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OfflineLuNaTiX
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Pressureized plant growing
    #5077981 - 12/18/05 12:17 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

it sounds dumb but im going to try to grow plants inside lets say a tiny air tight water bottle, I figure if it can grow under pressure and flower and seed, then the next generation will be 10x faster at growing without the pressure.


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Offlinesome1whoisntme
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: LuNaTiX]
    #5078470 - 12/18/05 02:39 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

What you're talking about is natural selection. That takes many many generations to occur. Interesting idea though.


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InvisibleTODAY
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: LuNaTiX]
    #5078564 - 12/18/05 03:10 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

you can't grow plants in an airtight chamber. air exchange is a must...but i like the pressurized idea. the next generation will not grow 10x faster...like the above poster stated.


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InvisibleZippoZM
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: TODAY]
    #5079570 - 12/18/05 07:45 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

imagine the pressure difference between 6000 foot of elevation and -600ft of elevation. lots of pressure change there.....

look for studies on altidual differences on growing plants, there has to be a study there.


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"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."

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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: LuNaTiX]
    #5080157 - 12/18/05 09:54 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

You could try to use an airtight container, but you would need to exchange the gases in and out of it on occasions. Otherwise you'd wind up with a container chock full of oxygen, but the plant would run out of CO2 and die. It's important to remember that at least 90% of all mass that a plant gains is taken directly from the atmosphere.

Then again I suppose under very high pressure levels you could fit quite a bit of CO2 in there to last the plant for a while.

Intuitively what I'd assume you would want to do if you were trying to use natural selection with a pressure variable, though, would be to grow many generations of plant under very LOW pressures. They would hypothetically develop more efficient methods of extracting and using necessary gases from the atmosphere. When the resulting strain was then reintroduced to richer, higher pressure air, they would hypothetically grow faster as a result of being able to use the atmosphere so well.

But I'm certainly no botanist, this is just my guess.


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InvisibleXxshinerxX
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: Konnrade]
    #5080459 - 12/19/05 12:06 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

If I workout everyday, eat a lot of protein, and get ripped my children will all pop out of my girl able to bench 10x their own weight. Lamarck and acquired characteristics was proven wrong and foolish centuries ago.

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InvisibleBaldCuban
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: XxshinerxX]
    #5080525 - 12/19/05 12:53 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

XxshinerxX said:
If I workout everyday, eat a lot of protein, and get ripped my children will all pop out of my girl able to bench 10x their own weight. Lamarck and acquired characteristics was proven wrong and foolish centuries ago.




Thank you for adding the only shred of intelligence to this thread. I'm glad someone around here doesn't have their head firmly lodged up their lower intestine.

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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: BaldCuban]
    #5080755 - 12/19/05 04:27 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

christ. is it really genuinely hard to confine all flaming to OTD?

I mean really, there' plenty of opportunities to do it in there. But here in the other forums there's a good reason why you can't flame. Because it ruins every fucking thread that it happens in.

:stopflaming:


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: Konnrade]
    #5081231 - 12/19/05 09:25 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Konnrade said:
You could try to use an airtight container, but you would need to exchange the gases in and out of it on occasions. Otherwise you'd wind up with a container chock full of oxygen





another problem is that plants need air circulation, without it a 'layer' of
oxygen forms around the plant, it can no longer get the CO2 and again will die

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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #5081487 - 12/19/05 11:17 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

would creating a decent convection current work?


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OfflineLuNaTiX
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #5081847 - 12/19/05 01:15 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

What if I added carbon, or burnt ashes, is it possible for a plant to use this instead of CO2, that would be neat.

I see that high pressure would be hard on the plant, so I'm thinking of maybe using a large 2liter pop bottle and maybe put a baloon over the end.

I'm not going to say it will work, or that it will do anything, but its worth exploring regardless. I'd like to grow plants in a mini atmosphere of my likeing through intense evolution and survival.

We live in an age where water levels are starting to rise because of global warming, I'm looking to create a plant that can convert water into its seperate gases, it sounds far fetched, I know, but it would be neat, its not my life or anything, just a pass time.


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InvisibleJaeger
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: LuNaTiX]
    #5081937 - 12/19/05 01:34 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

It might work (if you can spare a few million years)
Sorry, as previously stated, you can not change the genetic characteristics of a plant in one generation, natural selection of beneficial mutation takes lots and lots of time.
And no adding carbon will not work, the plant takes in atmospheric CO2 and fixes it into carbon chains for sugars and for growth. You need CO2, but even then, not a pure CO2 atmosphere all the time as plants consume O2 when breaking down the stored sugars when not able to use photosynthesis.

