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OfflineJammer
Computers areMORE Addictive!

Registered: 11/04/00
Posts: 3,998
Loc: (God's Country) - USA
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: ]
    #496066 - 12/19/01 03:27 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

smoke2k said: "Is it possible for mycelium to not produce psilocin until it makes pinners then it generates it in larger quantities?"

Jammer's responce: It's the popular conensius that NO it's not possible. This opinion can be traced back to the oldest cultivation books. There are some people that only cultivate/eat mycelium... such as the PDA tek. Now, I supose that it's POSSIBLE that the chemical structure of the drugs is just diferent enough in the form of mycelium to advoid dectection. Perhaps, just maybe.... the drugs in the fungus changes, or changes into what is detected as drugs with maturity (we can only hope!).... but based on the numerious other drug tests performed on mycelium it does not seem very likely.


--------------------
>>Jammer>>

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InvisibleLuciferX
ape

Registered: 11/18/98
Posts: 731
Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Jammer]
    #496376 - 12/19/01 08:46 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

So I guess all those kids that take spent or fresh cakes and soak them in cranberry juice arent really tripping.


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Once in awhile you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right

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OfflineJammer
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: LuciferX]
    #496386 - 12/19/01 08:51 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

No, I agree that you can trip off of mycelium. My point is that perhaps under "the scope" that the molecule is just diferent enough not to be "flaged" exactly the same as the one's found in the fruits.... yet obviolsy still gets you high.

I suggest this as a posibility only.


--------------------
>>Jammer>>

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InvisibleRyche HawkV
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Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 2,112
Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: azurescen]
    #496986 - 12/20/01 01:27 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Azurescen you obviously dont know as much about Stamets as you think you do. Stamets does discuss psilocybes with ppl at some mushroom conferences such as the Telluride conference and the one in Canada last spring.
What do you think the Telluride conference is all about? Its not just mushroom foreys, psilocybes are discussed in depth there. Stamets is very open with people on this subject at some conferences. There is nothing illegal about discussing them. He just stays away from that subject around his business which you cant blame him.


--------------------
-Peace-

High Quality MUSHROOM SPORES and CULTURES  for microscopy at www.muShrooms.com



muShrooms.com is the new web site of
www.thehawkseye.com

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InvisibleRyche HawkV
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Posts: 2,112
Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Jammer]
    #497010 - 12/20/01 02:05 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Mycelium is very smart. Even smart enough to fool the FEDs sometimes :smile:

Dimitri, you said you read this report for free a year ago?
Where did you find it? Anybody know? Or I can just pay the $25 to d/l it from this site listed.


--------------------
-Peace-

High Quality MUSHROOM SPORES and CULTURES  for microscopy at www.muShrooms.com



muShrooms.com is the new web site of
www.thehawkseye.com

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OfflineJammer
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Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #497831 - 12/21/01 12:42 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)



I'm not so sure that anyone, or anything really fooled the FBI here. I think that most people believe that they were not trying to find any drugs in the mycelium.

As far as purchasing the report, I do believe that the PF moderator purchased it for $25.00 as well.... He did make a mention of where he got it from in the past on his site.

PeAcE


--------------------
>>Jammer>>

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Offlineelphinstone
Elf
Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 20
Loc: Sunshine Coast, B.C.
Last seen: 20 years, 11 months
Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Jammer]
    #499526 - 12/23/01 06:10 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)


Does anyone know why the FBI used chloroform-methanol 9:1 as their solvent of choice?

Almost all TLC work with these compounds used butanol-acetic acid-water or
propanol-ammonia-water which moves the psilocybin spot off the origin line.

see:
http://www.sporelab.com/chromo/tlc_0.jpg

A spot stuck at the origin (Rf .00) is non-diagnostic for any specific compound,
as after enzymatic conversion unknown spots appear at Rf .00 .
Normally, compounds of interest are usually kept between Rf .20 and Rf .60 for
greatest diagnostic utility -- contaminants usually interfere with anything above Rf .80 .

see:
http://www.sporelab.com/chromo/tlc_3031.jpg

"... note, on plate # 30, that in the left lane, psilocybin seems to have been
enzymatically converted to psilocin and an unknown compound appeared at Rf .00
as a result of boiling the ethanolic (40% vodka) mixture. On plate # 31 we see that
by taking the remnants of a methanolic extract and extracting these with cold water,
psilocybin seems to convert to psilocin again, and four new spots appear..."

see:
http://www.sporelab.com/chromo/tlc_3.htm

(P.S. this is the first time I see the term Rr not Rf being used -- searched the net and nada.)


