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OfflineLifeIsSweet
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The Illusion of Time....what does it mean?
    #5062407 - 12/14/05 01:00 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I am taking Prof. Fillipenko's Astronomy class here at school (if you are into Astronomy and specifically cosmology you might know of him), and lately I have began thinking about the accelerating universe and how it affects time. Correct me if I am wrong, but an accelerating universe means that time is also accelerating, right? If time is accelerating, and the universe is flat (at least in the local/visible region) could we not say that at some lookback time, the universe today is the same age as it was a certain point in the past? That the beginning and the end of the universe are actually one and the same? That our path through time is a grand illusion (Einstein), and that the Universe is something more like a hologram?

What is your understanding of the famous quote "time is an illusion?" This has been prying on my mind since the beginning of the semester and probably will continue to do so after the Final exam tomorrow.

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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: The Illusion of Time....what does it mean? [Re: LifeIsSweet]
    #5063373 - 12/14/05 04:57 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

There is no time because time is a useless concept invented to say that all things are in motion. We dont understand motion, so we invent time to quanitize motion. Life is rythm.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: The Illusion of Time....what does it mean? [Re: psyka]
    #5063551 - 12/14/05 05:45 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Actually time is an actual thing.

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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: The Illusion of Time....what does it mean? [Re: TheCow]
    #5063707 - 12/14/05 06:17 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

And I suppose you think atoms are "real" "things," too, eh?

Well nothing is science is really real. Its word mathematics. Logic and reasoning to represent what is real, not actually what is real.

An inch is not real, but a quanitization of what is real.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


Edited by psyka (12/14/05 06:18 PM)

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OfflineTheCow
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Re: The Illusion of Time....what does it mean? [Re: psyka]
    #5063767 - 12/14/05 06:29 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Strong words coming from someone who is using the fruits of scientists labors. Sure you can claim, all of existence isnt real, whatever, have fun with that.

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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: The Illusion of Time....what does it mean? [Re: TheCow]
    #5063861 - 12/14/05 06:43 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Well you said time is real. I say it is not. This is not the first time radical ideas were proposed and adopted to science.

The more I ponder time, the more I understand it cant be real. We invented it to explain the summation and perception of all the total motion surrounding us. Think about it.

Time distortions are real, just maybe not exact to our mathematical simulations. If the summation of the atoms in galaxy A are measured to be slower than the summation of the atoms in galaxy B, is there not a time difference in similiar events happening in each galaxy?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: The Illusion of Time....what does it mean? [Re: psyka]
    #5063892 - 12/14/05 06:46 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

psyka said:
If the summation of the atoms in galaxy A are measured to be slower than the summation of the atoms in galaxy B, is there not a time difference in similiar events happening in each galaxy?



Explain that.

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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: The Illusion of Time....what does it mean? [Re: TheCow]
    #5063919 - 12/14/05 06:50 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Ok if all the atoms in galaxy A were all slower than galaxy B,

Say humans in galaxy A/B did a simple HCl + Ca expirement. Since the atoms in galaxy A are all moving slower than B, YOU being the axis of observation would notice a time difference between the reactions between A and B.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: The Illusion of Time....what does it mean? [Re: psyka]
    #5063964 - 12/14/05 06:58 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Alright but I dont know what you mean by the atoms moving slower.

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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: The Illusion of Time....what does it mean? [Re: TheCow]
    #5063995 - 12/14/05 07:02 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Well atoms move around... thats what they do. They travel at different speeds. I'm saying the concept of time is a result of this.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: The Illusion of Time....what does it mean? [Re: psyka]
    #5064112 - 12/14/05 07:25 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Wait so you are saying that because some atoms move at different speeds, chemical reactions take place at different speeds in the universe?

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OfflineDocPsilocybin
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Re: The Illusion of Time....what does it mean? [Re: TheCow]
    #5145880 - 01/06/06 03:30 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

To say time is a measurment of motion is wrong. If we reverse the motion does time also reverse? No. Time is barely understood and complex. According to Einstein it's relative to the observer, but yet we know very little of what time actually is. Some say it's the fourth dimension in the theory of special relativity, some also say that on a very small scale time and spare are indistinguishable. But really time confuses scientists still.