If you can make a plant that can split water into H and O that would be super neat, I would love to grow some to power my car, but plants do not do anything near that. They have no need to break down water, they don't use the resulting gasses for any real purpose.

You can do it if you want, you won't gain anything, except being flamed. Sorry.

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OfflineLuNaTiX
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: Jaeger]
    #5081957 - 12/19/05 01:40 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I told you, I intend on doing it, I don't expect anything and therefor will not be disapointed, and oh, by the way, being flammed on here isn't the end of the world, especially by someone who is new to the board, there is life beyond shroomery.


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OfflineLuNaTiX
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: XxshinerxX]
    #5082102 - 12/19/05 02:18 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Haha, no, your not in a control environment, and it would take a few generations, too bad it takes humans years to mature, unlike plants.


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OfflineLuNaTiX
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: Konnrade]
    #5082105 - 12/19/05 02:19 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I like your guess, im guessing about the same as you.

I also intend to be using salt, I think salt has unknown effects on plants that im interested in exploring. I read somewhere that salt causes a plant to take in oxygen rather then CO2, if thats the case I'd use Peroxide or something instead of water, (H2O2) which turns into water and extra oxygen with time.

I'm going to use alfalfa because there cheap and grow fast, maybe something will happen, maybe nothing will happen, it gives me something to do anyway.


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: LuNaTiX]
    #5082505 - 12/19/05 03:54 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I'd be careful with exposing a plant to salt and H2O2. Both of them have a tendency to make things die.

Salt isnt too good for plants. If it DID make them absorb water it would be due to osmosis. A high concentration of salt inside plant cells, for instance, would cause water to be drawn into them from areas with lower concentrations, in attempt to balance the system. Too much water intake would just rupture the central vacuoule of the cells, though.

peroxide is just toxic. It's a reactive oxygen species. Youd wind up with lots of highly reactive radicals that would break down plant cells by reacting with crucial parts of them such as the DNA. I doubt it would do any more good than it did harm.

If you wanted to really see what happens with this sort of thing, though. I'd devote some time to it and see what happens after 50 or 60 generations. Perhaps some noticeable changes would have occurred. If you did a little work with selective breeding you could perhaps acheive some sort of success with this. It would pay off to do a little research into mendelian genetics though.


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OfflineLuNaTiX
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: Konnrade]
    #5082566 - 12/19/05 04:12 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for the positive input, I appreciate it.


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OfflineVertigo6911
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: LuNaTiX]
    #5083957 - 12/19/05 10:12 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

umm, im pretty sure that plants do create Co2
by night...

also how would you compare this to tissue culture? surely those plants arent dying from oxigen poisening?


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Offlinethe man
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: Vertigo6911]
    #5083975 - 12/19/05 10:22 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

actually vertigo plants do do the "dark cylce" even in the day, its a common misconseption.

snd salt will kill plants, it can only be to isotonic to teh plant and this would cause absorbtion issues.

plants that live in salt rich areas are called have halophytes and have special adaptations by which they exrete the excese salt. actually they are modified trichomes that aree called salt glands if i am not mistaken.


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InvisibleJaeger
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: the man]
    #5084385 - 12/20/05 12:28 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

yea, I understand the processes.
Plants do produce mainly O2 when fixing the CO2, but they fix the C into sugars then they consume them just as we do. Resulting in output of O2. This happens when the photosynthetic process of carbon fixing is not putting out enough ATP (far less for fixing than the dark cycles) regardless of time of day.
I don't remember specifics too much anymore, just the occasional name like Krebs's cycle. I need to research it again, neat stuff.

Yea, salt and H2O2. Salt would severely screw with your osmotic potential of the plants if present in too much more than natural amounts.

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InvisibleXxshinerxX
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: Jaeger]
    #5084593 - 12/20/05 01:41 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

The Krebs cycle is a part of cell respiration responsible for creating carbon dioxide, electron carriers (NADH and FADH2), and a little ATP. The Calvin cycle is the light independant part of photosynthesis responsible for creating glucose and releasing oxygen. The plant uses the glucose it makes not only for cell respiration but it also creates cellulose, starches, and every other substance the plant makes. The relationship between photosynthesis and cell respiration is one of the most complex biochemical pathways there is.