Elph

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

re:
FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVESTIGATION

THIN-LAYER CHROMATOGRAPHY
TLC was carried out on 5 X 10 cm silica gel plates (Analtech Newar, DE). Psilocyn
(Alltech State College, PA) and psilocybin (Alltech State College, PA) standards
were spotted on each plate along with the sample extracts. The plates were developed
to 6 cm at room temperature in a covered development tank with a 9: I
chloroform/methanol solution. A beaker containing 3 mL of ammonium hydroxide was placed
in the tank to assist in development. The plate was dried with low heat
and visualized with a paradimethylarninobenzaldehyde (p-DMAB) spray reagent.
(The p- DMAB reagent consisted of 2 9 of p-DMAB in 50 mL of ethanol and 50 mL
of hydrochloric acid.) The relative Rr value of psilocybin is 0.00 and the relative
Rr value of psilocyn is 0.85...

The lower limit of detection was determined by serial dilutions of the psilocyn standard
and spotting/developing it until the spot associated with the standard was not
seen. The lower limit of detection for the TLC method was determined to be approximately
0.03 mg/mL...

Samples were analyzed after the first sign of growth of mycelium knots. A total of 22
mycelium knot samples were analyzed by TLC. Samples were considered to be
consistent with a standard if their relative Rr value and their color matched the standard
also spotted on the plate. Samples were considered to indicate a standard
if their relative Rr value matched the standard but the color was not as dark as the standard
spotted...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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OfflineJammer
Computers areMORE Addictive!

Registered: 11/04/00
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: elphinstone]
    #501742 - 12/26/01 06:25 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I think that your a little above the heads of most of us here. Can anyone answer his question?

In the mean time, here is an interesting pic that will hopefully make loading this thread worthwhile:




Ooooopsie!!!!!

haha!



--------------------
>>Jammer>>

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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: elphinstone]
    #501937 - 12/26/01 10:35 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Are you saying the 9:1 ratio versus the 8:2 ratio for chloroform-methanol was unable to free the goodies to move up the gel?
Or is this solvent just an all around bad choice for the goodies? Polarity problems?
Clue us in, most of us left organic chemistry back at school!!!!

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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: ]
    #501957 - 12/26/01 10:58 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I am also curious where PF got the Pleurocystidia size from in this write - up!!!! They only mention spore size, and it is more consitent with cubensis, then cyanescens. They are to big to be cyanescens. They mention no, other characteristics, other then spore size!!!

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Offlineelphinstone
Elf
Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 20
Loc: Sunshine Coast, B.C.
Last seen: 20 years, 11 months
Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: ]
    #502632 - 12/27/01 05:48 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I am not sure what an 8:2 (= 4:1) chloroform-methanol ratio would do,
as very polar solvents like methanol contribute disproportionately to
overall solvent activity at very low concentrations.

According to the published FBI results (at 9:1) the Rf of psilocin was
.85 (which means it moved up the plate relatively quickly) and the Rf of
psilocybin was .00 (which means it was stuck at the origin line and did
not move at all).

I mentioned that a spot stuck at the origin (Rf .00) was non-diagnostic
for any specific compound, as after enzymatic conversion, unknown spots
appear at Rf .00, so a colour reaction there does not imply psilocybin --
especially with p-DMAB which reacts with many indoles in a similar way.

See the variety of unknown colours that Beug obtained in lane #4 of:
http://www.sporelab.com/chromo/tlc_0.jpg

Also, notice on the same image that most workers used acetic acid or ammonia
in their solvents, and that psilocybin always moved from the origin.

For best results, these two solvents would be used in two dimensions
(ammoniacal first), see the brown psilocybin spot on the left on plate # 59.

The only disadvantage of a water-containing solvent is the long development time.


According to: Analytical and Toxological Data -- pp. 526,

Psilocin is soluble in ethanol and dilute acetic acid.
Extracted by organic solvents from aqueous ammoniacal solutions.

