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OfflineLearyfanS
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Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again
    #5048522 - 12/11/05 02:46 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

But he didn't actually say it, so he didn't say it, right?

Link


Quote:

"Some say by liberating Iraq we stirred up a
hornet's nest. They overlook the fact: We were
not in Iraq on 9-11 and the terrorists hit us anyway."
-Dick Cheney









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Invisiblelooner2
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Registered: 06/20/04
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Learyfan]
    #5048549 - 12/11/05 02:51 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

It's a true statement. We are dealing with the whole middle east here.

Iraq was just a stepping stone and the first of many. As death reigns down on that shithole borders will dissolve.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: looner2]
    #5048609 - 12/11/05 03:03 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Iraq was just a stepping stone and the first of many. As death reigns down on that shithole borders will dissolve.



You seriously would make a great movie villain.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: looner2]
    #5048721 - 12/11/05 03:31 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
It's a true statement. We are dealing with the whole middle east here.

Iraq was just a stepping stone and the first of many. As death reigns down on that shithole borders will dissolve.




Yes, it is a true statement. We were not in Iraq on 9/11 and we did get hit anyway. What those two things have to do with one another is the question.








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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: looner2]
    #5048755 - 12/11/05 03:49 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
It's a true statement. We are dealing with the whole middle east here.

Iraq was just a stepping stone and the first of many. As death reigns down on that shithole borders will dissolve.



The statement may be true, but it is worthless. Nobody is claiming that our actions in Iraq have spawned terrorism when before no terrorism existed at all. The claim is that our actions in Iraq have exacerbated the terrorist situation.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Ancalagon]
    #5048804 - 12/11/05 04:01 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
The claim is that our actions in Iraq have exacerbated the terrorist situation.




I don't care if it has exacerbated the terrorist situation. To give credence to their actions and then slide away into a hole and hope it doesn't happen again disgusts me. (Nevermind the broader argument of diplomacy vs war. What works?)

In short, war is more honorable.


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Edited by looner2 (12/11/05 04:13 PM)

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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: looner2]
    #5048907 - 12/11/05 04:27 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I don't care if it has exacerbated the terrorist situation.



Can you be serious? Have we sacrificed so much in terms of wealth and life just so you and your ilk can get their revenge hard-ons? If you don't care if our foreign policy makes America less safe that's your prerogative (personally I think that's borderline psychotic but to each his own), but it should not then be presented to the American people as if it is.

Quote:

To give credence to their actions and then slide away into a hole and hope it doesn't happen again disgusts me.



Yet again, assume a situation in which China has occupied the United States. Let us assume that some Americans actively resist the occupation and others are docile. Let us further assume that some of those who resist employ violence while others do not. Even further, let's assume that some of those who use violence deliberately target docile American civilians. Would you not take part in a resistence at all for fear of 'giving credence to their actions'?

Quote:

In short, war is more honorable.



There is nothing honorable about war for its own sake. A just war is indeed honorable and essential by its very nature but the perpetual war for perpetual peace that we find ourselves embroiled in generation after generation is as base as things get.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Learyfan]
    #5048974 - 12/11/05 04:44 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Learyfan makes bogus thread title.... again.

You trying to wrest the crown from Annapurna1?




Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Ancalagon]
    #5048984 - 12/11/05 04:47 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The claim is that our actions in Iraq have exacerbated the terrorist situation.




An arbitrary claim if ever there was one.



Phred


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Ancalagon]
    #5048985 - 12/11/05 04:47 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Can you be serious? Have we sacrificed so much in terms of wealth and life just so you and your ilk can get their revenge hard-ons? If you don't care if our foreign policy makes America less safe that's your prerogative (personally I think that's borderline psychotic but to each his own), but it should not then be presented to the American people as if it is.



:thumbup:


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Learyfan]
    #5049523 - 12/11/05 07:21 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Ignorance. Osama Bin Laden Master scheme was to connect Saddam to the 9/11 plot with phoney information because Osama and Saddam were ideaological oppposites. Saddam drank heavily and liked women.

