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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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So What's the Underlying Dymamic?
    #5057582 - 12/13/05 01:37 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)



I really want to understand what the "prove it to me" energy is all about.

What is this mystical force that makes readers think people are asking them , telling them, as if with applied force, that they have to believe anything posted here?

I would think a skeptic of the unseen  before anyone would not believe in magical unseen forces being applied to them.

Watching that is sort of funny to me and it may be a fun personal experiment for a vocal "I don't believe it prove it type" to self examine with. What is the force you think is being applied to you that says you have to believe anything anyone says or force them to prove it to you?

I've been thinking on it and came up with some interesting insight that I think helps me understand myself and others better and can serve me in being more understanding and less judgmental in the future.

I see two things going on with the energy dynamics behind the skeptic belief conflicts. Where there is conflict there is tension. Tension tends to hold things together. Could it be that people who like conflict actually like the feeling of being held together with others through the tension it provides?

In other words, is some subconscious need being fulfilled for experiencing togetherness with others, through conflict in a (warped way)?

That ties in with the second thing I see. Some initiating the conflict will say they are attempting to get to the truth. When it comes to subjective experiences, perspectives and beliefs, truth is individual and an "objective one truth fits all" doesn't apply. It's a waste of time to bother, yet people do.

So again, is this need to get everyone in agreeance on what is true and what is not, a subconscious need to feel "togetherness" "at oneness" with a group (in a warped way).

I parenthesis warped because I am wondering if intimacy issues generate it and if the only way they can experience togetherness or oneness within a group dynamic is if they don't know they are.

If you believe yourself to be engaged in conflict with someone, you can tell yourself you are very separate from them.

If you believe you are agreeing with others ONLY because the truth is the same for all, you can still be very separate from them in such a case. No self compromise needed with evident to all truths like the color blue being blue. We can agree on that without having to get close or bond.

If in the process of getting someone to agree with your idea of the truth, you can still believe you remain separate from them because in such a case you are dominating in influence over them, and are not being equaling at one with them.

I think this morning, I was wanting to look deeper into the underlying dynamics so I could better understand what I think may be really going on and feel a little more compassion towards those I think are on the surface being obnoxiously rude. It also helps me to reflect on myself and past when I have been.

In the least, the insight will serve me in the future to be more compassionate and less judgmental if I believe others are really just people who are not comfortable allowing themselves to feel close to people in an open and genuine way and so they learned how they can FEEL it, without ever having to admit to a prideful ego that they are engaging/indulging in feeling it.

Feeling togetherness with others feels good and I think its a basic human need on a soul level. Perhaps its people who don't believe in soul or a one spirit who won't allow themselves to acknowledge such an experience can actually be. So they have to create in their mind, an idea that separation still exists and get the "togetherness feeling" through conflict tension, being in agreeance on a one size fits all objective truth, or through dominance influence.

To the contrary, there are people who are very comfortable with people disagreeing with them. There are people very comfortable with feeling open to sharing in an experience, belief or idea with others that they themselves don't even believe in. They can still allow themselves to enjoy the intimate personal aspect of the sharing involved.

It's how we bond with others.

Why do you think some people are uncomfortable with feeling openly bonded together with others? We all know that it can be a very scary feeling for some, especially those with trouble being intimate with others.

Is it simply just an ego preservation thing? If so, that's easy to understand too and makes it easier not to judge those acting that way. I don't think they are even aware of it.

I think its sort of sucks, that humans have this fundamental need to feel bonded and connected to others while at the same time, we have ego minds that fight against that experience. Even sadder, that for some it takes conflict tension, trying to force a one size fits all objective truth upon people, or domineering influence, to allow themselves to experience it.

It seems like a cruelty of nature.

Something that goes along with ego preservation is feeding it validation that it exists. Weather it thinks its right or wrong about something, the more people it can get to agree with it, the more it is validated as being real.

We all have egos and we have all in our personal lives have been engaged in tension conflicts and pow wows to hammer out collective truths to move forward on plans with or have been a dominate influence on others. There's something in this post topic for everyone to gain some insight and understanding of ourselves and each other with. I don't mean to single anyone out.

I get myself into all sorts of conflict with others(not as often anymore as I use too) I can say I was raised to not feel comfortable with emotional intimacy and genuine open bonding. I sit here asking myself, is that why I do it with the people when I do it. Is it learned behavior and habit from the past? Is it because at the time, I don't want to acknowledge any sort of being together or experiencing intimacy with the other, yet I must be wanting to feel some sort of bonding with them if I bother to engage in conflict or attempts to dominate influence?