Psilocybin is soluble in dilute acetic acid.
Extracted by methanol from dry material.

According to: Shulgin, Journal of Psychedelic Drugs -- V.12 Jan 1980 pp. 79,

Psilocin forms white crystals from methanol and is quite insoluble in water,
but dissolves in most organic solvents.

Psilocybin is soluble in dilute acids, poorly soluble in water and methanol,
and practically insoluble in other organic solvents.


Experiment, discover, enjoy.

Elph


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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: elphinstone]
    #502686 - 12/27/01 07:19 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

You're making my head hurt!

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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: elphinstone]
    #502802 - 12/27/01 09:50 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

80:20 = 8:2 chloroform:methanol
I was under the impression that using these together at different ratios, as the efluent in the TLC, can drastically effect the outcome.
Effect in the sense that it can prevent movement, or speed up the movement. Different concentrations, different results.

Are you stating there was never any Psilocybin in the samples due to the extraction solvents used, or the solvents used as the efluent in the T.L.C. effected the outcome?
Sorry for the questions!!! Just trying to get a partial understanding. We know it was a bogus outcome, I am trying to understand why!!!

Edited by Teonan (12/27/01 09:58 PM)

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OfflineJammer
Computers areMORE Addictive!

Registered: 11/04/00
Posts: 3,998
Loc: (God's Country) - USA
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: ]
    #503322 - 12/28/01 01:27 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

You guys disqust me!

Damm I always knew that the day would come where I would regret never enrolling in that Wood Shop class back in high school. :)


Either you guys are totaly straight, or your totaly triped out.

haha

(seriously, I never could pass basic chemistry in H.S. so I am a little envious)


--------------------
>>Jammer>>

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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Jammer]
    #503462 - 12/28/01 05:23 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Makes your head hurt too, eh!

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Offlineelphinstone
Elf
Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 20
Loc: Sunshine Coast, B.C.
Last seen: 20 years, 11 months
Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: ]
    #503672 - 12/28/01 10:07 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, using these together at different ratios, as the eluent in the TLC, can affect the outcome.

The solutes (psilocybin and psilocin) interact with a polar solvent monolayer (methanol portion
of the mobile phase in this case) hydrogen-bonded to the adsorbent (silica gel) and not directly
with the gel. (paraphrased from: TLC Techniques and Applications -- Fried & Sherma 1982 -- pp.9)

Therefore, "ALL solutes should be moderately soluble in the mobile phase." (Fried pp.78)

Psilocybin is poorly soluble in water and methanol, and practically insoluble in other organic
solvents. (Shulgin, Journal of Psychedelic Drugs -- V.12 Jan 1980 pp. 79)

Solvent strength (elution -- eo) (on alumina and silica) (Fried pp.80):

n-Pentane 0.00
Benzene 0.32
Chloroform 0.40 CHCl3
Methylene Chloride 0.42
i- or n-Propanol 0.82
Ethanol 0.88
Methanol 0.95 MeOH

90:10 = 10% MeOH (original FBI)
80:20 = 20% MeOH

Solvent strengths of methanol in benzene on alumina: (Fried Table 6.3 on pp.82)

at 4% methanol eo is 0.75 (quite polar at a low concentration)
at 8% 0.80
at 18% 0.85
at 44% 0.90
at 100% 0.95 (maximum)

For chloroform and silica gel the order will be the same but eo will be different.

Solvent strengths of methanol in methylene chloride on silica gel: (Fried Figure 6.1 on pp.83)
(numbers estimated from graph)

at 4% 0.52 (somewhat polar at low concentrations)
8% 0.57
10% 0.58
18% 0.63
20% 0.64
44% 0.68
100% 0.73 (maximum -- Touchstone and Dobbins 1978)


So, going from 10% to 20% (or 8% to 18% in Table 6.3) changes eo by 0.05 -- not drastic.
Again, going from 10% to 20% in Figure 6.1 changes eo by 0.06 -- not drastic.

This would probably make the Rf of psilocin higher than 0.85 and just might budge psilocybin from 0.00.