Osama Bin laden's grand scheme as well was to use a lot of Saudi Hijackers so evidence would show to Saudia Arabia as the culprit.

2 birds with one stone.

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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Ancalagon]
    #5050344 - 12/11/05 10:39 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Can you be serious? Have we sacrificed so much in terms of wealth and life just so you and your ilk can get their revenge hard-ons? If you don't care if our foreign policy makes America less safe that's your prerogative (personally I think that's borderline psychotic but to each his own), but it should not then be presented to the American people as if it is.




There are two options when confronted with a threat.

Run or Fight

That is it! Laws of nature act from the smallest animal confrontation to the politics of nations. Regardless if our decision to fight resulted in more immediate terrorism is inconsequential. These are the terms of strategy. A few terrorists to kill because of one action is just a stepping stone in the larger strategic scheme. In short, we'll deal with it as the conflict continues on.

To use this small contingency as a means of shifting strategy to one of Run is opening a whole new bag. A bag that I, as a student of history, have observed as the one that results in the greater chance of defeat.

Not only is it dishonorable in the sense of being cowardly, but it is the weaker decision in ensuring safety of our nation.

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Yet again, assume a situation in which China has occupied the United States. Let us assume that some Americans actively resist the occupation and others are docile. Let us further assume that some of those who resist employ violence while others do not. Even further, let's assume that some of those who use violence deliberately target docile American civilians. Would you not take part in a resistance at all for fear of 'giving credence to their actions'?




As much as I hate weird/impossible scenarios requiring me to make a moral judgment, I will concede and admit that I would fight. Of course.

But I am not in the business of understanding the Iraqi will to fight and the complexities of their "resistance". There is a separate argument on how many actual freedom fighters there are compared to whacked splodydopes, but I understand your point.

Whether or not an Iraqi believes he is fighting an occupying force for the greater good doesn't concern me. The facts are he is actively participating in the destruction of his country. Why? We are attempting to bring democracy to their nation, and keep them from sinking into civil war.

On an even broader scale. The interests of my country are first and foremost the most important thing in this conflict, and therefore if the Iraqi resistance needs to be destroyed for our own calculated strategic purposes, then destroyed they should be.


Quote:

Ancalagon said:
There is nothing honorable about war for its own sake. A just war is indeed honorable and essential by its very nature but the perpetual war for perpetual peace that we find ourselves embroiled in generation after generation is as base as things get.




History has been punctuated peace, protected by punctuated war. It is how its been, and will always be.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Phred]
    #5051430 - 12/12/05 08:28 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Learyfan makes bogus thread title.... again.






But he didn't actually say it, so he didn't say it, right?
:chillpill:


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: exclusive58]
    #5052777 - 12/12/05 02:49 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

First: you would have to be retarded or have very poor critical reading skills to believe that qoute is implicating Iraq with 911.

As far as the actual qoute goes I'm going to agree with Cheney here. If somebody is pissed off enough to hijack passenger airplanes and crash them into giant buildings killing potentially 20,000 people, I think it is hard to piss them off even more.

Since the mid 90s Al Qaeda has declared war on all Americans including civilians. It is true that they have at times done so on the grounds that we were helping Israel or stationed in Saudi Arabia, but underlying all of this is the belief in struggle between good and evil against the false muslims and infidels that are corrupting the world! Unless America converted to Islam (OBL's Islam that is) there is pretty much nothing we could do to not be a terrorist target. Look how the capitulation worked for the Spanish.

Invading Iraq isn't going to make Al Qaeda more angry. Even though the Arab street might be pissed off, we are only worried about terrorist groups with global reach, and believe or not that is a small number of people.


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2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #5053312 - 12/12/05 04:12 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Divided Sky is right. Nothing is gonna stop Al Qaeda declaring Jihad. However Its not a good idea to go into a hornets nest and stirring up about as much shit as you could. Everytime their is another attack on our credibility the terrorists will grow stronger.

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #5055113 - 12/12/05 10:03 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Learyfan makes bogus thread title.... again.

