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Ped
Interested In Your Brain
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 5,494
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Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother
#5021859 - 12/06/05 03:29 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Or more simply put, you do not need sex for your health and wellbeing. A sexually liberated person realizes this.
A common idea is that human beings are essentially the same as animals, and that any suggestion to the contrary is merely another manifestation of the erroneous aggrandization of human beings which has been at the root of our negative impact on the world. Following in short step with this idea is another idea which says that because animals are absolutely dependent on sexual contact for their own continuation, and since their own continuation is synonymous with their success, we too must be dependent on sexual contact for our success and, by extension, our happiness.
But none of this is true at all. There is very clear and considerable gap between a human beings and the next most similar species. The same cannot be said about any other comparison between species. One of the distinctions to be made between human beings and animals is that neither our success or our happiness depend on our sexual prolificacy.
For the sake of simplicity, we can leave aside the fact that we're now fully equipped to propagate our species in a laboratory, and we can acknowledge the abiding truth that the continuation of the human species does depend on sexual intercourse. Even in light of this fact, it is still true that our happiness does not depend on our sexual output. This is because our happiness as individuals and our success as a species are not related. We are very successful as a species, and yet we do not know how to be happy. We have perfect conditions as human beings -- all of our external needs are met. Yet still we are miserable. This clearly shows that our happiness does not depend on external conditions such as the availability of sex partners.
Our happiness and our sexual activity are related only inasmuch as we believe them to be related. A person can be healthy, functional, well-adjusted, and most importantly happy, without ever engaging in any kind of sexual contact. They can be this way even without a vauge interest in sex. In fact, such people, if properly motivated, are often happier and healthier than those who equate at least part of their happiness to the quality of their sex life. This is because human sexual contact is a very complicated affair which very often leads to problems. When we invest our happiness in something problematic, our happiness will decrease.
Another common idea along these same lines is that happiness is connected with the full satisfaction of our biological needs and urges. Because sex is a natural biological impulse, if that impulse is left unanswered this means we are unhealthy and therefore unhappy. This idea is also completely wrong. Our body is like a vehicle; it has many features, and carries us here and there according to our wishes. If we do not use every feature that has come with our automobile, such as the sunroof, nobody thinks this is madness. In the same way, it is not unnatural or in the slightest bit improper not to take advantage of one of our body's many features.
Celibacy is not insane. It is a lifestyle choice. And for many people, it is a very correct and enlightened choice.
Am I attacking sex? Am I saying that sex is for low-lifes, or for unenlightened people? No. I am challenging this pervasive assumption that sex is a facet of our lives which must be fulfilled for us to be happy, healthy people. It is simply not true. The extent to which our sex life determines our happiness is directly proportionate to our belief that one is intrinsic to the other. If we can uproot this belief -- and that's all it is, a belief -- we achieve a very special and very meaningful kind of sexual freedom. If we can stop desiring other's bodies, we are truly and profoundly free to enjoy their company, be it sexual company or otherwise.
-------------------- Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace
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WoodsCall
own it
Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 1,486
Loc: eye of the beerholder
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Ped]
#5022228 - 12/06/05 07:17 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Excellent post!
Many people think I am crazy for not wanting to be in a relationship, which to most, ultimately entails sex. Nor am I promiscuous. I just don't crave sexual contact; It is not necessary for my well-being. I do not feel enlightened by being ceiebant, it's just a choice made recently with which I am very pleased I wonder how long it will last...
I would love to hear some debate on this!
--------------------
Live free or die.
Edited by WoodsCall (12/06/05 07:49 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Ped]
#5022252 - 12/06/05 07:37 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Comming from a culture that equates sex with guilt, shame, fear etc, it's a hard call to make I think. Most people never have a truly satisfying sexual experience on the spiritual plane much less the physical one. It would be quite necessary under these conditions to look for an escape clause (celibacy). Sex energy is spiritual energy or life force energy if you will. It can be used for many things I think. But as the band Genesis once sang "you can't get out of it, until you get into it" (from "The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway" a rock opera that explores this very subject).
