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Invisiblepsyka
Praetorian
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Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
Re: So What's the Underlying Dymamic? [Re: Vvellum]
    #5063960 - 12/14/05 06:57 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I'm sure he rejected a few things.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: So What's the Underlying Dymamic? [Re: psyka]
    #5064156 - 12/14/05 07:34 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)



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Invisiblemoog
Stranger

Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 1,296
Re: So What's the Underlying Dymamic? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5073905 - 12/17/05 12:15 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

This was a great post. Personally i've come to realize that it's less a matter of needing physical proof and more a matter of who or what you believe. Millions of people, for example, trust media sources to tell them about current events. A large majority of people believe what CNN tells them without doing any fact-digging themselves. They are placing faith in an authority to tell them the truth about what's going on.

And this is the same with the "scientific-minded" people here. They don't have a need for proof so much as the need for a specific authority to tell them that it's right. If they were really interested in the scientific process as they claim, they would do their best to prove something themselves rather to just have faith and believe others' findings. And it's the same with the non-"scientific-minded." After all, the only real proof is first-hand experience. ANYTHING else is a belief passed on by someone you trust. That's all a "source" is, it's a source of information that you trust as an authority in giving factual information. Who's to say that what CNN reports is the truth? You couldn't possibly ever know unless you witnessed an event first-hand.

How about this example: is our Earth really rotating about the sun, or is it the other way around? You can't possibly know this for sure unless you've observed the movement of stars yourself, and calculated first-hand whether or not this is true. Otherwise, you are relying on and trusting others' theories and measurements, and that's BELIEF without proof, the same thing many here are "accused" of.

I can't stress this enough. The only real proof is first-hand experience. Anything else is a belief.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: So What's the Underlying Dymamic? [Re: moog]
    #5075313 - 12/17/05 01:13 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Personally i've come to realize that it's less a matter of needing physical proof and more a matter of who or what you believe. Millions of people, for example, trust media sources to tell them about current events. A large majority of people believe what CNN tells them without doing any fact-digging themselves. They are placing faith in an authority to tell them the truth about what's going on.





Well, I can only speak for myself, but I read three different news papers a day (we have alot of them at work) plus I do check the news online and sometimes on TV (very rarely, actualy - not alot of television in my household). My sources cross ideological boundaries from the far left to the far right. I process the information and conclude on what I believe to be true from this synthesis - and even then I know I have limited or tainted information. I rarely just take a news authority at face value. I know from personal, direct experience that the news is more often then not biased and only gives a fraction of the real story.

Quote:


How about this example: is our Earth really rotating about the sun, or is it the other way around? You can't possibly know this for sure unless you've observed the movement of stars yourself, and calculated first-hand whether or not this is true. Otherwise, you are relying on and trusting others' theories and measurements, and that's BELIEF without proof, the same thing many here are "accused" of.




You read the studies of the scientists for yourself, not just blindly accept what they believe. That's the key and most of us are simply limited to just that - so to expect everyone to do the research and calculations of everything is simply unrealistic. I think this is much more of an accurate and honest belief system then just blindly accepting, say, New Age or magical garbage because it sounds cool and is emotionally appealing. I think it is a much more accurate and honst belief system then simply counter-reacting to science and rational thought and dismissing the value of logic, careful studies, and honest critique.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: So What's the Underlying Dymamic? [Re: TheCow]
    #5085572 - 12/20/05 11:39 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TheCow said:
Quote:

TheCow said:
Hey this is a nice :heart: session you guys are having.  How cute!

Edit: Unnecessary...



I just thought it was funny that there's a whole post devoted to you guys not needing to prove anything, because you know things to be true.  Alright, thats apparent by the title of the forum, you don't need to all rag on scientists who are actually out there to advance humanity, just accept your little game of spiritual wordplay and move on.
And its the 'whatever' smiley.




I didn't get to see what you wrote. It would've been funny in the context of what this post is actually all about.

Its not about ragging on scientists. :lol: It's not about spiritual word play. Had you read the post, and all of the contributions by those who understood what it was about, you would have seen this insight come into light;

Humans have a basic need to bond and connect with others. If for no other reason, we tend to do it, because it feels good. Perhaps it eases some sort of loneliness the ego lives within and thats not our natural state.

Its about understanding how when one is in a separatists ego state, they can bond and connect with others and experience that good feeling through conflict all the while supporting their separate ego.

It took a deeper collaborative look at the nature of conflict and how intimately engaging it actually is and can be. It took a look at how the conflict part is not necessary for getting to what it is we are really after. Weather one passionately hates or love, its the feeling of passion itself at play. Why mask it with hate? It is love. When people truly don't give a damn about another, they say nothing and walk away.

When people move in to confront and cause conflict, its because they care and want to feel closer and don't know how to do it comfortably or in an acceptable manor.

