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OfflinePDU
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Re: my schizofrenic friend (who got it from doing hallucinogens) is going to smoke salvia [Re: heidegger]
    #5260217 - 02/03/06 06:14 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

perhaps an unpopular opinion, but i think in this case the issue is with the experience and not the chemical reaction in his brain.

Salvia made me paranoid, it laid out a construct of reality that i was living in a computer simulation and rearranged my concept of freewill.

Anyways, my experience is irrelevent - all im saying is that Salvia may increase his paranoid delusions in the short term (things get confusing when your abusing drugs), However, as in my experience - I cant refuse my preminitions to follow certain attractors.. and even if it is detrimental shortterm, things are meant to happen for a reason in my world. (that concept of freewill!) Generally everything starts to make sense in retrospect..

If the kid already has a "terrence-mckenna-view-of-the-world" perhaps this will solidify and help him come to terms with his place in this reality. Everything takes time, he's got institutions telling him he's sick, a world telling him how to be, and intuition telling him everything else, while everyone tells him thats wrong.

I say sit him, and help him grasp his experience, and buy him a book on the tao. :wink:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: my schizofrenic friend (who got it from doing hallucinogens) is going to smoke salvia [Re: PDU]
    #5260263 - 02/03/06 06:34 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

His schizoid behaviour is from his mom, it is an inheritance fro his mother. And I don't know why, but I'm almost sure that if uses proper anykind of psychedelics could help him out.
Just keep us informed of this matter cause I'm curious.
Oh and.....whish him all the luck.


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OfflineDinahTheCat
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Re: my schizofrenic friend (who got it from doing hallucinogens) is going to smoke salvia [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #5260392 - 02/03/06 07:14 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah i do think its possible that a spiritual experience from a drug "possibly" might help him out although in the case of schizophenria, it can vary very much from person to person, so it is very risky to try, but yes for most (for me too) salvia 20x, above, puts you in the drivers seat of the car, but you my friend aren't the one driving; the control of your actions, thoughts, feelings, prety much everything, is out of touch with the experience, so daily use would defientely escacalte pyschosis of probably anyone(unless very spiritual: a shaman's thinking is very different) escpeialy with this disorder. keep in touch with him, try to help as much as possible and inform us please. Thanks


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OfflineWillieTomg
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Re: my schizofrenic friend (who got it from doing hallucinogens) is going to smoke salvia [Re: DinahTheCat]
    #5260837 - 02/03/06 09:23 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Wait a minute, what was the thread title again?

Quote:

my schizofrenic friend (who got it from doing hallucinogens) is going to smoke salvia




Hmmm... seems like there's some important information there... if only there were a way to highlight it...

Quote:

my schizofrenic friend (WHO GOT IT FROM DOING HALLUCINOGENS) is going to smoke salvia




And you guys are telling him to seek spiritual experiences with drugs...

Y'know what? Whatever. I see a large number of people on this forum apparently get a kick out of seeing people perma-fried, and all I can do is cast my two cents and point out how illogical it is based on the thread title (and the entire OP for that matter.) And what's sick is that I've already been in a half dozen arguments in a thread just like this in Mental and Physical Being.

I guess I can't do much to stop you from where I sit, but I say it's a stupid idea.


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Offlinestemmer
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Re: my schizofrenic friend (who got it from doing hallucinogens) is going to smoke salvia [Re: WillieTomg]
    #5260989 - 02/03/06 10:00 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

People who actually have the disorder should not smoke salvia.
It is almost impossible for them to benefit from it.
I have relatives on both sides of my family who killed themselves because of the disorder. I knew one of those people, and if you were to give him even the littlest hit of salvia he probably would have enjoyed it, but it would only accentuate his disorder in days to come.
Hallucinogens can trigger schizophrenia, mainly for people who are genetically prone to it.
MORE Crossfiring synapses is not a good thing for someone with schizophrenia. Hallucinogens and schyzophrenia are most definately related in more ways than one.


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OfflinePDU
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Re: my schizofrenic friend (who got it from doing hallucinogens) is going to smoke salvia [Re: WillieTomg]
    #5261187 - 02/03/06 11:11 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Actually willie i think you would have to define permafried - obviously we dont know how bad this kid is. It was said in the title that he's skitzo, later in the threat its mentioned that he got it from his "skitzoid" disorder and his paranoid thinking from his mother -

Guess what.. There's tons of well spoken, intelligent, artistic, and functional people on these boards that fall under the skitzoid personality type, I am one of them.

None of us here know the real severity or situation of this kid - "kids" "shouldnt" be doing drugs at all, but some of us have and will, and some of us are better for it... Chemically vs. life situation/reality construct/intelligence is a big difference as i was saying before.

However, to accept mental illness straight up, because someone "suffers" symptoms that many of us enjoy, understand, or at very worst have learned to live with - is wrong.