So without first experiencing the fullness of a healthy sexual experience it might be premature to put it aside in favor of another spiritual pathway. If you run from sex because you are disfunctional in that area it is quite different than giving it up out of choice.
In this culture we are not really ready for the most part to explore the spiritual aspects (tantra) of sex. So for most all it is still spiritual work to be explored on that elusive journey to "happiness".
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
Rhizome
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Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: WoodsCall]
#5022306 - 12/06/05 08:03 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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I haven't had sex in 2 years. While I can't exactly say that this was a conscious choice, I can honestly say that it's not a big deal to me. Though I certainly like sex, I don't like doing the shit so many guys go through to try and get it. The hardest thing for me is just the peer pressure. People act like I'm supposed to feel bad about a 2-year "slump." And sometimes this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, as I sometimes find myself wishing to get laid just so I can say I did. But then I come to my senses and realize I'm better than that, and that I don't need the approval of others. There have been a few times in this time where I came close to having sex, but then later was glad that I didn't. I want the next time I have sex to be special. I want that next girl to really mean something to me. Until then, I'm perfectly happy just to keep myself company, and hopefully someday I'll find a woman who loves and respects me as much as I love and respect myself.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Silversoul]
#5022318 - 12/06/05 08:09 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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This is exactly what I'm talking about. Sex being so problematic for so many reasons, sometimes we choose to forgo it for awhile or if the problems seem insurmountable, forever. The problem isn't with sex itself, it's with our cultural attitudes towards it,etc.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (12/06/05 08:10 AM)
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exclusive58
illegal alien
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Icelander]
#5022347 - 12/06/05 08:26 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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I wonder where our culture ever got the idea that sex is supposed to bring us happiness?
I've been realizing recently how it is much more important to share emotions and feelings than to share physical pleasure.
And I have no doubt that once a healthy emotional relationship is founded, it leads to better sexual relationships. I just have to find that special woman, like Paradigm, and finding is the hardest part. The girl doesn't just fall on your lap from the sky, you've got to search for her!
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dorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: exclusive58]
#5022437 - 12/06/05 09:09 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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No need to search. Just be kind, and look towards the sky.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: dorkus]
#5022464 - 12/06/05 09:18 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Right! It was when I truly gave up the search for that perfect partner that she showed up.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: exclusive58]
#5022479 - 12/06/05 09:23 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
and finding is the hardest part. The girl doesn't just fall on your lap from the sky, you've got to search for her!
Think on this. Many great people come to us and pass us by because we ourselves are not ready for what they have to offer us. It is being ready that is by far the hardest part. Our ego is always saying we are cool and ready to handle that great relationship. But when we get it we (and sometimes our partner) fall flat, because of all of our addictions and unresolved conflicts. When we are out and looking we imagine how that relationship will look but when it comes it doesn't fit our unskillful vision and so we say this isn't it and let it go. This is all from my personal experience and so
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Solutarch
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Ped]
#5022615 - 12/06/05 10:00 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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We are physical beings (I am not saying that we are not spiritual), I like being a physical being, I enjoy sexual stimulation and see no rational reason to stop enjoying it (short of a physical disability). The joy of sex is a wonderful component of existence and can be an intensely spiritual experience. Sex is good for your prostate (as long as your partner doesn't have some wayward microbes). You don't even need a partner, masturbation is clean, void of BS, and you can go to sleep right away. I think Icelander has a good take on this sex stuff.