Its about how we can be seeking understanding through discussion and listening, to gain closer connections with others instead of TELLING them to be, think, feel and act more like us to feel a connection with them. People don't have to agree AT ALL with another's views, yet through listening and seeking understanding, we can still develop the feeling of having an intimate connection with others.

Well, for anyone who understood the picture of the insight, they can use it to find more peace and joy while seeking the good feeling of connecting versus living conflict and misery while seeking the feeling of connecting with others.

Obviously, maturity and the ability to set ego aside is key.

When it comes to mental and emotional bonding, when are grown adults going to stop having like people have cooties?

I can easily type the words I love you, and really mean and feel them in the universal sense. I've never even heard my own Father say them to me, save for the only way he knew how to connect, through putting me in the same pain he was in. It's stupidness to bond, connect and relate through causes conflict when we don't have too if we can just get over our separatists egos. Not egos entirely, just the self that believes it is separate and therefor can believe its better or worse then others. Only then, does it want to go around proving how much better it is. Thats why some here gave you the idea that, they don't feel they have to prove themselves to others. They are just working on transcending the separatists ego mind to live in more peace and understanding. That is all. :wink:

:peace: :love:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (12/20/05 11:42 AM)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: So What's the Underlying Dymamic? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5085585 - 12/20/05 11:44 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Oh, and what is cute Cow, is how you came into this post with a confrontational attitude as a means to feel closer, engage in and mix up energy with the people in it.

We love you too.  :cool: :heart: :hug:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineBeluga
Stranger
Registered: 08/14/22
Posts: 63
Last seen: 13 days, 14 hours
Re: So What's the Underlying Dymamic? [Re: moog]
    #28487471 - 09/30/23 07:49 AM (3 months, 27 days ago)

You confuse media with science.  Just because you do not have the knowledge and training necessary to assess the evidence for yourself and others are able to manipulate your ignorance for their own profit, doesnt mean that objective truth doesn’t exist.  Rejecting claims without proof is how you avoid getting manipulated by CNN.  Rejecting a new drug without good  long term experiments, repeated by unbiased investigators, proving safety and efficacy, is how you avoid poisoning yourself.  Some things we do not have the capability to adequately investigate yet.  Theories about such things should always be treated with skepticism until they can be evaluated properly.  Otherwise, you will be a chump who gets rolled by people selling you things.    It doesn’t mean you discount unproven claims off hand if they sound plausible, but you dont bet your life savings on such claims if you dont want to end up homeless.  Your example of astronomy and the heliocentric model is not a good one.  Sure, the best evidence to assess the claim regarding whether the earth really goes around the sun is to learn astrophysics and mathematics, and discover what evidence supports the claim, and see whether or not it makes sense.  If you dont have the opportunity to do so, you are left “trusting experts” to some degree.  Still, you are not just taking their word for it.  These experts have produced technology based on their theories that work.  They are able to predict astronomical events with certainty and have been correct countless times over.  They have a track record of applying their theories to the real world, and have produced results.  This may not “prove” their theory 100%, but it proves it to a large extent, and the acceptance of their theories from an intelligent person who is not in their field is still based on a lot more than faith or belief.  This is not the same as trusting media organizations or pharmaceutical companies with a track record of fraud and propaganda.    When it comes to spiritual matters, things become muddled, as we dont have the ability to directly assess and experiment with such things very easily.  We are left relying on personal experience, logic, and comparative studies of mysticism, philosophy, and religion.  Common threads that emerge become suggestive when combined with logic and experience, but they should be treated with skepticism and should not go much further.  We can watch NDE testimonials from the 10-20% of people who undergo cardiac arrest and have such an experience, and it should raise the possibility of consciousness survival after death, but it should be kept in the category of possibility rather than accepted truth until better evidence is produced.  There is a bell curve when dealing with the quality of evidence behind any claim.  The heliocentric model is pretty far to the right.  Some guy claiming he is the reincarnation of Genghis Khan because he had some dreams or something is pretty far to the left.  Regardless of the truth of the spiritual, we live our lives in a material realm where material laws exist.  Understanding these laws to the best of your ability using knowledge and your faculties of reason is pretty important if you want to survive.  Learning to assess evidence when you dont have direct knowledge or experience of a claim is important.  You dont need to jump off a building to assess the claim that if you do so you will probably die, and you dont need to be a fighter to know that you probably shouldnt pick a fight with a 300 lb football player if you are a 100 lb woman.  Maybe we are God in avatar, playing a silly game with ourselves here.  Regardless though, there are rules to the game world, rules that to a large extent can be discovered and used.  Basing your behavior and beliefs on an evidence based model instead of what feels or sounds good is usually going to be more advantageous than the opposite.  You are right in that you shouldnt blindly follow authority, but there are ways to evaluate what authority is saying that are not based on faith.


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