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Offlinethe man
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: XxshinerxX]
    #5084650 - 12/20/05 02:26 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

i think we are all familiar. whats yoru point? or just explaining it? knowledge is good

peace


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OfflineVertigo6911
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: LuNaTiX]
    #5084781 - 12/20/05 04:45 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

actually vertigo plants do do the "dark cylce" even in the day, its a common misconseption.




dark cycle by day? whats that mean exactly?


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InvisibleTaharka
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: Vertigo6911]
    #5084971 - 12/20/05 06:55 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

The "dark" cycle depends on the products of the light reaction, which can only occur in the light, as well as C02, which is taken in through the stomata when the plant opens them. The reaction can take place as long as these resources are there, so it is really light-independent; it does not require darkness.

And Jaeger, plants do break down the H20 for a reason: they use the resulting electrons for energy, and the hydrogen atoms to make NADPH. The only part they don't use is the Oxygen.

I hope I am not too "new to the board" to explain anything...

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OfflineVertigo6911
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: LuNaTiX]
    #5085009 - 12/20/05 07:30 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

only when your wrong dude lol.

so it takes in co2, uses it and a byproduct of the process is co2?


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Offlinethe man
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: Vertigo6911]
    #5085365 - 12/20/05 09:59 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Vertigo6911 said:
Quote:

actually vertigo plants do do the "dark cylce" even in the day, its a common misconseption.




dark cycle by day? whats that mean exactly?




i just thought you where refering to teh dark cycle in you post. i just woke up. and i was just going to bed then. sorry if you werent reffering to that. just because you said "by night".

happy holidays


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InvisibleTaharka
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: the man]
    #5086102 - 12/20/05 02:27 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Although plants make sugars during photosynthesis using carbon fixed from C02, and energy from light and from water, and release oxygen in the process, the exact opposite happens when plants respirate. Just like us, plants must break down the glucose they create in order to derive energy from it (respiration). To do so, they must take in oxygen and release C02.
So yes, plants take in co2, use it, and a byproduct is c02. It's just that C02 is taken in, and then released, in two different processes. Also, because the oxygen released comes from the water that is broken down, and not the C02, there is still a net increase in oxygen and decrease in C02 in the environment, which is a very good thing (for us.)

Although growing plants in a pressurized environment is a great idea, I doubt it will do much to improve the growth of that plant at other elevations. Otherwise, plants that are indigenous to valleys would germinate and grow faster on mountaintops. Maybe you're thinking of how a low-gravity environment would offer less resistance to movement, but then again plants do not have muscles and I don't think they'd be affected in this way. I'd be interested to try it, though: a pressurized environment does not mean no airflow. You could pressurize the incoming air with a compressor, and release outgoing air at a controlled rate.

Edited by Taharka (12/20/05 02:42 PM)

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: LuNaTiX]
    #5086479 - 12/20/05 04:17 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

LuNaTiX said:
What if I added carbon, or burnt ashes, is it possible for a plant to use this instead of CO2, that would be neat.






adding ashes from burnt wood will give it plenty of potassium, thats about it though

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Offlineneuro
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Re: Pressureized plant growing [Re: Taharka]
    #5090998 - 12/21/05 06:22 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Taharka said:
Although plants make sugars during photosynthesis using carbon fixed from C02, and energy from light and from water, and release oxygen in the process, the exact opposite happens when plants respirate. Just like us, plants must break down the glucose they create in order to derive energy from it (respiration). To do so, they must take in oxygen and release C02.
So yes, plants take in co2, use it, and a byproduct is c02. It's just that C02 is taken in, and then released, in two different processes. Also, because the oxygen released comes from the water that is broken down, and not the C02, there is still a net increase in oxygen and decrease in C02 in the environment, which is a very good thing (for us.)

Although growing plants in a pressurized environment is a great idea, I doubt it will do much to improve the growth of that plant at other elevations. Otherwise, plants that are indigenous to valleys would germinate and grow faster on mountaintops. Maybe you're thinking of how a low-gravity environment would offer less resistance to movement, but then again plants do not have muscles and I don't think they'd be affected in this way. I'd be interested to try it, though: a pressurized environment does not mean no airflow. You could pressurize the incoming air with a compressor, and release outgoing air at a controlled rate.





Thank you.


Note on gravity environments, plants don't have muscles but they have large starchy plastids that help plants know which way is 'up' even without phototopic information.

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