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 Ellis Dee
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Registered: 06/29/01
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 federal dollars to fund "gay fisting" lessons etc 
#503027 - 12/28/01 02:33 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Pelosi Defends Controversial AIDS Prevention Group
By John Rossomando
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
December 26, 2001
(CNSNews.com) - Incoming House Democratic Whip Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) is defending a San Francisco AIDS group that members of Congress, the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) and even AIDS activists have criticized for using federal tax dollars to sponsor "obscene" sex programs.
San Francisco's STOP AIDS Project came under scrutiny in Washington, through the efforts of Michael Petrelis, an HIV positive San Francisco homosexual AIDS activist. Petrelis claimed the STOP AIDS Project was using federal dollars to fund seminars on homosexual "fisting," sado-masochism, and homosexual flirting.
Petrelis' activism spurred this week's decision by Congress to pass a non-binding resolution calling for HHS to audit all federally funded AIDS programs. His activism also prompted HHS Inspector General Janet Rehnquist to write a letter to Secretary of Health and Human Services Tommy Thompson, in which she labeled the STOP AIDS Project seminars "obscene" and "not in agreement with CDC guidelines."
"We determined that materials from the project's workshops providing information on HIV/AIDS prevention did not fully comply with the cooperative agreement and other CDC guidelines," Rehnquist wrote.
The project's "sexually explicit advertisements" also could be construed to directly encourage sexual activity, are obscene, and thus not in compliance with CDC guidelines, the letter stated.
"For, example two of the primary goals of the Great Sex Workshop are to examine ways of making and keeping sex safe, erotic, fun, and satisfying," Rehnquist wrote. "The course appears to include information about HIV prevention, but it also appears to directly promote sexual activity, which is not consistent with CDC's basic principles."
Pelosi fired back at the Inspector General and her Republican colleagues with her own letter to Thompson, claiming that Rehnquist erred in her appraisal of the STOP AIDS Project.
"I believe the report seriously mischaracterizes the work of this unique community-based organization and ask that potential punitive measures against STOP AIDS Project be set aside in favor of strengthening technical assistance from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to this and other HIV prevention," Pelosi wrote.
According to Pelosi, the STOP AIDS Project provides a critical service in San Francisco because it is "the only community-based organization in San Francisco with a specific mission to prevent HIV among gay and bisexual men." She also claims the STOP AIDS Project's seminars are not obscene.
"The report issued by the Office of the Inspector General makes several questionable claims about the work of Stop AIDS Project and the use of HIV prevention funds in San Francisco. Specifically, the report claims that CDC guidelines on AIDS-related materials, issued on June 15, 1992, were violated because materials used for workshops, in the opinion of the IG, directly encouraged sexual activity and were 'obscene'," Pelosi wrote.
"However, the workshop materials in question were focused on HIV prevention activities and included information about the potentially harmful effects of promiscuous sexual activity," she stated.
According to Pelosi, the STOP AIDS Project's programs comply with local standards, and are therefore in compliance with CDC rules that make program funding conditional on local standards.
"[The] Stop AIDS Project provides vital health information to gay and bisexual men in my community," she wrote. "For nearly twenty years, Stop AIDS Project has been an example for HIV educators nationwide, and its mission continues to be essential in responding to the HIV/AIDS epidemic in San Francisco and across the country."
Kevin Nuttall, an HIV-positive AIDS activist and associate of Petrelis said, "I think she (Pelosi) is going out on a limb here."
Nuttall charges that groups such as the STOP AIDS Project engage in dishonest bookkeeping practices, mixing their federal money with funds from other sources to conduct programs many people find objectionable.
"The problem here from my experience is that there is absolutely no oversight on the local level," Nuttall said. "The thing people do not realize is that there is a bureaucratic loophole going in and going out."
According to Nuttall, Pelosi and the STOP AIDS Project have a vested interest in keeping things the way they are. He believes Pelosi is trying to muddy the waters by turning the STOP AIDS Project question into a states' rights issue rather than a question of an improper use of federal dollars.
The STOP AIDS Project could not be reached for comment.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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Ellis Dee
Archangel
Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
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 Re: federal dollars to fund [Re: Ellis Dee]
#503028 - 12/28/01 02:36 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Stop aids project can be seen at
http://www.stopaids.org/
try their interactive game... Catch the sperm..
this is definitely educational.