You trying to wrest the crown from Annapurna1?




Phred




Phred, you old rascal.  You know darn well and good that Cheney is implicating Iraq in the 9/11 attacks with this statement.  Sometimes believe that you are loyal to people rather than America.  I mean it's so obvious that Cheney uses Iraq and 9/11 in the same breath in order to morph Bin Laden into Hussein in the public mind. 




Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
Ignorance. Osama Bin Laden Master scheme was to connect Saddam to the 9/11 plot with phoney information because Osama and Saddam were ideaological oppposites. Saddam drank heavily and liked women.

Osama Bin laden's grand scheme as well was to use a lot of Saudi Hijackers so evidence would show to Saudia Arabia as the culprit.

2 birds with one stone.




Maybe I'm just high, but I don't understand what you're getting at here.




Quote:

exclusive58 said:
Quote:

Phred said:
Learyfan makes bogus thread title.... again.






But he didn't actually say it, so he didn't say it, right?
:chillpill:




:grin:  Good one exclusive.


Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
If somebody is pissed off enough to hijack passenger airplanes and crash them into giant buildings killing potentially 20,000 people, I think it is hard to piss them off even more. 




It's like you believe that all Arab people attacked us on 9/11. 








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OfflinePhred
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Learyfan]
    #5056012 - 12/13/05 04:26 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Learyfan writes:

Quote:

Phred, you old rascal. You know darn well and good that Cheney is implicating Iraq in the 9/11 attacks with this statement.




I know no such thing, and -- as Divided_Sky points out -- neither does anyone else not caught in the grip of Bush Derangement Syndrome.

Quote:

I mean it's so obvious that Cheney uses Iraq and 9/11 in the same breath in order to morph Bin Laden into Hussein in the public mind.




It's far from obvious to anyone not caught in the grip of Bush derangement syndrome. I shudder in despair for the future of those hapless souls who had the misfortune of being "educated" in American government schools when I read statements like the above.

"He mentions 9-11 in the sentence right after the one in which he mentions Iraq! He's trying to fool us into thinking Iraq was responsible for 9/11!"

Jesus wept.




Phred


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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Phred]
    #5057448 - 12/13/05 01:10 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

you act like it's this ridiclously far fetched theory that only a delusional moron would come up with, when infact it has been proven that these kinds of things do effect peoples beliefs on the subject of the iraq-9/11 connection. At the time of the invasion a very large segment of the population believed saddam was involved in 9/11 and that they were allies. Why did they believe this? Was it the liberal media telling them this, or was it Bush and cheneys speeches, that were meant to drum up war support, where they carelessly spoke as if al-queda and hussein were one in the same? They did this to create hatred and fear of saddam hussein, and to gain overwhelming support for the war, so they could go to war. And it worked too. i dont remember the exact figures but it was a very large percentage that believed saddam was involved in 9/11. Bush and Cheney implied this connection and people bought into it, not cuz everyones stupid, but because people want to think they can trust their leaders with such a serious subject. Whether they imply something or say it directly doesn't really matter if the same end result would be created by either, because the motive was always the same. WAR.

And now cheney is still throwing this kind of slick misinformation around, probably directly as a result of bushes terrible poll numbers, democrats increasing boldness, and americans second guessing the war. I guess it's time to remind everyone in the country that al queda is still out there. It's an attempt to unify the country through hatred.

Just answer this though: If all us liberals who are pointing this out are crazy, then what caused so many people to belive, just before the war started, that there was such a link? Please don't tell me it was liberal media.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #5058853 - 12/13/05 05:56 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

you act like it's this ridiclously far fetched theory that only a delusional moron would come up with, when infact it has been proven that these kinds of things do effect peoples beliefs on the subject of the iraq-9/11 connection.




No such thing has been "proven".

Quote:

At the time of the invasion a very large segment of the population believed saddam was involved in 9/11 and that they were allies. Why did they believe this? Was it the liberal media telling them this, or was it Bush and cheneys speeches, that were meant to drum up war support, where they carelessly spoke as if al-queda and hussein were one in the same?