The solvent that moves the zones near the center of the plate has the correct strength. (Fried pp.80)
(Rf 0.85 and Rf 0.00 are not near the center)

Conclusion:
n-butanol-acetic acid-water 12:3:5, as used by most others, would have been a much better
choice to move the compounds nearer the centre -- otherwise, why bother with the TLC?

From FBI Doc:
"... Samples were allowed to soak in methanol overnight.
The methanol was decanted into a shell vial which was then condensed to near dryness.
The extracts were cleaned up with an acid solution for GC/MS analysis..."

It appears that wet, not dry, samples were used for the extraction.

Looking at the B.C. study, it appears that any time water is present in the extraction,
spots at Rf .00 appear and psilocybin disappears, see the left lanes in:

http://www.sporelab.com/chromo/tlc_3031.jpg,
http://www.sporelab.com/chromo/tlc_3234.jpg,
http://www.sporelab.com/chromo/tlc_37.jpg.

See notes in: http://www.sporelab.com/chromo/tlc_3.htm.

If the TLC solvent is unable to budge any psilocybin present from the origin, these spots at
the origin will mask its presence.

There would have been psilocybin and psilocin present in a methanolic extract of dry matter,
as shown in the right lanes of the plates above.

(For quantitative determinations, multiple methanolic extractions would have been performed
due to psilocybin's poor solubility in methanol).

Conclusion:
Material should have been dried before extraction.


Elph


Does anyone have any links to results published on the net of practical PAPER CHROMATOGRAPHY
of our little friends?

eg. Using water or vinegar or lemon juice as both extractants and solvents and paper-towel
sheets (or rolls if purifying large volumes) as adsorbents?
Using Kodak's Elon (metol) developer (1% in alcohol?) as indicator?
(Warning: inhalation hazard and blood disorders from continued exposure)


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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: elphinstone]
    #503802 - 12/29/01 12:48 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks!!!
Makes you really wonder what the fuck they were doing!!!
Why go to the trouble to make a bogus study? Besides getting paid by the Feds. Maybe these guys got a culture business going on the side. LOL Anyways, why would the FBI be interested, wouldn't this fall under DEA research?

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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: elphinstone]
    #504055 - 12/29/01 11:55 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Conclusion:
Material should have been dried before extraction.


Thats what I thought!

Seriously, elphinstone is one of my very top elves.....he used to work for Santa!

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OfflinePeyotl
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Registered: 12/05/01
Posts: 238
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: ]
    #505465 - 12/30/01 11:26 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

it woud fall under the fbi bacause of the national state of the operation. if you sell elephant ivory that you labal as being poached after 1982 on say ebay, that means your selling it over state lines. then is when it becomes federal.

i doubt that the govt would not look for anything like this. the spore trade is a national thing with many players. if they couldve gotten something that would stand up in court they would have ran with it. major big dick points for unearthing something like this. i can assure you this isnt a thing of de facto legality. i also believe they have enough of a case to go ahead with it, but if they did and a jury sad that since the spores dont contain psilo they are legal that would create a crack that isnt to there liking.

i think the bait and switch about getting ppl to sell myco cultures because of this holds water. see the above reason for not taking this one to court and add in that they are prolly picking their battles and you see where im going. one things for sure: they knwo that for a few at least spore peddlng is a viable source of ncome worth layin down a couple grand to advertise in High Tines for. that leads to thousands of orders a month every month. it ould be smart to do something like this lay back and just copy the addys of ppl sending mail to pf or hwk. or see how many they get. this would give them a figure of how many ppl are willing to realy push he envelope on legality.

according to erowid, psilo breaks down at 178F.

if i were a spore peddler thers onl one thing id worry about: the IRS. the govt painted themselves in a corner about the mushrom not being ilegal just the substance. now they cant goto court without loooking like a bunch of pricks, so they might sic the IRS on top vendors. i cant imagine PF turning in a tax form sayin he works at PF sending mushroom spore syringes nationwide. maybe im wrong.

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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Peyotl]
    #505830 - 12/31/01 12:09 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Yes spores are legal, Vendors with licenses pay taxes.
Cultures would be illegal, if you got caught with enough Mycelium to register a positive. And yes I think, if you were stupid enough to believe this article, and started selling cultures. You would be running a Legitimate risk.

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