Your tax dollars at work! :)
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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 Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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 Re: federal dollars to fund [Re: Ellis Dee]
#503192 - 12/28/01 10:41 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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welcome back..i thought you were gone forever?
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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isis
addict
Registered: 05/16/01
Posts: 484
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Re: federal dollars to fund [Re: Innvertigo]
#503325 - 12/28/01 01:32 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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So are you for or against federal dollars being used for the prevention of HIV or other sexuality transmitted diseases? I have personally attended a seminar very similar to the one stated above. Simply stating that they are teaching about fisting is a misrepresentation of what is going on. During these HIV prevention classes they teach you all kinds of shocking stuff. I was a bit shocked when they started to pass out dildos, fake vaginas,etc. I'm sure I turned red. These classes do need to be explicit. Talking about fisting may seem shocking, but it is necessary. Truth be told, many people engage in these activities. It would not not go along way in HIV prevention to pretend people do not engage in these activities.So, these classes need to be real. Most of these classes do not only teach about safe fisting,but safe sex in general. It should not be an issue of what some moral people consider to be appropriate sex. We need to address the real issues.What people are really doing. Otherwise you will not be effective. If you really want to prevent the spread of disease, you have to be honest and teach whatever the hell needs to be taught. Even if it seems gross or inappropriate to some.
Unfortunatelly, homosexual "fisting," sado-masochism can be high risk activities. Let's take the homosexual aspect out. There are many hetero folks that engage in fisting and sado-masachism. Are these activities still obsence if straight people engage in them? Though they maybe clasified as obscene activities to many, it would be foolish not to provide money and programs to prevent the spread of HIV in that group of people. In the end, if the goverment doesn't provide the money to prevent HIV in all people, they may have pick up the tab for their medical care. The medical cost of HIV is tremendous. So, I guess it will just have to pick. Pay for prevention or pay for the cost of the disease.Personally, it makes no sence to me to pay for the cost of the illness to me if it can be prevented.
Since we are on the HIV topic, I feel the same about needle exchanges. The government will not allow them because of morality issues. Please!!!! It doens't want to be seen as encouraging drug use.Then they pay millions of dollars a year to treat HIV and hepatitis cases caused by the sharing of needles. Studies in Europe show that needle exchanges work to reduce the rate of HIV and hepatitis transmission. Again, it makes no sence to me. The government needs to get of the moral high horse and face the reality of life. People do drugs and that is not going to change. Safe yourself some money and prevent the disease in the first palce. That is where I stand.
Edited by isis (12/28/01 02:26 PM)
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: federal dollars to fund [Re: isis]
#503387 - 12/28/01 03:25 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm sure you were refering to RAIL_GUN and not me....i've had this argument before and i just don't have the energy...i'm tired
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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isis
addict
Registered: 05/16/01
Posts: 484
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Re: federal dollars to fund [Re: Innvertigo]
#503415 - 12/28/01 04:09 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yeah, I was asking rail gun. Sorry you are tired. I have never read your views on the above. My views are affected by the fact that Iam in the healthcare industry. My aim is to prevent disease. I don't want to argue with anyone. I just see the end result of many diseases. Ideally, one would like to think that people would just stay away from risky behavior, but the reality of life is different. Doesn't work in the real world. I'm not refering to you innvertigo, just in general. I say do all you can. All of it. Teach people not to engage in risky behavior,but also teach them how to protect themselves if they do engage.
Innvertigo, I can't even guess where you stand on this issue. You seem to be pretty conservative in your views, but then you turn around and surprise me sometimes.(only sometimes)
I take acommon sense view with most thing. Keep our society as healthy as possible.While at he same time, keeping you cost down. Prevention is much cheaper the treament of diseases. Also, much less disruptive to society as a whole.
So, if the above group has some thing going on in which they are really just teaching people to have fun fisting, I would be against federal money being used for it.If however, they are teaching how to have safe fisting practices in an effort to combat the spread of the HIV virus, I see nothing wrong with it.