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Deviate
newbie
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Solutarch]
#5022900 - 12/06/05 11:07 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Solutarch said: We are physical beings (I am not saying that we are not spiritual), I like being a physical being, I enjoy sexual stimulation and see no rational reason to stop enjoying it (short of a physical disability). The joy of sex is a wonderful component of existence and can be an intensely spiritual experience. Sex is good for your prostate (as long as your partner doesn't have some wayward microbes). You don't even need a partner, masturbation is clean, void of BS, and you can go to sleep right away. I think Icelander has a good take on this sex stuff.
i dissagree, i think you do need a partner. for me at least, masturbation is not the same thing at all and it's never spiritual. the first time i had sex i remember feeling connected to all life and the euphoria and feeling of spiritual energy lasted well after the sex was finished . masturbation has never made me feel connected to anything and the pleasure stops the moment the orgasm ends.
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Solutarch
Satan Claws
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Deviate]
#5023271 - 12/06/05 12:34 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Sorry for the confusion, but I did not mean to imply that masturbation in and of itself is spiritual (as most people conceive of the term), that sentence came after the part about sex being good for your prostate. Then again, I do find that all existence has aspects of the spiritual in it, the spirit resides and is manifest in the material. The material/spiritual dichotomy is an artifact of our mode of thinking, of the human tendency to atomize and classify concepts to facilitate understanding. In my view, the material and spiritual are only separate conceptually. Sex can be an intensely spiritual experience with the right person and/or the right conditions. Sometimes, masturbation is better than sex with the wrong person and/or the wrong conditions with the right person.
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Solutarch]
#5023399 - 12/06/05 01:08 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
But none of this is true at all
IME, anyone who claims truth (on a philosophical and spiritual level) is trying to sell you something.
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Ped
Interested In Your Brain
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 5,494
Loc: Canada
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Solutarch]
#5023508 - 12/06/05 01:31 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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>> So without first experiencing the fullness of a healthy sexual experience it might be premature to put it aside in favor of another spiritual pathway. If you run from sex because you are disfunctional in that area it is quite different than giving it up out of choice.
Thanks for this important point.
>> I enjoy sexual stimulation and see no rational reason to stop enjoying it
Well it depends upon a person's intentions in how they relate to others. While sex can indeed be a very powerful and connective spiritual experience, ultimately the spiritual benefits of sexual contact are limited, because we are limited beings. If our spiritual aim requires us to transcend some of our current limitations, and if sexual contact obstrucs us in that effort, then of course we should choose celibacy. If we have no such spiritual aims, however, then with a happy and watchful mind we should continue with our present lifestyle.
-------------------- Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
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Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Ped]
#5023625 - 12/06/05 01:48 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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I suggest we start a "Get Ped Laid Fund" and buy/rent him a hooker for his birthday.
PM me for where to send donations.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Divided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Swami]
#5023797 - 12/06/05 02:14 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think I am too socialized to be a succesfull celibate person. No thing in itself will provide happiness, but I know that if I don't eat or drink water I feel like crap. It takes a very strong mind and deep contentment to be happy while denying your bodily and emotional impulses.
I feel like it is kind of overblown in our society and people make the whole thing unessesarily complicated, but it certainly does FEEL like a necessity to me. Maybe if I get involved with a few hundred hedonistic orgies I'll get bored and it won't matter anymore, but right now being celibate sucks.
-------------------- 1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..." 2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..." 3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."
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Solutarch
Satan Claws
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Ped]
#5023818 - 12/06/05 02:17 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ped said: >> I enjoy sexual stimulation and see no rational reason to stop enjoying it
Well it depends upon a person's intentions in how they relate to others.
What? My point is that sex is enjoyable, and there is no reason to stop having it. It does not interfere with one's spiritual growth. If it does, it is the fault of the individual, it is not the act of sex.
Quote:
While sex can indeed be a very powerful and connective spiritual experience, ultimately the spiritual benefits of sexual contact are limited, because we are limited beings.
By that measure, ANYTHING that you engage in is limited in spiritual benefits... so what?
Quote:
If our spiritual aim requires us to transcend some of our current limitations, and if sexual contact obstrucs us in that effort, then of course we should choose celibacy.