Another trope of Lefties -- that the "great unwashed" are incapable of drawing their own conclusions. They believe whatever the MSM tells them, or whatever neocons tell them, or whatever the Bush adminstration tells them.

I made a post here a few months back detailing my experiences on September 11, 2001 and a few days afterwards where people from several different nations (I live in a tourist town in the Caribbean) were convinced from the beginning -- long before any member of the Bush administration had made any public comment on the perpetrators one way or the other -- that Hussein was involved in the attacks. Those people reached that conclusion all on their own. Some of them no longer believe Hussein was involved, but some of them remain convinced to this day Hussein had at least some level of involvement. And none of them is American. Let me see if I can dig up that post rather than retyping it all again.

The fact that many people believe things with no concrete evidence doesn't mean they believe them because the Bush administration tells them to or provides subtle subliminal messages regarding the subject. The fact of the matter is that no Bush administration official has ever said or even implied Hussein was involved in 9-11. To the contrary, every time -- without exception -- they have been asked outright whether they believe Hussein was involved in the attacks they have always answered no. Always. Every time.

Quote:

And now cheney is still throwing this kind of slick misinformation around, probably directly as a result of bushes terrible poll numbers, democrats increasing boldness, and americans second guessing the war.




If -- and this is a big if -- Cheney is now doing this kind of thing, the quote Learyfan provides isn't an example of it. Why don't you read the freaking quote and then explain to us how it in any way shape or form implies Hussein was behind 9-11. Because it doesn't. Not even close.

Quote:

If all us liberals who are pointing this out are crazy, then what caused so many people to belive, just before the war started, that there was such a link?




It is not unreasonable at all to presume Hussein had a hand in the attacks. I personally don't believe he did (although I wouldn't fall over in shock if concrete proof were to someday surface showing he did), and the Bush administration doesn't believe he did, but I certainly can't blame others for believing he did. It's a hell of a lot more reasonable to believe that than to believe Bush orchestrated the attacks or that a missile hit the Pentagon or that the towers were brought down by explosive charges concealed in the buildings before the planes hit.




Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Phred]
    #5058903 - 12/13/05 06:09 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I found the post of mine I was looking for -- http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4328507#Post4328507

Quote:

Because it is not illogical to assume that Hussein had a hand in it.

Hussein made no secret of his hatred of the US. Hell, he even tried to assassinate Bush the First, remember. Is it irrational to assume -- even in the face of no confirming proof (as of yet) but with as yet no exculpatory evidence either -- that Hussein might have delighted in the idea of such an enormously public slap in the face to America? Of course it isn't. Given the further fact that he had been known for years (through reports in the mainstream media) to have supported and harbored terrorists and even to have at one point offered safe haven in Iraq to Osama and his Merry Pranksters, can anyone honestly say they are surprised that many Americans concluded on their own that Hussein had a hand in it somewhere along the line? Maybe just to the extent of providing funding, even?

Look, I watched replays on television the afternoon of the attack. Present were Germans, French, Dutch, Italian, English, Canadians, and Americans (I live in a tourist town in the Caribbean). It was the unanimous opinion of every single person in the room that it was the work of Islamic nutbars. None of us at the time thought any other possibility to be more likely.

More to the point, everyone other than myself, a single German guy, the English couple, and one French girl thought it was Hussein's doing. I'm not making this up. Some of those people I have never seen again, others I still see on a regular basis. Interestingly enough, none of the Americans I still see believe -- today -- that Hussein was involved, although all of them admit it wouldn't take a boatload of ironclad evidence to convince them otherwise; they just want to see some evidence before reversing their opinion. But the two Dutch guys and three of the Germans who watched it with me still think Hussein was behind it, but that we just haven't found the proof yet. Their argument is that bin Laden was too unsophisticated to have organized it without help from Hussein.