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Ellis Dee
Archangel
Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
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Re: federal dollars to fund [Re: isis]
#503447 - 12/28/01 04:52 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Isis, I'm not against HIV prevention. I'm against government funding for perversion. As far as I'm concerned the government has no place in the bedrooms of the nation... That is not the mission of the feds...
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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isis
addict
Registered: 05/16/01
Posts: 484
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Re: federal dollars to fund [Re: Ellis Dee]
#503960 - 12/29/01 06:34 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Still, if teaching to to be safely perverted cuts down on the HIV rates then I say teach. It will safe government dollars in the long run. The fact is that the government will have to pay for something either way. Even if it doesn't pay for the classes. It will still get stuck with paying for the treatment of the HIV infection and the medicines.
The average lifetime cost of treating one HIV infected person is estimated at $155,000.That figure maybe alot higher now with the protease inhibitors. I understand the perversion arguement. I also understand that many people feel that morally the government should not pay for perversions. However,when you look at the cost of healthcare vs prevention cost, it makes no financial sence. I'm just thinking dollars and cents here.
Iam not personally into fisting, but if teaching how to do it safely prevents one person from contrating HIV, the government will have saved $154,800. (If it even cost 200 for those classes.)Multiply that by a number of people.
So, the question is are we trying to not use government money because of the money involved or because of morals. If it is because you do not want your money wasted on such things, then you are still better of investing in the classes.It is much cheaper that way. If it is a moral issue, then I cannot defend that.
I do agree that the feds do not belong in our bedrooms. So, can state money be used in your views.
Edited by isis (12/29/01 06:36 AM)
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Ellis Dee
Archangel
Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
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Re: federal dollars to fund [Re: isis]
#503964 - 12/29/01 06:39 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't think the government should pay for aids treatments except for infants born with the disease because it's not their fault. People should take responsibility for their own actions instead of trying to rely on the federal government to solve all their problems they brong on themselves.
No one gets AIDs if they don't want or deserve it except for a few doctors and infants born with it. These perverted homos choose to get AIDs and they should take responsibility for their own choices and actions...
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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MokshaMan
enthusiast
Registered: 03/12/01
Posts: 280
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Re: federal dollars to fund [Re: isis]
#504036 - 12/29/01 11:23 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Maybe I missed something, but doesn't the US government not have a federal health care plan? Doesn't this mean that they shouldn't be paying for people with HIV to begin with? I understand there are such things as Medicare and Medicade, but aren't these for retired persons? If you're retired you're not likely to get HIV anytime soon, are you? If I'm off base, and the government really has started covering health care I apologize for questioning the validity of such an argument.
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Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell
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isis
addict
Registered: 05/16/01
Posts: 484
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Re: federal dollars to fund [Re: Ellis Dee]
#504183 - 12/29/01 04:13 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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In reply to:
No one gets AIDs if they don't want or deserve it except for a few doctors and infants born with it. These perverted homos choose to get AIDs and they should take responsibility for their own choices and actions In reply to:
My dear Rail gun, you are greatly misinformed on current HIV statistics. Iam not saying this to offend you, but just to point out the facts.I don't have time to look up accurate statistic right now, but HIV is no longer a Homosexual disease.Many innocents suffer without sin. In countried such as Africa the HIV infection rate among heterosexuals is killing off the population in great numbers. Here is the US heterosexual transmission of the virus is also high among heterosexual people. Children and doctors are not the only innocent ones.
The arguement that HIV is a homosexual disease is not only outdated and incorrect, but is cruel and inhumane. Great progres has been made in the fight against HIV. HIV is a pandemic. Over 25% of new in the HIV in the US cases are comming from heterosexual woman. (From their heteroxesual partners.) In places like africa heterosexual transmission is the main route of transmission.
I have seen entire families wiped out by the HIV virus. The mother, the father, and the children.
As far as who picks up the tab here in the US, insurance companies and the government do. We do not have socialized health care, but when an individulal cannot pay for their health care, the government ends up paying.
Even if only homosexuals were affected, where is the compassion. Even, Christ himself showed compassion towards the sick. It is not for us to judge a person.
