulance to the hospital and I watched as my body was unloaded. My mother followed the gurney into the emergency room. I watched as the first doctor went to work on me. I wasn't particularly interested in the first doctor because the first doctor had, that day, been through motorcycle accidents coming out of the mountains. He had been through a very long day and he was not concerned with someone who had been brought in dead on arrival. He had no connection with me. He didn't care and had no affection. So I had no interest in watching what he did because my interest was based on affection and love.

I then left the emergency room and was above my mother and some friends who had followed her into the other room. I again tried to communicate with them. I tried to let them know that, "This is a very joyous occasion. I am dead on arrival. Hopefully all would go well. They are never going to be able to revive me. I was going to be dead now. Death had become life to me. Death was not something to be frightened of, but something to look forward to."

What happened then was the first doctor pronounced me dead and was sending my body off to the morgue. My own personal physician, who was a country doctor and a very gruff man, stormed into the emergency room in a tuxedo with his black bag. He looked at the nurse on the phone who was calling the morgue, and looked at the doctor who was washing his hands, and looked at my [covered] body and said, "What the hell happened here? Where is the patient?" They said, "She was dead on arrival." He said, "The hell she was." He proceeded to scream at the other nurse who was sort of standing off in the corner, "I want injections of adrenaline. Bring them to me immediately and come over here and assist me." He began to go to work on my body. He began to beat on the chest and began to shock. I was simply terrified by this turn of events and disgusted that they would treat a body so brutally.

All of a sudden I sort of became protective towards my body, even though I wanted nothing to do with it. I began to be protective. They could at least be nice about it. But they were beating on my chest and shocking my body, but I was up in the corner of the emergency room accompanied by other essences who were keeping me contained in that emergency room.





I will search for some more evident cases...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflinejustAkid
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5108239 - 12/26/05 08:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I don't know where you stand on the possibility of exceeding the speed of light, but in general, I've found that those with a mystical bent insist that it is possible to exceed the speed of light, we just haven't figured out how yet. I presume you fall into that camp, correct me if I'm wrong.

In any case, here is a classic, glaringly obvious contradiction of mystics. If it were possible to exceed the speed of light, then singularities become ordinary objects exactly the same as an ordinary planet, only rather denser.




In this month's edition of The Scientific American there was an article about sound travelling faster than the speed of light under certain circumstances. I'll type exactly what it says.

"Joel Mobley of the University of Mississippi contends that an ultrasound pulse will disperse in a mix of water and plastic beads, so that the pulse's different frequencies vary greatly in speed. The sum of these components would create faster-than-light, or super-luminal, group velocity. Mobley's initial subliminal experiments support his calculations, he reported at the Acoustical Society of America meeting on October 19, 2005."

-JR Minkel

But this is still based on baseless Science, or so I am assuming Science to be baseless in your eyes by the lack of your responce to my post.


--------------------
Trust thyself.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5108290 - 12/26/05 08:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Ah, here we are, there are experiments with oobes and one person couid identify a 5-digit random number in another room:
http://www.near-death.com/tart.html

More of his work:
http://www.paradigm-sys.com/display/ctt_articles1.cfm?ID=50

edit: esp: http://www.paradigm-sys.com/display/ctt_articles2.cfm?ID=50


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (12/26/05 08:42 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: justAkid]
    #5108446 - 12/26/05 09:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

"Joel Mobley of the University of Mississippi contends that an ultrasound pulse will disperse in a mix of water and plastic beads, so that the pulse's different frequencies vary greatly in speed. The sum of these components would create faster-than-light, or super-luminal, group velocity. Mobley's initial subliminal experiments support his calculations, he reported at the Acoustical Society of America meeting on October 19, 2005."

This is a predictable quotation by a science-ignorant layperson who fancies himself a physicists but doesn't have a clue.

If information could travel faster than light, then it would arrive at the destination BEFORE it was sent.