Situation - living with parents...

Hospitalization/dangerous behavior

Psychiatric drugs/counselling

diet

school/education

friends

and knowledge..

are all factors that come to play here. I think both opinions have been represented fairly depending on the answers to these unknown variables and i think.. since your as "in the dark" as us, that your statement is invalid.


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OfflineCutter
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Re: my schizofrenic friend (who got it from doing hallucinogens) is going to smoke salvia [Re: stemmer]
    #5261277 - 02/03/06 11:35 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I agree with WillieTomg and stemmer about using street psychotropics as a home cure for schizophrenia is playing with fire.

I'm all for natural cures
I have a cousin that has schizophrenia, he just tried strangling his mother because he thought she was a demon, and 2 months before that he jumped off a bridge landing on the ground 30 feet below breaking a couple ribs, and spraining his ankle, running from supposed invisible demons trying to kill him.

I hear a lot about this disease, and when I was in my mid teens I tripped with a bunch of guys that i knew, and one guy seemed perfectly normal, untill he tried acid that time and freaked out, found out later that he is schizo and the acid triggered it.

Not saying he wouldn't have been affected by it later in life, but drugs only make it worse. Only when he was on the medication the doctor provided was he stable, but those drugs made him impotent and gain weight so he stops taking them, then freak out a couple weeks later.

Schizophrenia is a degenerative disease, it only gets worse, and even though there are effective treatments, there is no cure.

Thinking that salvia is some miracle unfound cure for schizophrenia is ignorant, and careless.

And thinking schizophrenia is a good thing, like some blessed shaman, or some other glamorized position is really messed up.
Try watching a son strangle his own mother, or jump off of brides hurting himself and tell me that schizophrenia is cool then.

Moral of the story, don't give people with schizophrenia drugs, especially psychotropics!


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Offlinedubbyah
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Re: my schizofrenic friend (who got it from doing hallucinogens) is going to smoke salvia [Re: Cutter]
    #5261285 - 02/03/06 11:36 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

i didnt say anything about schizoid personality disorder, his mom had schizophrenia and so does he


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Offlinestemmer
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Re: my schizofrenic friend (who got it from doing hallucinogens) is going to smoke salvia [Re: dubbyah]
    #5261325 - 02/04/06 12:02 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

They are the same thing dude.
Unless you are differentiating between schizotypal personalities, and actual schizophrenia.
I think we were all talking about full blown schizophrenia and those who are prone to the disorder.
If you want to know why I seem to care, Its because I cant take psychadelics anymore. I noticed some very big changes in myself at around the age of 22(if you know what I mean) due to ayahuasca.
I learned things from these drugs that are by no means normal, and I know how weird they can get for normal people.
If I ever did ayahuasca again I would know even more about how prone to schizophrenia I am, or I would actually become very schizophrenic for life. Ayahuasca doesnt last for a week, tappering off for 2 years for most people. 2 years later I still see visuals.
If someone dosed me with salvia, id probably beat the shit out of them, and Im not a violent person.
If your friend wants to learn from it he will learn some things about his problem, some of it will almost certainly consist of things he was better off not muddying his condition with though.

If I were you id do all I can to make him not want to do that to himself.


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OfflinePDU
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Re: my schizofrenic friend (who got it from doing hallucinogens) is going to smoke salvia [Re: dubbyah]
    #5261327 - 02/04/06 12:02 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

sorry, read someone elses post thinking it was you.

What are his symptoms exactly?


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: my schizofrenic friend (who got it from doing hallucinogens) is going to smoke salvia [Re: WillieTomg]
    #5261707 - 02/04/06 06:10 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I see a large number of people on this forum apparently get a kick out of seeing people perma-fried





I don't think that's it.
On the one hand you have extremes of the "harmless" philosophy, on the other hand you have a lot of our members who routinely take excessive risks.

Alot of us don't believe things will go wrong. Harm? It must be government lies, all of it. It doesnt ever happen.
Especially strong is this lobby in Cannabis circles on this website. Some people feel that anyone should use weed and anyone who objects is a brainwashed bastard.

---

Then there are people who routinely take excessive risks. An extreme thereof was one member we had to let go. There are painkillers that are mostly acetaminophen (lets say "aspirin") with a bit of codeine or a similar opioid.

You can easily separate the bulk of the crud ("aspirin") via a cold water extraction using two glasses, cold water and a coffee filter.

But no, our guy just swallowed them whole in frightening numbers because he could not be bothered to extract.

"eight grams of acetaminophen are no reason for concern" he stated, and started flaming and growling to defend that statement. When he was finally pressed hard enough to reveal what led to this lethal advice, it turned out he had read somewhere that "most people do not DIE below 8gr of acetaminophen".