Now, my point is not to say that this small group of people is representative of the people in various nations all around the world, my point is that a good percentage of the people in that room made a snap judgment immediately and refuse to budge from it -- a judgment that quite obviously had nothing to do with any statements made by the US government. I guarantee you the German guys pay little to no attention to the American news media. There's a reason the phrase "first impressions are lasting impressions" has become a clich?, after all.







Phred


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Phred]
    #5059112 - 12/13/05 06:55 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

We read the quote, Phred. Like many other quotes similar to this, Cheney justifies the war by mentioning 9/11. What the hell does 9/11 have to do with why we're in Iraq stirring up the hornet's nest???

Phred, you have to have some sort of vested financial interest in the Republican party. What is it?







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Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Learyfan]
    #5059196 - 12/13/05 07:14 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Phred, you have to have some sort of vested financial interest in the Republican party. What is it?




I vote ban for this comment. Classless, ridiculously... more of the same.


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Learyfan]
    #5059238 - 12/13/05 07:31 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Learyfan writes:

Quote:

We read the quote, Phred.




There is a difference between passing your eyes over something and reading it.

Quote:

Like many other quotes similar to this, Cheney justifies the war by mentioning 9/11.




First of all, I must of course point out that the "quote" you provided is not a quote at all, but a paraphrase. Here's what you provided as a "quote" --

"Some say by liberating Iraq we stirred up a hornet's nest. They overlook the fact: We were not in Iraq on 9-11 and the terrorists hit us anyway."

Here's what Cheney actually said --

"Some have suggested that by liberating Iraq from Saddam Hussein, we simply stirred up a hornet's nest. They overlook a fundamental fact: We were not in Iraq on September 11th, 2001, and the terrorists hit us anyway."

If you had actually read the quote, why did you have such difficulty getting it correct?

Secondly, the quote was not a stand alone statement. It was the beginning of the rest of his observations on the nature of Islamic terrorists and their war on the West --

Quote:

Some have suggested that by liberating Iraq from Saddam Hussein, we simply stirred up a hornet's nest. They overlook a fundamental fact: We were not in Iraq on September 11th, 2001, and the terrorists hit us anyway. The reality is that terrorists were at war with our country long before the liberation of Iraq, and long before the attacks of 9/11. And for many years, they were the ones on the offensive. They grew bolder in their belief that if they killed enough Americans, they could change American policy. In Beirut in 1983, terrorists killed 241 of our servicemen. Thereafter, U.S. forces withdrew from Beirut. In Mogadishu in 1993, terrorists killed 19 American soldiers. Thereafter, United States forces withdrew from Somalia. Over time, the terrorists concluded that they could strike America without paying a price, because they did, repeatedly: They bombed the World Trade Center in 1993; the murders at the Saudi National Guard training facility in Riyadh in 1995; the Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia in 1996; the simultaneous bombing of two of our embassies in East Africa in 1998; and the USS Cole in 2000.




Nowhere in this paragraph -- or in any other statement made by Cheney at any other time -- does Cheney "blame Iraq for 9/11", which is what your headline for this thread claims.




Phred


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Phred]
    #5059809 - 12/13/05 09:27 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I don't care how you dress it up. He was obviously mentioning the two in the same sentence in order to trick people into thinking that Iraq is linked to 9/11. I guess you don't see it that way. That's fine.








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Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Phred]
    #5060704 - 12/14/05 12:51 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Cheney described Iraq as "the geographic base of the terrorists who have had us under assault for many years, but most especially on 9/11."

Cheney on Meet the Press in 2003: "We learn more and more that there was a relationship between Iraq and Al Qaeda that stretched back through most of the decade of the '90s," Cheney said, "that it involved training, for example, on biological and chemical weapons, that Al Qaeda sent personnel to Baghdad to get trained on the systems."

Clearly, Cheney was describing exactly the sort of "collaborative relationship" that the September 11 commission now says that Iraq did not have with Al Qaeda.



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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Learyfan]
    #5061067 - 12/14/05 05:35 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I don't care how you dress it up.




Tanslation -- don't bother me with facts.

Quote:

He was obviously ...




It is far from obvious. It is a completely arbitrary speculation on your part that this was his motivation.