Let's face it, the people we fight with we do come to know well and engaging in conflict with others is a very intimate act. It's just a warped way of going about it. The ego isn't real either so it's really not necessary unless we want to maintain it.

:peace:  :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (12/13/05 08:54 PM)


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: So What's the Underlying Dymamic? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5058287 - 12/13/05 03:50 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

It makes me laugh when someone posts some COMPLETELY outrageous claim and then some smart ass poster replies with: "Source?". I mean what do they expect? A link to CNN or something?

Anyway, good post. Needed to be said.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: So What's the Underlying Dymamic? [Re: Revelation]
    #5058327 - 12/13/05 04:00 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Simple.
When something seemingly baseless is said with certianty, a skeptic, rationalist, or any sort scientific thinker will question that certianty. Why did this idea come about? What is it based on? Is it reasonable to think is this possible? How possible is it? etc?


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: So What's the Underlying Dymamic? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5058808 - 12/13/05 05:48 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, but there are some posters here who are not scientifically minded, and these posters share an interest in subjects which are simply intuitively valid for them. It has nothing to do with the rational mind. Like when jiggy posts about the Plaedians.

What kind of source would be acceptable to the sceptic? A link to a CNN story with the headline: "Plaedian Lightworkers Form Soul Matrix Grid Around Earth"?

(I'm not the best at expressing myself, sorry)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: So What's the Underlying Dymamic? [Re: Revelation]
    #5059083 - 12/13/05 06:45 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

:lol: Exactly Revelation. You got the general premise of what I was digging deeper into understanding and expressed yourself crystal clear to me!

Like when I talk about the trippy side of my life, take it or leave as is for what is.

that was only a partial point related to why people bother acting like people who post such stuff EXPECT non believers to believe. They share what they do for people who share in common beliefs interests and with those curious and open minded to possibilities.

I wanted to explore more deeply and understand why people bother in such a fruitless mission of asking for indisputable evidential proof of such subjective experiences related to intangible realms and the subtle realities.

I think I have it understood down to tension bonding.

What mush said is the surface explanation.

For example Mush, A member here claims to be the King of earth and the reincarnation of Lucifer. I've enjoyed many of his posts and have no need to know why he feels certain of this. If I don't believe it, who cares? If I were to state that I don't believe it, my statement doesn't make his beliefs wrong, nor change his beliefs. So what would I have accomplished by stating that? I know damn well he can't prove it. It's up to me to decide if I want to believe it , or accept that he believes it and go about my business believing he does so thats all that matters when/if I talk with him about it.
He believes it and its a part of his subjective life experience and he's sharing it with us, take it or leave it.

I do understand what you are saying mush. I don't understand what a complete science mind in the logical concrete sense is doing reading in a religion, mysticism, paranormal forum on a psychedelic message board looking for scientific minded proof AND believing they are going to get it. :rofl2:.

Pardon me for saying this, but it almost makes them look crazier then people posting about the pleiadians in here. You would expect to find that in a paranormal mystical forum and someone who believes in them there. That would be logical and rational to expect. What is logical and rational about a complete science mind not only spending time in a paranormal, religious, mystical forum but also expecting to find scientific proof and backing for topics of discussion here?

A sincere science/logic only mind would sincerely have no interest of virtue in this place. So, I personally don't buy your explanation mush regarding skeptical posts in this forum. I agree that at a tech development brainstorming meeting at NASA , if some astro physicist claimed he could get us to the moon in 18 hrs, then of course it would be logical and rational for the other physicist to ask him questions for why he feels so certain about that.

They are like minded , having come together in a common goal and interest.

What is someone with no appreciation for nature, with horrible allergies and two brown thumbs doing participating in an out door gardening club? Their being there is in more logical rational questioning then their questioning the gardener that believes fairies are helping their petunias bloom larger.

Anyway, thats just funny to witness like revelation said.

I wanted to explore the tension dynamic of conflict and how I think it is serving an underlying need for human bonding and intimacy for those who are mentally uncomfortable with it and like to believe they are separate from others yet, crave that feeling of being bonded in togetherness. Conflict tension can provide that.

That is the main insight for the day and of this post that I wanted to share for others to consider.