That kook used pseudoscience and hostility to defend that the FATALITY BORDER in most people was "no reason for concern". And why?! because he couldn't be bothered to use two glasses and a coffee filter to do a five minute cold water extraction which would turn a lifethreateningly poisonous dose into a perfectly safe one. (if you have a habit)

Taking twenty-four regular strength Tylenol's worth of Acetaminophen is "no reason for concern" and was rabidly defended to the very end - his banning for consistently pushing potentially lethal advice to n00bs.

---

So you have people who see no harm and people who rabidly deny any harm.

It almost seems like a magical incantation that one has to make everything seem harmless to assure no harm will come to oneself.

If you choose to take what are assumed to be substantial risks then that is your own choice, but don't advise people to take substantial risks because you do.

People with psychosis and especially schizophrenia should NEVER take psychedelics. Even "harmless" pot is a notorious offender in causing relapses in schizophrenic people.

It is utterly misguided to recommend a schizophrenic to start using a psychedelic.

If you (anyone) recommend a schizophrenic to take psychedelics:

--The schizophrenic will pay the price
--Their family and loved ones pay the price
--The medical system is burdened by an unneeded flareup of a psychosis that may require hospitalization
--The psychedelic movement suffers for yet another TRUE casualty

And all this offset by a three-minute salvia high that isnt even recreational in most people.

I mean -damn- people! Theres lots of harm reduction work to be done here.


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OfflineCutter
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Re: my schizofrenic friend (who got it from doing hallucinogens) is going to smoke salvia [Re: Asante]
    #5261764 - 02/04/06 07:06 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Very well said, your post should be stickied somewhere obvious.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: my schizofrenic friend (who got it from doing hallucinogens) is going to smoke salvia [Re: Asante]
    #5261804 - 02/04/06 07:50 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:

And all this offset by a three-minute salvia high that isnt even recreational in most people.





Dude I don't think he seeks for recreation. think he wants his mind bach, or at least to find a meaning.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: my schizofrenic friend (who got it from doing hallucinogens) is going to smoke salvia [Re: Cutter]
    #5262155 - 02/04/06 10:48 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

your post should be stickied somewhere obvious




The joys of sarcasm :grin:

Quote:

Dude I don't think he seeks for recreation. think he wants his mind bach, or at least to find a meaning.




He probably will lose his mind further and whatever meaning he may find could well be clouded, obscured or erased by psychosis :frown:


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: my schizofrenic friend (who got it from doing hallucinogens) is going to smoke salvia [Re: Asante]
    #5262729 - 02/04/06 02:00 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

People with psychosis and especially schizophrenia should NEVER take psychedelics.




I'm going to have to disagree with that absolutism.

I agree with what you're trying to do, i.e. prevent that guy and other psychotic individuals from self-medicating with hallucinogens, but there are times when psychotic and even severely schizophrenic patients can, and maybe even SHOULD, be administered psychedelics. Under the care of a properly trained psychedelic therapist, many psychotic individuals whose condition had resisted any other form of treatment available recovered completely after a series of LSD sessions (sometimes up to 100 or more) and did not relapse [Grof 1994, Blewett & Chwelos 1959]. The use of psychedelics in their cases was vital to their recovery and allowed the return of a fully functional life which they most likely wouldn't otherwise have had.

I realize that there is a HUGE difference between being administered a psychedelic in a clinical setting and taking it at home with a friend, but your statement wasn't qualified in any way.

The only reason I'm bringing this up is that most people don't know about the vast success that psychedelic therapy had from the early 50s to the early 70s. Psychedelic therapy wasn't a fringe practice back then, it was very much a part of mainstream psychiatry. Yet today, even most psychiatrists don't admit this. The practice died not because it wasn't effective but because of tightened legislation aimed at taking psychedelics off the street. Psychedelics are not only for healthy people. The list of illnesses which can be successfully treated, or even cured, by psychedelics is LONG. In the case of some of these illnesses, psychedelic therapy of some sort is the only known treatment or cure. It's a damn shame such promising research ended almost completely over 30 years ago. If so much was achieved in the first 30 years of psychedelic research, where would we be now after 30 more?

Yeah, there are the two groups of people you described but there are also the people who value accuracy. It's not certain that he will go insane by smoking salvia, and yes it is even possible that he will experience a lessening of psychotic symptoms as a result of it. Of course the risk is very high, and I join you in advising against the self-treatment of psychosis or schizophrenia with psychedelics. Just don't say "never".

Just as a footnote---and I hesitate to say this as it's probably going to be taken the wrong way but I will anyway---if salvia is a highly effective treatment for schizophrenia like the world has never seen, there is only one way at this point in time that we will ever find out, and that's by precisely the situation described in this thread. Sucks, doesn't it?

