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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: dr0mni]
    #5103105 - 12/24/05 10:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You reserve "mystical" as a title for all phenomena or beliefs that are illogical and stupid

No, let me be crystal clear about this.

I call mystical a phenomenon that cannot be observed, in the open, in broad daylight, and in conditions where an optical illusion or the well known propensity of humans to deceive themselves, especially when they desperately want something to be true, cannot interfere.

In other words, if you say you can do telekinesis, but you are utterly unable to demonstrate it, that is mystical. You cannot do it no matter how well you've convinced yourself that you can for if you could, you would be able to demonstrate it.

By settling for a purely physical explaination of the phenomena

You just aren't getting me.

THE PHENOMENA HAS NEVER BEEN DEMONSTRATED.

I'm not looking for a physical explanation of a mystical event because there IS NO EVENT! Nobody can perform telekinesis or telepathy, so there can be no physical explanation because there is no observable phenomena to explain. Why is this so hard for you to get?

Is it so wrong of me to ask to see something for myself before believing it exists? Would you buy the Brooklyn Bridge from me without having first seen the deed?

I have had mystical experiances and have met people who have had extremely similar experiances. This is EVIDENCE to me that I am not the only one experiencing these things and that they are ACTUAL phenomena

If you cannot produce observable evidence, then it is only evidence that you share a common brain topology with these other people and so also share similar delusions.

Why, if these things are so common that you, your friends, and countless others all experience these things, is it so that not one single person can produce the phenomena in the crucible of truth; in broad daylight and controlled conditions where no self-deception is possible? Why is that?

You say that the sensation of leaving ones body is an illusion caused by neurological activity. Will you also agree then that the sensation of being INSIDE one's body is also an illusion caused by neurological activity?

Of course. The Angular Gyrus is the region of the brain that gives rise to the sensation of being inside your head. This is why a disturbance of its normal function leads to OOBEs.

If you claimed that you can travel inside your mind, how could you prove it to me?

You're off on an irrelevancy.

I don't deny that you experience [fill in the blank]. I say that, since your experience has exactly zero observable effects on anything outside your own thoughts, it has zero, influence, meaning, or significance in the real world outside your head.

There's a big difference between me saying that I dreamed I played golf with God and claiming to find the levitating golf ball we used under my pillow the next morning. Nobody can deny my dream, but anyone with the tiniest ability to think critically can deny the existence of the levitating golf ball (that is unless I can produce it, which mystics NEVER do).

Get it straight.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (12/25/05 03:46 PM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
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Registered: 05/07/04
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5104172 - 12/25/05 06:40 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Diplo, still struggeling with those problems ? :smile:
Some oobes, esp those 'neardeath' ones have some accuracy of events and things percieved, which could not be percievable of the person within its body.
If you want, I will search sources...

I think, science is like a tool for the blind, which is very useful and nescessary, but it leaves the question if it, one day, can make the blind see...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5104219 - 12/25/05 08:29 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Some oobes, esp those 'neardeath' ones have some accuracy of events and things percieved, which could not be percievable of the person within its body.
If you want, I will search sources...


Please do.

[Dip taps fingers on desk...]


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflinejustAkid
Member of myCulture

Registered: 11/05/05
Posts: 323
Loc: The Present
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5105375 - 12/25/05 08:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Anything that does not obey the rules of nature (which science studies) is outside the realm of science by definition.




What are the rules of the rules of nature?

In other words why are the rules of nature in this order?


--------------------
Trust thyself.


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OfflinejustAkid
Member of myCulture

Registered: 11/05/05
Posts: 323
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Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5105382 - 12/25/05 08:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

If you cannot, your statement is baseless in the eyes of science. This is how science works.






What is science based on?
And what is that based on?
And what is that based on?

It's just turtles all the way down...

... there is no base.

It's the pot calling the kettle black here .


--------------------
Trust thyself.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: justAkid]
    #5105520 - 12/25/05 09:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

What is science based on?