Quote:

...mentioning the two in the same sentence...




Yet more evidence that you haven't even read the quote. The two are not mentioned in the same sentence.

Quote:

... in order to trick people into thinking that Iraq is linked to 9/11.




As is crystal clear from Cheney's following remarks, the purpose of his statement was not to "trick" people into thinking Iraq was behind 9/11, but to point out that the coalition's liberation of Iraq was not the cause of terrorism against the West.

Quote:

I guess you don't see it that way.




Not only do *I* not see it that way, neither could any native English speaker not in the grip of Bush Derangement Syndrome who takes the time to actually read what was said.

Quote:

That's fine.




I'm ever so glad you approve of my reading comprehension.



Phred


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Swami]
    #5061080 - 12/14/05 05:56 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Source, please. Sounds to me like it's misquotes torn out of context from a "Meet the Press" interview Cheney gave a couple years back, but I may be mistaken. The rules of this forum require that when providing a quote the poster also (when possible) provide a link to the source from which the quote was obtained. Please do so.

Quote:

Clearly, Cheney was describing exactly the sort of "collaborative relationship" that the September 11 commission now says that Iraq did not have with Al Qaeda.




-- if true (and it isn't), this doesn't address Learyfan's misrepresentation of the quote he provided as an example of Cheney blaming Iraq for 9-11

-- there is ample evidence of Hussein's Iraq involvement with terrorists (even terrorists from Al Qaeda), so Cheney is correct in noting it. However, the statement you quote says nothing about Iraq's involvement in the 9-11 attacks. Those of us who follow current events are aware there have been more terrorist attacks against the US by Islamic terrorists than the 9-11 attacks.




Phred


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Phred]
    #5061082 - 12/14/05 05:57 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

neither could any native English speaker not in the grip of Bush Derangement Syndrome

As this adds nothing to the discussion and is merely an attempt to bait and insult the poster, that is worthy of a ban or least a warning. Oh wait! I forget that different rules apply to some.  :rolleyes:

1) NO FLAMING ...if you can't state your case or refute someone elses case without calling them "stupid" or an "idiot"..etc...Then don't bother posting here. This forum is for intelligent debate, not to try to belittle someone that doesn't think like you. THIS WILL BE STRICTLY ENFORCED ...

Yeah, sure it will be enforced!

Did LearyFan also imagine the 30 odd Bush speeches wherein Iraq and 9/11 are mentioned in the same paragraph. Why the juxtaposition if there is no attempt to link or deceive?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Swami]
    #5061086 - 12/14/05 06:02 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

> Why the juxtaposition if there is no attempt to link or deceive?

Perhaps because the people writing the speeches are a lot more intelligent than the people reading the speeches?


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Just another spore in the wind.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Swami]
    #5061098 - 12/14/05 06:12 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Did LearyFan also imagine the 30 odd Bush speeches wherein Iraq and 9/11 are mentioned in the same paragraph. Why the juxtaposition if there is no attempt to link or deceive?




More than thirty speeches where they were mentioned in the same paragraph? Source, please.

Here we see the standard Libby tactic of lowering the bar. Now it's not necessary for Bush to mention Iraq and 9-11 in the same sentence, or even in consecutive sentences in order to be accused of blaming Iraq for 9-11. Now it's sufficient he mention them in the same paragraph. What next -- in consecutive paragraphs? In the same speech? In consecutive speeches?

I can't help noting no one has addressed the point I made earlier that whenever -- without exception -- any Bush administration official has been asked if they believe Iraq was involved in 9-11, they have always immediately and unequivocally answered no.

Imagine that! All that is necessary to completely deflate this oh-so-carefully crafted Rovian subliminal mind game cleverly and painstakingly constructed around secret code words is for some reporter to ask a direct question point blank and accurately record the answer. But even that isn't enough for the sufferers of BDS. They prefer to ignore the direct answers given to unambiguous questions and instead painstakingly sift and parse and wrench out of context tangential comments in an attempt to show that some sort of brainwashing is going on.