References:
Grof, Dr. Stanislav; LSD Psychotherapy, Hunter House (1994)
Blewett, Dr. D.B. & Chwelos, Dr. N.; Handbook for the Therapeutic Use of Lysergic Acid Diethylamide-25: Individual and Group Procedures, (1959)


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Offlinedubbyah
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Re: my schizofrenic friend (who got it from doing hallucinogens) is going to smoke salvia [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #5262767 - 02/04/06 02:15 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

yeah, there was alot of successful work with LSD psychotherapy, and the reports on severely psychotic children under the age of 10 who were given controlled LSD sessions are VERY VERY interesting, and fairly successful too.. so to say to *never* give anyone with schizophrenia a psychadelic is wrong.

smoking salvia by himself isnt going to help him in the way he wants it do, though, thats why im trying to stop him..

he thinks it will heal him and cleanse his body and stop him from going to hell. he also wants to go to the amazon and do ayahuasca because he read it heals people.


also, to the person who said schizoid personality disorder and schizophrenia are the same thing, you're wrong.






I also think he has some type of nerve damage. He is EXTREMELY weak, extremely skinny, has involuntary twitches, and basically can't hold his arm up for more then 10 seconds... I told him to go to a hospital immediately, and he said he went to one before and they tapped into his brain and electrocuted him... I told him he *NEEDS* to go to a hospital, and he just said, "im going to go to the amazon to get healed".. Its an annoying situation, cause he always calls me and gets on aim and tells me how hes going to hell and tells me how he isnt normal and basically just describes typical schizophrenic symptoms, along with nerve damage/phyiscal symptoms. He's been given many different anti-psychotics, but he doesnt take them with any regularity, thus, there's no effect. He also is in a state of denial, and cant realize he has a mental disorder. He makes up psuedospiritual reasons for how he is, like the salvia was laced with arsenic, and how it stole his soul... The nerve damage and physical symptoms are of large concern, since it seems like hes dying, and only deteriorating..
He drinks lots of alcohol every day too, and basically refuses to help himself because hes in denial.


Edited by dubbyah (02/04/06 02:22 PM)


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OfflinePDU
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Re: my schizofrenic friend (who got it from doing hallucinogens) is going to smoke salvia [Re: dubbyah]
    #5262786 - 02/04/06 02:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

dubbyah said:

smoking salvia by himself isnt going to help him any, though, thats why im trying to stop him..






you dont know that, sounds like he's fairly versed in psychedelics if he knows about shamanic use of ayahuasca.

Im battling with definitions here, i wonder what this kids life is like day to day.


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Offlinedubbyah
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Re: my schizofrenic friend (who got it from doing hallucinogens) is going to smoke salvia [Re: PDU]
    #5262799 - 02/04/06 02:24 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

PDU said:
Quote:

dubbyah said:

smoking salvia by himself isnt going to help him any, though, thats why im trying to stop him..







you dont know that, sounds like he's fairly versed in psychedelics if he knows about shamanic use of ayahuasca.

Im battling with definitions here, i wonder what this kids life is like day to day.




no, hes not well versed in psychadelics at all. hes misguided and not taking medication and has delusions. believe me when i say doing ayahuasca would NOT be good for him.


Edited by dubbyah (02/04/06 02:29 PM)


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OfflinePDU
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Re: my schizofrenic friend (who got it from doing hallucinogens) is going to smoke salvia [Re: dubbyah]
    #5265425 - 02/05/06 08:03 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

alright fair enough. perhaps ive been inconsiderate in the matter.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: my schizofrenic friend (who got it from doing hallucinogens) is going to smoke salvia [Re: dubbyah]
    #5265483 - 02/05/06 08:35 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

there was alot of successful work with LSD psychotherapy, and the reports on severely psychotic children under the age of 10 who were given controlled LSD sessions are VERY VERY interesting, and fairly successful too.. so to say to *never* give anyone with schizophrenia a psychadelic is wrong.





That's a misunderstanding. It's not the psychedelic that causes benefit, but rather the intensive therapy facilitated by the psychedelic outweighs the aggrevating effects of the drug on the psychosis.

Schizophrenic psychosis is mainly problematic because people have nothing to hold onto. this is aggrevated by psychedelics.

The basic message of psychedelics is: "what you thought was solid isn't solid at all so now you got to work at it." This is the wrong thing to do to a psychotic individual. They may well lose all grasp on sanity they have.

When we return from a trip we come to our senses. When he returns from his trip he returns to delusional schizophrenia.

So we should not give psychedelics and he should not take them on his own.

Grof's book "LSD Psychotherapy" when it comes to psychosis dictates a closed ward and a team of psychiatrists.

Quote:

he thinks it will heal him and cleanse his body and stop him from going to hell.




Antipsychotic drugs will do that, and these drugs wipe psychedelics out.

OK I shouldn't say never, but if you look at the circumstances it would be best if he didnt do it in 99.9% of cases.


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