It is not sexual contact that obstructs us in our efforts, this is placing the blame on a perfectly natural act which is a gift that is part and parcel of creation. Spirit has been given form and it is in your flesh as well as your thoughts. The material is an expression of the forces that form all of us (E=mc2). There is no conflict between the material and spiritual except that which you choose to believe as a limiting concept and to maintain in your own mind.
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Solutarch
Satan Claws
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Swami]
#5023851 - 12/06/05 02:22 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said: I suggest we start a "Get Ped Laid Fund" and buy/rent him a hooker for his birthday.
You are very astute.
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Deviate
newbie
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Solutarch]
#5023857 - 12/06/05 02:23 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Solutarch said: Sorry for the confusion, but I did not mean to imply that masturbation in and of itself is spiritual (as most people conceive of the term), that sentence came after the part about sex being good for your prostate. Then again, I do find that all existence has aspects of the spiritual in it, the spirit resides and is manifest in the material. The material/spiritual dichotomy is an artifact of our mode of thinking, of the human tendency to atomize and classify concepts to facilitate understanding. In my view, the material and spiritual are only separate conceptually. Sex can be an intensely spiritual experience with the right person and/or the right conditions. Sometimes, masturbation is better than sex with the wrong person and/or the wrong conditions with the right person.
i agree that everything is spiritual and the dichotomy is in the mind but what i am saying is that while sex can be an intensely connecting experience (meaning it helps us to transcend this mental dichotomy) i have not found this to be so with masturbation. i consider sex and masturbation to be seperate things and not equal to eachother.
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Deviate
newbie
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Swami]
#5023865 - 12/06/05 02:25 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said: I suggest we start a "Get Ped Laid Fund" and buy/rent him a hooker for his birthday.
PM me for where to send donations.
am i the only one who is incredibly turned off by hookers?
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Deviate]
#5023913 - 12/06/05 02:32 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
Swami said: I suggest we start a "Get Ped Laid Fund" and buy/rent him a hooker for his birthday.
PM me for where to send donations.
am i the only one who is incredibly turned off by hookers?
what do you mean by hookers? the ones you give a crack rock to, or the ones you give a finger rock to?
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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Divided_Sky]
#5023953 - 12/06/05 02:41 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Divided_Sky said: I think I am too socialized to be a succesfull celibate person. No thing in itself will provide happiness, but I know that if I don't eat or drink water I feel like crap. It takes a very strong mind and deep contentment to be happy while denying your bodily and emotional impulses.
I feel like it is kind of overblown in our society and people make the whole thing unessesarily complicated, but it certainly does FEEL like a necessity to me. Maybe if I get involved with a few hundred hedonistic orgies I'll get bored and it won't matter anymore, but right now being celibate sucks.
i believe we all must learn to deny our impulses because if, for instance, i followed every biological impulse i would try to have sex with every girl i found attractive. obviously to get along in society we must learn to not always do what feels the most good biologically, otherwirse id never have made it out of bed this morning. my point is that i think happiness lies more in our ability to control or not be bothered by our impulses rather than in the satisfaction of every impulse. for example you can't have sex every time you see an attractive member of the opposite sex, you can't sleep late every morning, you can't not do your homework every night, etc but you can still learn to be happy. you're never going to be able to satisfy every impulse so if that's what your happiness depends on youre never going to acheive complete happiness.
i am not currently having sex with anyone or even masturbating and yet i am happy, so it is certainly not a necessity. it is only a necessity for you because you have set it up as a condition for your happiness and refuse to allow yourself to be happy without it. if you let go of these ideas i believe you would see it is not a necessity for you either. it is much different from eating or drinking which are much more important in my opinion.
Edited by Deviate (12/06/05 02:45 PM)
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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5023960 - 12/06/05 02:43 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
psilocyberin said:
Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
Swami said: I suggest we start a "Get Ped Laid Fund" and buy/rent him a hooker for his birthday.