No we can argue philsophies until the world freezes over. But admit it or not time in some sense does manifest itself in our lives. Life carries on and a certain instant passes us every second that can never be recaptured. Time is elusive though, we can not directly sense it, instead we sense time as a progression of phyiscal changes. Sleeping, movement, etc.

Anyway, I'm going to cut it short before I start rambling into quantum mechanics and more areas that I'm not sure of. Let it suffice to say that time is an ellusive subject. We experience it every day yet no one can put to words what it really is.


--------------------
You can't hold a man down without staying down with him.
-- Booker T. Washington

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OfflineCubenisseur
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Re: The Illusion of Time....what does it mean? [Re: DocPsilocybin]
    #5145971 - 01/06/06 06:42 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

The universe goes through formation, stasis, degeneration, and destruction. In any of the different time spaces(dimensions) there is a field which we call time. All matter within that time/space has to fall under the control of that time...that time is what allows the factor of degeneration, destruction, and birth. These things are evolved and controlled by the time in any particular dimension. Time cannot restrict things outside of it's field and thus there are actually many, many different time fields contolling the infinite dimensions.
"Time" is accelerating and that is because the universe is expanding....it's commonly known that long ago in the space of the universe there occurred a big "bang"...an explosion in other words, but when things reach an extreme, they turn around. If the universe is expanding, what happens when it reaches it's limit??
Like a balloon......POP

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: The Illusion of Time....what does it mean? [Re: Cubenisseur]
    #5146096 - 01/06/06 08:56 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

What is a time field?

What evidence do you have that time is accelerating?

How can time "control the matter in its field" (to paraphrase), yet be accelerated by an expanding universe?

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OfflineCubenisseur
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Re: The Illusion of Time....what does it mean? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #5146200 - 01/06/06 09:49 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Each layer of particles exists in a different time "field". Meaning that even when the largest particles of our dimension -molecules- degenerate(times effect on matter here= degeneration/disintegration) The particles at the level of atoms have not been destroyed, but we cannot observe them with our eyes because they exist in the microscopic dimensions. In order to destroy atomic nuclei, there needs to be a lot of mass and high speed collision. Splitting an atom is a nuclear reaction. To destroy the atomic nuclei inside of a persons body requires much more than the heat in a cremation furnace, and thus the atoms have not been destroyed otherwise the person would be a nuclear explosion. Thus those atoms aren't effected by the time of our field. It is known that human bodies, plants, and animals all have a different life span. As well, our Earth and Milky Way galaxy also have to follow laws and are not outside of degeneration and destruction, it's just that at that level of particles and matter, things take a much greater time to degrade.
Lets use the example of the body. The human body is comprised of numerous particles. Molecules, atoms, quarks neutrino's etc. Smaller particles comprise larger particles. When we move our arm through "air" the mass of particles moves in this space(the one we can see) and exists as a "solid" object seemingly moving through "space". But at a microscopic level the atoms, neutrons, electrons, quarks etc. are all existing, but they also have their own independent ways of existing in their particular dimension.
It is known that when using the 3rd eye/celestial eye/tianmu etc. one sees things directly instead of using the "flesh eyes" to view. It is very obvious that our eyes precisely do NOT see the true picture of things and have the capability to stabilize ejects to the point at which they appear to be solid...in fact nothing is solid and the body is made of loose particles that are always squirming and moving. When using the Tianmu to see directly, you are able to penetrate beyond this physical dimension and see objects or beings that exist in those other dimensions(fields).

I can't really tell you how I know that time is accelerating because it would involve a LOT of background info that I do not have time to write out for you.

Last but not least, for the human mind to comprehend something it has to be in the scope of his ability to enlighten. A person or great enlightened being will not believe in the things above his level, while the things that are at or below his level are seen very clearly.

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OfflineCubenisseur
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Re: The Illusion of Time....what does it mean? [Re: Cubenisseur]
    #5146207 - 01/06/06 09:53 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

heres a related topic found just a moment ago in another forum...

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5145679/an/0/page/0/gonew/1#UNREAD

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Offlinestrangladesh
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Re: The Illusion of Time....what does it mean? [Re: Cubenisseur]
    #5146417 - 01/06/06 11:17 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

time is a figure of you imagination like santa, the easter bunny or eskimos

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: The Illusion of Time....what does it mean? [Re: Cubenisseur]
    #5146713 - 01/06/06 12:31 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I still don't get what you mean by "layer of particles" or time field.  In what way are molecules the largest "particles" in our dimension?  Define particles.