I just thought back to how some people made comments about this forum being for those who like everyone to agree. They say it likes it a bad thing. Agreeing, when its genuinly felt, even if its peaceful agreeing to disagree, is a healthy form of feeling connected and bonded with others. Its a sign that someone is okay and secure to be a part of a larger entity and doesn't need to be distinguished a part from them. Thats what the ego wants to do.

What a great way to get ego attention. Walk into a group of unlike minded people, diagree with all of them, and stick out like a sore thumb. Become confrontational in that disagreeance and create conflict dialog and now you are intimately exchanging passionate energy with others, bonding yourself to the group through tension all the while, beleiving you are so separate from them.

When it comes down to it, everyone is after the same thing. Some are open and honest about it and others are hiding it from even them selves.

People who sincerely don't want to intimately bond and connect with others do not engage in friendly or non friendly disscusion with others period. If more people can get honest with themselves, the more people can engage in peaceful bonding instead of conflict/tension bonding.

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: So What's the Underlying Dymamic? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5059680 - 12/13/05 08:56 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I can dig it. I'm not trying to defend individuals who maliciously attack beliefs that don't jive with their own worldview under the guise of skepticism. But, I can hardly see the problem with asking "Why?" Some things I hear seem to contradict [my] reality so much, I simply don't know what the fuck they are talking about!... Not that I know what the fuck I'm talking about... but I'm getting off track here....
Anyway, I thought the following excerpt was relevant to the discussion, I enjoy it very much:

"Lao-Tse says (at least in Leary's translation) that the Great Tao is most often found with parents who are willing to learn from their children. This remark was to cause me considerable mental strain and dilation around this time in our narrative, because my children had become very self-directed adolescents and were getting into occultism with much more enthusiasm and much less skepticism than I thought judicious.

For a few years, we could not discuss these subjects without arguing, despite my attempts to remember good old Lao-Tse and really listen to the kids. They believed in astrology, which I was still convinced was bosh; in reincarnation, which I considered an extravagant metaphor one shouldn't take literally; and in that form of the doctrine of Karma which holds, optimistically, that the evil really are punished and the good really are rewarded, which I considered a wishful fantasy no more likely than the Christian idea of Heaven and Hell. Worst of all, they had a huge appetite for various Oriental "Masters" whom I regarded as total charlatans, and an enormous disdain for all the scientific methodology of the West.

My own position was identical to that of Aleister Crowley when he wrote:

We place no reliance
On Virgin or Pigeon;
Our method is Science,
Our aim is Religion.

After every argument with one of the kids, I would vow again to listen more sympathetically, less judgmentally, to their Pop Orientalism. I finally began to succeed. I learned a great deal from them.
A "miracle" then happened. I know this will be harder for the average American parent to believe than any of my other weird yarns, but my horde of self-willed and self-directed adolescents began to listen to me. Real communication was established. Even though I was in my 40s and greying in the beard, I was able to talk intelligently with four adolescents about our philosophical disagreements, and our mutual respect for each other grew by leaps and bounds.

This, I think, is the greatest result I have obtained from all my occult explorations, even if the unmarried will not appreciate how miraculous it was.

Luna, our youngest-the one who might have levitated in Mexico and who had her first menstrual period synchronistically on the day Tim Leary was busted in Afghanistantaught me the hardest lesson of all. She had begun to paint m watercolors and everything she did charmed me: it was always full of sun and light, in a way that was as overpowering as Van Gogh.

"What do all these paintings mean?" I asked her one day.

"I'm trying to show the Clear Light," she said.

Then, returning from school one afternoon, Luna was beaten and robbed by a gang of black kids. She was weeping and badly frightened when she arrived home, and her Father was shaken by the unfairness of it happening to her, such a gentle, ethereal child. In the midst of consoling her, the Father wandered emotionally and began denouncing the idea of Karma. Luna was beaten, he said, not for her sins, but for the sins of several centuries of slavers and racists, most of whom had never themselves suffered for those sins. "Karma is a blind machine," he said. "The effects of evil go on and on but they don't necessarily come back on those who start the evil." Then Father got back on the track and said some more relevant and consoling things.

The next day Luna was her usual sunny and cheerful self, just like the Light in her paintings. "I'm glad you're feeling better," the Father said finally.

"I stopped the wheel of Karma," she said. "All the bad energy is with the kids who beat me up. I'm not holding any of it."