Phred


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Phred]
    #5061107 - 12/14/05 06:25 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

So now it is OK to call a poster deranged? Or just you can do that?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Swami]
    #5061214 - 12/14/05 07:36 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I have called no poster deranged.

As is usual when you are caught unable to defend your position, you dodge the legitimate rebuttals and instead attempt to derail the thread into irelevancies. Don't think it goes unnoticed by the regulars of this forum accustomed to more rigorous debate. Your choice, of course.

The topic of this thread is Learyfan's claim that Cheney's statement (which he took out of context and misquoted to boot) is an example of Cheney blaming Iraq for 9-11. Neither Learyfan, you, nor anyone else participating in this thread has shown how Cheney's misquoted statement constitutes blaming Iraq for 9-11.

Why am I unsurprised at this turn of events?





Phred


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Phred]
    #5061255 - 12/14/05 07:54 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I have called no poster deranged.
A person suffering from a Bush Derangement Symptom (psychology source please for this because I know you would not just fabricate such an affliction) is by definition - deranged. This was directly addressed to LearyFan. This is obvious and not even thinly or clevery veiled.

Don't think it goes unnoticed by the regulars of this forum accustomed to more rigorous debate. Your choice, of course.
Please explain how the above snideness adds anything of content and how besmirching the poster applies to logical debate.

Why am I unsurprised that you would use such a tactic?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Swami]
    #5061482 - 12/14/05 09:05 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

*sigh* Can we please stay on topic and debate Cheney, Iraq, and 9/11... If I see Phred, or any other moderator abusing forum rules, I certainly will speak with them about it. Thanks.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Swami]
    #5062445 - 12/14/05 01:12 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I have called no poster deranged.
A person suffering from a Bush Derangement Symptom (psychology source please for this because I know you would not just fabricate such an affliction) is by definition - deranged. This was directly addressed to LearyFan. This is obvious and not even thinly or clevery veiled.

Don't think it goes unnoticed by the regulars of this forum accustomed to more rigorous debate. Your choice, of course.
Please explain how the above snideness adds anything of content and how besmirching the poster applies to logical debate.

Why am I unsurprised that you would use such a tactic?




Bush Derangement Syndrome is the psychotic manifestation of the PESTS neurosis http://www.alternet.org/election04/20444/

Although PESTS is an acute affliction brought about short term as a result of the victim's realization that not all voters share their opinions (see Pauline Kael syndrome at the Nixon entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Kael )BDS is rather more chronic. Manifestations of BDS include paranoia, righteous indignation and delusions of grandeur. There is a persistent inability to grasp the realization that a genito-oral fixated individual does not inhabit a particular position of power. Specific behavioural indications include, but are not limited to, misreading of statements, misrepresenting of statements, document fabrication, posting misleading thread titles, general lieing and a perverse adherence, in the face of overwhelming logic to the contrary, to an untenable position so long as it is derogatory to the Bush administration.

There is much evidence, though incomplete, that individuals susceptible to BDS are also likely to act in an infantile manner regardless of the source of their frustration. The "B" could very easily be replaced by a "G" or an "L" or even an "H". Foot-stamping and ditch-camping are common behaviours.

There is no known treatment outside of the generally applied "get a fucking job" and "stop whining you loser bitch" paradigms.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5062632 - 12/14/05 01:52 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

Bush Derangement Syndrome is the psychotic manifestation of the  PESTS neurosis http://www.alternet.org/election04/20444/

Although PESTS is an acute affliction brought about short term as a result of the victim's realization that not all voters share their opinions (see Pauline Kael syndrome at the Nixon entry  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Kael  )BDS is rather more chronic.  Manifestations of BDS include paranoia, righteous indignation and delusions of grandeur.  There is a persistent inability to grasp the realization that a genito-oral fixated individual does not inhabit a particular position of power.  Specific behavioural indications include, but are not limited to, misreading of  statements, misrepresenting of statements, document fabrication, posting misleading thread titles, general lieing and a perverse adherence, in the face of overwhelming logic to the contrary, to an untenable position so long as it is derogatory to the Bush administration.