Edited by isis (12/29/01 04:15 PM)
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GabbaDj
BTH
Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,682
Loc: By The Lake
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Re: federal dollars to fund [Re: isis]
#504337 - 12/29/01 07:56 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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AIDS is a great example of our failed health care system... Aids is a sexualy transmitted desiese meaning ANYONE having sex is has the potentian of getting it... Gay men have sex with eachother MUCH more than any straight man can get some (right iris?) Like 40 to 1 times more, Its verry easy for any gay guy to get some... This creates a larger posibility for gay men to spread it amongst themselvs faster.
Add to that medical benefits for MOST companys dont cover a gay partner their is an even larger number of untreated homosexuals who are dying off in say 5 to 10 years as opposed to 10 to 30 yers like straight people..
I agree: To teatch properly you need to be honest and up front. But here is some things from the StopAids website
"Discover new ways to make friends, fall in love, find tricks or just be part of our community!
Share your thoughts and desires about dating, flirting, sucking, spanking, fucking... anything! Most importantly, learn what you need to know about safe sex in San Francisco."
"Watch this section as we create great opportunities for you to meet, hang out and hook up with other gay and bisexual men in San Francisco. "
Says nothing about support and meeting other gays with aids. Sounds more like a swing club. No straight and respectable AIDs program in the US works to serve as a meeting ground for people to get together, pick up condoms, talk sex and "hook up". I agree, these types of place can do alot of good but I dont want to see my tax dollars going to this. I want to be paying for clinics run by doctors who do counceling and instructing, not Social dinners and swing parties.
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GabbaDj
FAMM.ORG
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MokshaMan
enthusiast
Registered: 03/12/01
Posts: 280
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Re: federal dollars to fund [Re: isis]
#504623 - 12/30/01 04:18 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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>> We do not have socialized health care
Which means to me that the government shouldn't be paying for anything dealing with someone's health other than research of a cure for whatever ailement.
>> where is the compassion
While I do feel a certain sense of sorrow for the people suffering from the closest thing I will probably ever see to the black death, I don't feel terribly sorry for the people that got HIV through acts of their own. My real pain goes out to the children that are born cursed with this scourge and those who have gotten it through no fault of their own(such as blood transfussions, and to a certain extent those who had no warning that the disease existed, ie people in the early 80s). Most people in developed countries know of the risk in preforming many of the activities that lead to the contraction of HIV(how could you not, unless you have shut yourself down from the outside world?). If you know that you'll be bitten by a dog if you continuously provoke a dog, yet you continue to provoke every dog you meet I will feel a sense of sorrow for the pain you experience when you are eventually bitten. Of course, I won't feel sorry for your having been bitten since you knew there was a risk.
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Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell
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isis
addict
Registered: 05/16/01
Posts: 484
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Re: federal dollars to fund [Re: MokshaMan]
#504660 - 12/30/01 07:16 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Even though we do not have socialized healthcare,the government still dishes out miilions of dollars to pay for healthcare in the US.That is just a fact.
See the problem is that we have to stop treating HIV like it is a homosexual disease. In the US over 50% of HIV postive folks were gay males at one point. So, HIV became labelled a homosexual disease. In other countries like in africa heterosexual contact remains the number one source of HIV transmission. The highest rate of new transmissions are among heterosexual women. Let's look at some statistics:
Women are becoming increasingly affected by HIV.
Approximately 47%, or 16.4 million, of the 34.7 million adults living with HIV or AIDS worldwide are women.
Of new infections among women in the United States, CDC estimates that approximately 75 percent of women were infected through heterosexual sex and 25 percent through injection drug use. Of newly infected women, approximately 64 percent are black, 18 percent are white, 18 percent are Hispanic, and a small percentage are members of other racial/ethnic groups
During 2000, AIDS caused the deaths of an estimated 3 million people, including 1.3 million women and 500,000 children under 15.
(that is 1.8 million women and children)
Today, 36.1 million people are estimated to be living with HIV/AIDS. Of these, 34.7 million are adults. 16.4 million are women, and 1.4 million are children under 15.
An estimated 21.8 million people have died from AIDS since the epidemic began. 17.5 million were adults, including 9 million women. 4.3 million were children under 15.