In other words, if music traveled from your CD player to your speakers faster than C, then the music would come out of the speakers BEFORE you pressed Play. This is a meaningless but necessary consequence of information traveling faster than C, and it begs the question: what if after Beethoven starts playing from the speakers (before you pressed the Play button) you change your mind and put in a Madonna CD. Where did the Beethoven music come from since you never played it in the first place?

As for your misunderstanding of the Scientific American experiment on group velocities (hint: group velocity has a specific meaning to a physicist different than it does laypeople, look it up), this is no different than pointing the dot of a laser on a far distant wall. If you move the laser at sub-light speed, the dot itself will move at superluminal speeds. This does not violate the light speed limit because that limit applies only to the transmitting of information faster than light. Wave interference patterns as in the SA experiment you misconstrue or the dot made by a laser DO NOT transmit information and so are within the light speed limits imposed by nature.

And to preempt you, this goes double for the widely misunderstood phenomena of entanglement. Entanglement does not transmit information faster than C, it only allows each of two distant observers to know what the other must be seeing. No information is, or could be, exchanged.

lack of your responce to my post

I responded to your ignorant question by directing you to the Scientific Method. Get back to me when you've had a look.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (12/29/05 10:32 AM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5108476 - 12/26/05 09:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

These were copied with a black marking pen, in figures approximately two inches high, onto a small piece of paper. Thus they were quite discrete visually. This five-digit random number constituted the parapsychological target for the evening.

I then slipped it into an opaque folder, entered the subject's room, and slipped the piece of paper onto the shelf without at any time exposing it to the subject.


Holly shit, Blue! You HAVE to be kidding me. "The answer to the experiment was placed in the same room with the subject". AMAZING! How could she have known the answer? It must be a real OOBE!

And Aye Dios Mio!: "Occasionally I dozed during the night, beside the equipment..."

The guy who was supposed to make sure the subject didn't peek at the answer DIRECTLY ABOVE HER BED IN PLAIN SIGHT, admits to falling asleep during the test.

If you buy into this pseudo-science bullshit, I have some swampland I'd like to sell you.

Give me a friggin break! :rofl2:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (12/26/05 09:42 PM)


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Offlinedr0mni
My Own Messiah
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 2,921
Loc: USF Tampa, Fl
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5108730 - 12/26/05 10:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
And you're not getting me. These phenomena HAVE been demonstrated for those who claim to have observed them.

That's not a demonstration as it cannot be differentiated from a delusion.

Merriam-Webster Online:

demonstration - 2 : an outward expression or display

The opperant word is OUTWARD.

Instead, I urge you to view lack of evidence as an indication of the lack of sufficient investigation into the phenomena.

Serious Question #1: Should the lack of evidence of Giant Spaghetti Monsters on Venus prompt us to keep looking anyway?

Serious Question #2: If not, why not?





Displayed outwardly towards what? Displayed outwardly so that ... someone could... *gasp*... observe it?! So wouldn't that mean that when the person experiencing the phenomena would be the person who is observing it, and for whom it is BEING DEMONSTRATED?

When you say "demonstrate" you do not demand the definition of Websters. You mean to say "demonstrated for more than one person at the same time". This of course is impossible to do with subjective experience at the present moment. Just as you can not fully demonstrate that you played golf with God, I cannot demonstrate my mystical experiences to you. *insert discussion of Cartesian doubt here*

To answer your questions:

Serious Answer #1) No.

Serious Answer #2) Because the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the creation of jaded materialists who set out to prove the unprovability of God and IDT by creating a fictional diety, the subjective experience of whom can never be verified. That is the whole purpose of it's existence, especially in the minds of those who use the FSM argument as if it sufficiently proves any point at all. There is no mystery about such a beings existence because the very name evokes the sneering implication that mysticism is just a bunch of bullshit.

The FSM of course DOES exist as a cultural meme, an idea/philosophy that fits into our culturally fabricated paradigm. Its existence in some place within the collective human psyche is undeniable. The power of this meme and its impact on physicality is yet to be seen.


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