There is much evidence, though incomplete, that individuals susceptible to BDS are also likely to act in an infantile manner regardless of the source of their frustration.  The "B" could very easily be replaced by a "G" or an "L" or even an "H".  Foot-stamping and ditch-camping are common behaviours.

There is no known treatment outside of the generally applied "get a fucking job" and "stop whining you loser bitch" paradigms.




This was pretty funny. :grin:


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Phred]
    #5063329 - 12/14/05 04:42 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ere we see the standard Libby tactic of lowering the bar.




As opposed to the righty tactic of slinging insults concerning the intelligence/loyalty/mental health of their opponents?

Lovely.

:patriot:

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Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Swami]
    #5065814 - 12/15/05 04:34 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Cheney described Iraq as "the geographic base of the terrorists who have had us under assault for many years, but most especially on 9/11."





Quote:

Phred said:
Source, please. Sounds to me like it's misquotes torn out of context from a "Meet the Press" interview Cheney gave a couple years back, but I may be mistaken.






Quote:

"Cheney: "If we're successful in Iraq, if we can stand up a good representative government in Iraq, that secures the region so that it never again becomes a threat to its neighbors or to the United States, so it's not pursuing weapons of mass destruction, so that it's not a safe haven for terrorists, now we will have struck a major blow right at the heart of the base, if you will, the geographic base of the terrorists who have had us under assault now for many years, but most especially on 9/11." [NBC, Meet the Press, 11/14/03]





:rolleyes:

Analyze this, go ahead, make it look like Cheney isn't making any relations between 911 and Iraq.


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Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: exclusive58]
    #5065827 - 12/15/05 05:03 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
As is crystal clear from Cheney's following remarks, the purpose of his statement was (...) to point out that the coalition's liberation of Iraq was not the cause of terrorism against the West.




That was the purpose of his remark? Wow, he sure has some good logical reasoning for a vice-president! :crazy2:


Here's what I think: I agree with you that Cheney didn't explicitly say that 9/11 was the cause of the war in Iraq, however, according to what he said in the post above, he does think himself that the terrorists responsible for 9/11 are related to Iraq, and therefore, this is where I agree with LF, it is no wonder that he implicitly connects the two.

If he's really super-intelligent, this could be called a pyschological maneuvering of the masses.


Quote:

Some have suggested that by liberating Iraq from Saddam Hussein, we simply stirred up a hornet's nest. They overlook a fundamental fact: We were not in Iraq on September 11th, 2001, and the terrorists hit us anyway. The reality is that terrorists were at war with our country long before the liberation of Iraq, and long before the attacks of 9/11.





Let me oversimplify this, here's what he's really saying:

Some say the war in Iraq created more terrorists.

Except we hadn't started the war in Iraq when the terrorists hit us.

So there were already terrorists way before Iraq and 9/11.



...:wtf:

Don't you see any flaws with this? doesn't it lack common logic? Wouldn't what he said sound really stupid if he used more simple terms so that everyone could truly understand him?

I can't help but to think that Cheney is master of psychological maneuvering of the masses.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: looner2]
    #5065834 - 12/15/05 05:07 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

Learyfan said:
Phred, you have to have some sort of vested financial interest in the Republican party. What is it?




I vote ban for this comment. Classless, ridiculously... more of the same.




oh no, did LF put his finger in a sensitive place?

truth hurts is what they say...



Learyfan, I've been thinking the same thing for quite awhile.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Cheney blames Iraq for 9/11.......again [Re: Learyfan]
    #5065862 - 12/15/05 05:31 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

This thread has been closed.

Reason:
What part of "Can we please stay on topic and debate Cheney, Iraq, and 9/11..." did you folks not understand? This thread is not about Phred, Looner2, Learyfan, or anybodies finances or ties to a political party.

*click*

Edit: Moderators... if you feel there is more discussion for this topic, feel free to unlock this thread.

Edited by Seuss (12/15/05 06:02 AM)

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