To destroy the atomic nuclei inside a person's body doesn't require great amounts of energy or collisions---some of the atoms in the bodies of every human are undergoing nuclear decay all the time.  This happens at body temperature and at rest.  Yet, these nuclei are "part of our time field", are they not?

Quote:

I can't really tell you how I know that time is accelerating because it would involve a LOT of background info that I do not have time to write out for you.




What a copout.  :frown:

Quote:

Last but not least, for the human mind to comprehend something it has to be in the scope of his ability to enlighten. A person or great enlightened being will not believe in the things above his level, while the things that are at or below his level are seen very clearly.




Are you trying to say that I don't understand you because you're smarter than me?

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OfflineCubenisseur
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Re: The Illusion of Time....what does it mean? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #5146987 - 01/06/06 01:23 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

As far as the time expanse thing.  BANG  :psychsplit:
Explosions are necessary to destroy and recreate matter. Ever look at pictures of stars/nebula forming? I said that everything is expanding, right? Doesn't this agree with the "Big Bang" theory? It's impossible that only one time space was created, and in the world of high energy physics it's very commonly discussed that there are different dimensional time spaces.



Time spaces-
If you look at a spiral(just like our Galaxy's) you''ll see that if you stand on the outer edge time is very different than standing in the center in terms of [ul]time[/ul]. For instance, Pluto takes a LOT longer to revolve around the sun and go through it's "seasons" than does Mars. Mars has many seasons before Pluto even "gets out of bed". :smile:
Put that example into either a larger picture or smaller picture of cosmic expanses(cell systems/giant cosmic body systems) and what I am trying to say should be pretty clear. Ever dream? Whats happening while you dream? Why does it sometimes seem like you have been dreaming and experiencing things for days on end but only a few minutes or hours has passed? Do you think that that has anything to do with the concepts we are speaking about?



Each layer of particles; planets, molecules, atoms, electrons, quarks, etc. are seemingly separated by a "space". Example: We live in between the planets and stars, those large scale substances and molecules. That is the human body, water, air, plants and animals. In between us, and other planets and stars, there seems to be a vast expanse. Commonly referred to as [ul]space[/ul]. The same holds true between molecules and atoms. There is a "space" between each layer of particles.
Each plane of particles is, another dimension. In other words, a different time/space.
The picture of protons and electrons orbiting a nucleus is exactly the same of our planets revolving around the sun. The solar system that we inhabit is nothing more than a tiny, tiny particle in this vast colossal firmament. The things we discuss are extremely relative.



I am not preaching or teaching, but merely expressing my opinions on this subject. I honestly would love to sit and discuss it in length, but honestly my time doesn't permit me to type it all out. If I could type as fast as I can think it would be another story.

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: The Illusion of Time....what does it mean? [Re: Cubenisseur]
    #5147136 - 01/06/06 01:58 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Cubenisseur said:
Explosions are necessary to destroy and recreate matter.





Bullshit.

Quote:


in the world of high energy physics it's very commonly discussed that there are different dimensional time spaces.





The term "time space" is rarely, if ever, used by serious physicists.

Quote:



Time spaces
If you look at a spiral(just like our Galaxy's) you''ll see that if you stand on the outer edge time is very different than standing in the center in terms of [ul]time[/ul].





I disagree. On that basis, people living near the poles experience time differently than people near the equator simply because they spin slower.

Quote:


Each plane of particles is, another dimension.





No it's not. Unless you redefine "dimension" to be something completely different from the way it's currently used in scientific literature.

Quote:


The picture of protons and electrons orbiting a nucleus is exactly the same of our planets revolving around the sun.





Protons don't orbit around nuclei. In fact, neither do electrons. That's a 19th century view of the situation.

Quote:


The solar system that we inhabit is nothing more than a tiny, tiny particle in this vast colossal firmament.





That, I agree with.

Quote:


The things we discuss are extremely relative.





Then why are you speaking as if what you're saying is a universal truth?

Quote:


If I could type as fast as I can think it would be another story.




Learn to type?

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