And she wasn't. The bad energy had entirely passed by, and there was no anger or fear in her. I never saw her show any hostility to blacks after the beating, any more than before.

The Father fell in love with her all over again. And he understood what the metaphor of the wheel of Karma really symbolizes and what it means to stop the wheel.

Karma, in the original Buddhist scriptures, is a blind machine; in fact, it is functionally identical with the scientific concept of natural law. Sentimental ethical ideas about justice being built into the machine, so that those who do evil in one life are punished for it in another life, were added later by theologians reasoning from their own moralistic prejudices. Buddha simply indicated that all the cruelties and injustices of the past are still active: their effects are always being felt. Similarly, he explained, all the good of the past, all the kindness and patience and love of decent people is also still being felt.
Since most humans are still controlled by fairly robotic reflexes, the bad energy of the past far outweighs the good, and the tendency of the wheel is to keep moving in the same terrible direction, violence breeding more violence, hatred breeding more hatred, war breeding more war. The only way to "stop the wheel" is to stop it inside yourself, by giving up bad energy and concentrating on the positive. This is by no means easy, but once you understand what Gurdjieff called "the horror of our situation," you have no choice but to try, and to keep on trying.

And Luna, at 13, understood this far better than I did, at 43, with all my erudition and philosophy.... I still regarded her absolute vegetarianism and pacifism as sentimentality."

-- Robert Anton Wilson, Cosmic Trigger


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: So What's the Underlying Dymamic? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5059748 - 12/13/05 09:09 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Hey.........:yesnod: :thumbup:  That was beautiful! AND it definitely did capture another aspect of this post (the goal) in example story forms. Thank you for adding this indeed! :cool:

:peace:  :love:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: So What's the Underlying Dymamic? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5059792 - 12/13/05 09:21 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

"Having to prove for yourself, not knowing you are it!"
-Unknonw :P


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OfflineGliders
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Re: So What's the Underlying Dymamic? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5059797 - 12/13/05 09:23 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Jiggy, I don't know if this fits in with your post or not, but I had some similar thoughts while accidentally watching some wrestling on TV. I was walking by, and it was just "on," and I just stood there and watched it for a minute, and wondered at how intimate it looked in its savage way. I began to think about the relationships men have with each other that are "sanctioned" by society, and how it inevitably involves violence of some sort. Football, wrestling, boxing, and even college hazing... so I was wondering if this was the only intimacy they allowed themselves to have, and if the headlock they found themselves in on the mat was as close as they could come to a hug. Is this a physical parallel to what you're saying about tension?


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: So What's the Underlying Dymamic? [Re: Gomp]
    #5059896 - 12/13/05 09:52 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

ha ha indeed gomp. All of this proving ourselves to each other when we are each other as humans and in spirit and what for? :crazy2:

Oooooooooooooh glider, :yesnod: You captured an essence of it in the physical sense, I was talking just in the verbal but it applies the same to give a better picture.

Think of two mortal enemies locked in combat. That is so intimate, how they come to know each others ultimate strengths and weakness, hopes and fears. Conflict is an intimate bonding dance that is "acceptable" amongst men or anyone who wishes to appear separate and detached or beleives they are or just isn't comfortable with loving and peaceful bonding and connecting.

Physical bonding is important to the human nature as well. People do crave it because it feels good/God. I watch some pro wrestling matches and I swear these guys in duel get more physical contact bonding then my own parents in marriage engage in. :lol:

I appreciate how you nailed the "acceptability" on the nose. And I wonder, when people who believe themselves to be dettached or think they should be or at least appear that way, will outgrow the need to use conflict to get the goods/God feeling of intimately connecting to and bonding with others.

What I meant by tension is that stuff in room so thick you can cut it with a knife when two people have been in a heated argument. It's like gel goo that keeps to people locked in on each other. Tension holds things together. Some people use it to hold relationships together when they don't know how to through and with love.

When you are pissed at someone you are in conflict with, you can't stop thinking about them..........just like when you fall in love with someone.  Same difference to me, the underlying need to connect and bond in a deeply intimate way, only one is acceptable for those whose egos have them detached and separate.

Two people engaged in conflict are engaged in each other and that is an intimate place to be. Alot of sharing and mixxing up of energy is going on.

Anyway, the next time you see conflict or someone being confrontational, think of how humorous it will be to you when you look at it this way, seeing the underlying dynamic behind the mask of conflict. I will be laughing my ass off.