PM me for where to send donations.
am i the only one who is incredibly turned off by hookers?
what do you mean by hookers? the ones you give a crack rock to, or the ones you give a finger rock to?
umm, crack i guess?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Deviate]
#5023989 - 12/06/05 02:50 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
Solutarch said: Sorry for the confusion, but I did not mean to imply that masturbation in and of itself is spiritual (as most people conceive of the term), that sentence came after the part about sex being good for your prostate. Then again, I do find that all existence has aspects of the spiritual in it, the spirit resides and is manifest in the material. The material/spiritual dichotomy is an artifact of our mode of thinking, of the human tendency to atomize and classify concepts to facilitate understanding. In my view, the material and spiritual are only separate conceptually. Sex can be an intensely spiritual experience with the right person and/or the right conditions. Sometimes, masturbation is better than sex with the wrong person and/or the wrong conditions with the right person.
i agree that everything is spiritual and the dichotomy is in the mind but what i am saying is that while sex can be an intensely connecting experience (meaning it helps us to transcend this mental dichotomy) i have not found this to be so with masturbation. i consider sex and masturbation to be seperate things and not equal to eachother.
Most people know nothing about tantric masturbation and so cannot say if it is spiritual or not. It is part of the tantric path though. No fantasies needed, just connection to the self. (So I hear from my partner).
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ped
Interested In Your Brain
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 5,494
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Solutarch]
#5023992 - 12/06/05 02:51 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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>> What? My point is that sex is enjoyable, and there is no reason to stop having it. It does not interfere with one's spiritual growth. If it does, it is the fault of the individual, it is not the act of sex.
Some people understand spirituality differently than others. For some, the sexual act and pursuit of it can be an obstruction to their spiritual growth. There is nothing unnatural or faulty about this.
>> It is not sexual contact that obstructs us in our efforts, this is placing the blame on a perfectly natural act which is a gift that is part and parcel of creation.
No one is arguing that sex is not a perfectly natural act which, because of it's benefits, can be conceived of as an experiential "gift". The argument here is whether or not a person who turns down that gift for the sake of opening themselves to other spiritual benefits is making a mistake.
>> There is no conflict between the material and spiritual except that which you choose to believe as a limiting concept and to maintain in your own mind.
No one has suggested that the material and spiritual aspects of life are fundamentally exclusive to each other. No one has suggested that we should abandon one for the other.
For some people, the aim of celibacy is an effort to stabilize and balance their mind. When we develop sexual desire for another being and wish to copulate with them, we have apprehended reality in a way that draws distinctions between one being and another. In particular, we have conceived of one being as desirable to the exclusion of other beings who are also sexually compatiable with ourself. Those who wish to develop a more equanimical perspective may wish to abstain from sexual contact for the sake of developing a completely impartial view of other living beings. This is a kind of spiritual growth that is very beneficial. There is no error in this pursuit unless one equates their health and happiness -- be it spiritual or material health and happiness -- with their sexual prolificacy. Since no such relationship between happiness and sexual output actually exists, there is no mistake in abandoning sex for the sake of certain spiritual objectives.
I am challenging the widespread assumption that a person who chooses celibacy is inherently mistaken in their judgement. It is a fundamentalist attitude which serves no benefit.
-------------------- Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Ped]
#5024046 - 12/06/05 03:05 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Each person is free to choose or not choose to do anything they want and will learn the lessons that their choices bring. Even if the lessons are different then they imagined. Such is life.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Icelander]
#5024065 - 12/06/05 03:11 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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As I lock the front door, switch off the lights, brush my teeth, comb my hair, I find that these mundane actions are infused with my excitement and anticipation of my evening meditation.
I can already sense the movement of energy at the base of my spine. I pull my dress off over my head, the fabric's texture fully experienced by my sensitized skin. A cool breeze lifts the curtains near my bed, and strokes its silky hand along my bare skin.