Look up: Scientific Method.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflinejustAkid
Member of myCulture

Registered: 11/05/05
Posts: 323
Loc: The Present
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Diploid]
    #5105865 - 12/25/05 11:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You can totally ignore what I posted and ignore the "thesis" of my post or you try to answer...

What is the Scientific Method based on?
What is that based on?

And if it is turtles all the way down then we can say Science is another baseless faith...

Unless you would like to name the self-causing explanation that is at the base of explanation for the Scientific Method.


--------------------
Trust thyself.


Edited by justAkid (12/25/05 11:48 PM)


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: justAkid]
    #5105985 - 12/26/05 12:17 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

justAkid said:
What is the Scientific Method based on?




Observation. What is mysticism based on?


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OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5106019 - 12/26/05 12:27 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

observation.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Deviate]
    #5106038 - 12/26/05 12:31 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Can these observations be demonstrated in any way?


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OfflinejustAkid
Member of myCulture

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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5106048 - 12/26/05 12:34 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

justAkid said:
What is the Scientific Method based on?



Observation. What is mysticism based on?

-itstarssaddam





And as I said earlier it is the pot calling the kettle black.

Mysticism is no more baseless than Science.

If I could hear what Diploid wants to say?...


--------------------
Trust thyself.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: justAkid]
    #5106054 - 12/26/05 12:37 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

justAkid said:
Quote:

Quote:

justAkid said:
What is the Scientific Method based on?



Observation. What is mysticism based on?

-itstarssaddam




Umm, why did you quote me with a hyphen?

Quote:

Mysticism is no more baseless than Science.




Oh my.


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
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Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5106061 - 12/26/05 12:40 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
Can these observations be demonstrated in any way?




can you demonstrate you had a dream? if not then is all material written about dreams useless?


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Deviate]
    #5106078 - 12/26/05 12:46 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
can you demonstrate you had a dream? if not then is all material written about dreams useless?




Why yes, dreaming is actually a biological necessity, believe it or not. Experiments have been performed on sleeping animals, in which they were awoken at the exact moment that they began to show the physical symptoms of entering into a dream state. If prevented from entering this state for a prolonged period of time, they would die. William S. Burroughs discusses this thoroughly in a lecture that I listened to recently, and he believes that the biological function of dreams is to prepare us for the voyage into outer space. This of course is disputable, but the biological necessity of dreaming is not.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Deviate]
    #5106085 - 12/26/05 12:49 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

thats doesn't prove they were actually experiencing a dream, only that they show a certain set of physical symptons.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Deviate]
    #5106099 - 12/26/05 12:53 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Why did they die then? Any meth-head can tell you that sleep can be avoided for days and days without the threat of death.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Deviate]
    #5106100 - 12/26/05 12:53 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

btw, what burroughs is saying is no different from a scientist studying the physiology of mystical states of consciousness and theorizing that these states allow mental access to other dimensions.


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OfflinejustAkid
Member of myCulture

Registered: 11/05/05
Posts: 323
Loc: The Present
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5106103 - 12/26/05 12:54 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:


itstarssaddam said:
Umm, why did you quote me with a hyphen?




It will never happen again :grin:


--------------------
Trust thyself.


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OfflineDeviate
newbie
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Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Deviate]
    #5106106 - 12/26/05 12:55 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
btw, what burroughs is saying is no different from a scientist studying the physiology of mystical states of consciousness and theorizing that these states allow mental access to other dimensions.




because they didn't go through what well term " sleep phase B". this still says nothing about what is being subjectively experienced in the minds of animals.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: Mysticism And The Chase [Re: Deviate]
    #5106112 - 12/26/05 12:57 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
btw, what burroughs is saying is no different from a scientist studying the physiology of mystical states of consciousness and theorizing that these states allow mental access to other dimensions.




I don't necessarilly agree with what Burroughs was saying, I was simply alluding to the scientific experiments which he discussed. Also, the vast realm of outer space is observable. Hell, I'm about to step outside and take a look at it. Alternate dimensions on the other hand, are not, unless you are talking about quantum mathematics, which I don't think you are.


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