It's like when someone gives another a nasty one shroom rating and the other rates them back with a 5 saying, "You love me don't you?" :rofl2:

Thanks for adding that glider! Geez you guys are hot on it! :cool:

:peace:  :heart:

edit-greamlin fix


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (12/13/05 09:56 PM)


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OfflineGliders
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Re: So What's the Underlying Dymamic? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5060065 - 12/13/05 10:25 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Well, I think society in general is addicted to tension, drama, and other high emotions. Hence the unfortunate run of "reality shows" we've had inflicted upon is the past several years. So you have addiction on one hand and a desire for intimacy gone awry, and boom-- there you have it! Verbal exchange or knock'em sock'em games.... the last bastion of intimacy for those asleep at the wheel.


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Invisiblespudamore
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Re: So What's the Underlying Dymamic? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5060263 - 12/13/05 11:08 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

what a great read jiggy, i don't think that this only applies to skeptics i think it applies to everybody. :heart:


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suicide a permanent solution to a temporary problem


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: So What's the Underlying Dymamic? [Re: spudamore]
    #5060416 - 12/13/05 11:34 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

For sure! It started out with noticing a bit of 'skeptic confrontation" creeping into this forum again and my wanting to understand it in a new light, and ended up with me realising, there's more to it and it does apply to everyone.

Glad you liked it and everyones contributions really helped to fill it out. Thanks all! :hug:

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: So What's the Underlying Dymamic? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5060996 - 12/14/05 04:14 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

well, it depends on the context.

For example, if someone says "an alien butprobed me yesterday and told me that the pyramids of giza are marshmallows" i wouldnt even bother asking for proof.

if someone said " hey man, my eyes are yellow" i might say, really? can i have a look?

but i think what you are maybe refering to is the doubters who question things like

"you are a co creator with god"

"all your suffering exists only because you cling to it"

"you can wake up at any time"

people who habitually argue with these kinds of statements, in my oppinion, are suffering from an ancient and powerfull psychological barrier.

The "its too good to be true syndrome"

some people have accepted the unfounded assumption that harshness is more "credible" than benevolence, so to speak.

People just simply cant get their heads around the fact that the universe and its nature are so staggeringly benevolent.

I dont blame them, really, nor even pity them anymore. we are all where we need to be.

but i do say this: once you get passed the "its too good to be true syndrome" life can become a continuous process of amazement. amazement that the world can be so much kinder, loving and benevolent than any human mind could imagine... until we realize that the universe is mind... or whatever. END.

great reads all around btw


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Everything I post is fiction.


Edited by Moonshoe (12/14/05 10:10 AM)


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: So What's the Underlying Dymamic? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5063245 - 12/14/05 04:22 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

People are rejects. What is more to say?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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OfflineTheCow
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Re: So What's the Underlying Dymamic? [Re: psyka]
    #5063321 - 12/14/05 04:40 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Hey this is a nice :heart: session you guys are having.  How cute!

Edit: Unnecessary...


Edited by JacquesCousteau (12/14/05 05:15 PM)


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: So What's the Underlying Dymamic? [Re: TheCow]
    #5063335 - 12/14/05 04:43 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Oh yea? You smell like potporri.

Edit: There, now everyone's happy.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



Edited by JacquesCousteau (12/14/05 05:15 PM)


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: So What's the Underlying Dymamic? [Re: TheCow]
    #5063349 - 12/14/05 04:48 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

This is not the debate forum, but a supportive forum for sharing beliefs. You might be looking for P&S, but your use of the jerk-off smiley is much more OTD.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: So What's the Underlying Dymamic? [Re: TheCow]
    #5063513 - 12/14/05 05:36 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TheCow said:
Hey this is a nice :heart: session you guys are having.  How cute!

Edit: Unnecessary...



I just thought it was funny that theres a whole post devoted to you guys not needing to prove anything, because you know things to be true.  Alright, thats apparent by the title of the forum, you dont need to all rag on scientists who are actually out there to advance humanity, just accept your little game of spiritual wordplay and move on.
And its the 'whatever' smiley.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: So What's the Underlying Dymamic? [Re: psyka]
    #5063840 - 12/14/05 06:40 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

psyka said:
People are rejects. What is more to say?




So, individuals like, say, Carl Sagan who used the scientific method toward truth were just rejects?


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