HIV has become a pandemic like no other seen in history. It doesn't seem as shocking as the plague because it has done it's damage over a longer period of time. We all have to take responsibility for our actions.People that have been infected by HIV are paying the price for either their own indiscretions or someone elses. Maybe they were accidentally infected. The numbers are staggering. Imagine 22 million people dead people. I don't know out of those 22 million who was innocent or who deserved to die for their transgressions.
Anyways,I know Iam no longer talking about the fisting lessons. When talking about HIV is it good to know the facts.Predjudice,homophobia, and moral judgement only cloud the real truth about the HIV pandemic.
Edited by isis (12/30/01 07:31 AM)
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isis
addict
Registered: 05/16/01
Posts: 484
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Re: federal dollars to fund [Re: isis]
#504662 - 12/30/01 07:25 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Let me just add one more statistic for you males. The HIV epidemic in Africa has killed miilions of people. Some villages have been affected at higher rates than others. Years of studies have found that the villages that have uncircumcised males suffered higher rates of HIV than villages with circumcised males. The cause was found to be the foreskin. The foreskin has these cells that are suppose to protect the male from infection. These cells grab the bacteria or virus and carry it to the immunue system to be destroyed. Unfortunately, this is what the HIV virus wants.So, males with a foreskin have a 60% higher change of becomming infected with HIV. Likewise, circumcision decreases the risk of HIV by 60%.
Edited by isis (12/30/01 07:28 AM)
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Ellis Dee
Archangel
Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
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Re: federal dollars to fund [Re: isis]
#504664 - 12/30/01 07:29 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Isis, the fact remain that AIDs is a homosexual disease and homosexuals were in fact responsible for spreading this plague through out North America. Homosexuals still have a disproportionatly high rate of new infections. And negros spread the disease around through homosexual sex in prison then they get out of lock up and infect their negro women and white women the mix with them.
People choose to participate in activity that puts them at risk for AIDs infection. Let them suffer the consequesces of their actions and die as is their fate instead of trying to cure them and prolong their suffering and giving them more time to infect others.
If you don't want to get AIDs remember a few things:
1. Don't share needles.
2. Your ass is an exit not an entrance.
3. 1 in 50 negros is HIV positive so avoid them sexually.
4. Use protection if engaging in dangerous sex acts.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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isis
addict
Registered: 05/16/01
Posts: 484
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Re: federal dollars to fund [Re: Ellis Dee]
#504666 - 12/30/01 07:33 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well, that pretty much says it all. You sound like a class A biggot. No point in trying to educated the close minded.
Edited by isis (12/30/01 07:49 AM)
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World Spirit
PNW
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
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Re: federal dollars to fund [Re: Ellis Dee]
#504669 - 12/30/01 07:50 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Deleted by admin
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GabbaDj
BTH
Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,682
Loc: By The Lake
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Re: federal dollars to fund [Re: World Spirit]
#504689 - 12/30/01 08:55 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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AIDS is the new hotbed of corruption in the Not For Profit world... Out of the BILLIONS of dollars going to AIDS eduication groups their are hundreds of millions wasted on groups like this... They should not be using MY money to fund social gatherings so that gay men can get to know one another under the falce pretence of AIDS eduication. Just because they get together and talk about how to do it safely their still just getting together to fuck one another... I know LOTS of gay people and Im from the SanFrancisco area so I know first hand just how sexualy active 90% of them are and their is no doubt in my mind that they are using this Non-Profit group in the wrong way.
Ever see the movie Philidelphia? GOOD MOVIE..
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GabbaDj
FAMM.ORG
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Ellis Dee
Archangel
Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
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Re: federal dollars to fund [Re: isis]
#504706 - 12/30/01 09:39 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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No isis, I'm not a bigot. That's just a convenient way for you to label me so that you can discount everything I say as the raving of a bigot... Everything I said is true. New infections of homosexuals and negros are disproportionatly high from other segments of the population.
isis, do you support this gay swing club in san fran our tax dollars are paying for? You weren't clear on that.
enter, why is what I said racist? Is it because I don't pretend there aren't any differences? New HIV infection rates among negros are very high compared to caucasians and asians. I think a good way to explain that is that negros make up 50% of the prison population and they get AIDs in prison where they don't use protection in the shower room... They get out and spread it around. Makes sense to me...
Take care
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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