I lay down on my stomach across my queen sized bed, enjoying the sensation of pressure along the front of my body. My hands stroke the smooth sheets as I snuggle into the soft mattress. My heart is pounding in my chest and in my ears. My right hand moves between my legs to caress my yoni.
The sensation of movement is electric, and my body moves as though shocked. The tiny bolts of lightning radiate outward and upward, vitalizing my inner thighs, my belly, my breasts.
I relax into the energy, breathing in slow and deep...I visualize myself being held in a lover's arms, carried safely to another place.
The breath moves energy up my spine, with a sensation of flowing warmth. Behind my closed eyelids I see a white-gold glow spreading up my body, and I can feel the progression with each deep breath. Each time tension takes hold, I breathe into it and relax, allowing the energy to circulate.
Finally, finally, energy rushes into my head and bursts through my scalp. I release a held breath with a loud moan, and feel the orgasm take my body. The pleasure is not centered around my genitals, but flowing throughout my entire body.
My muscles helplessly contract and relax, and electric pulses surge through my body. A deep relaxation resolves the orgasm, and each deep breath I take fills my chest with pleasure and warmth.
The sexual experiences I have during my Tantric meditations are some of the most intense of my life. I have had more intense Tantric orgasms during sex, including one very memorable experience of my energetic "core" expanding until my known self was reduced to a thin layer containing the energy.
IMO sex/masturbation is not spiritual in and of itself, but it is a useful method for raising energy. Once you are in touch with spiritual energy, it is possible to experience orgasms without physical contact. (AMAZING!) This seems to be the direction my Tantra practice is heading, and I am regularly astonished at my experiences.
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Deviate]
#5024066 - 12/06/05 03:12 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
psilocyberin said:
Quote:
Deviate said:
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Swami said: I suggest we start a "Get Ped Laid Fund" and buy/rent him a hooker for his birthday.
PM me for where to send donations.
am i the only one who is incredibly turned off by hookers?
what do you mean by hookers? the ones you give a crack rock to, or the ones you give a finger rock to?
umm, crack i guess?
so, your only turned off by the hookers that want Cash On Delivery, and not the ones who hold out for the diamonds and half of your shit.
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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5024102 - 12/06/05 03:21 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
psilocyberin said:
Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
psilocyberin said:
Quote:
Deviate said:
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Swami said: I suggest we start a "Get Ped Laid Fund" and buy/rent him a hooker for his birthday.
PM me for where to send donations.
am i the only one who is incredibly turned off by hookers?
what do you mean by hookers? the ones you give a crack rock to, or the ones you give a finger rock to?
umm, crack i guess?
so, your only turned off by the hookers that want Cash On Delivery, and not the ones who hold out for the diamonds and half of your shit.
at least they have less STDs.
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Deviate]
#5024107 - 12/06/05 03:23 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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not in nevada.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Ped]
#5024190 - 12/06/05 03:43 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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For some people, the aim of celibacy is an effort to stabilize and balance their mind.
It works well in the Roman Catholic Church...
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Swami]
#5024193 - 12/06/05 03:44 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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BTW, notice the happiness that I am bringing to the ladies in my picture.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Ped
Interested In Your Brain
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 5,494
Loc: Canada
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Swami]
#5024216 - 12/06/05 03:50 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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>> It works well in the Roman Catholic Church...
That is not a fair example, Pep?. The Romach Catholic church is heavily impeded by political and hierarchical concerns. Such concerns are worldly by their nature and drain the spiritual potential from religious practice. It is no surprise to me that sex scandals exist in the Catholic Church. Catholicism is a school of religious thought which is rapidly degenerating; it is parting company with God and all things spiritual. The abusive and inappropriate behavior of ordained Catholics is not intrinsically related to their vow of celibacy.
Although they may be experiencing enjoyment in the present moment, the ladies in your picture will eventually have to undergo experiences of suffering in the future. The happiness you're offering them gives them no protection from future suffering, in that it does not lead them to a state of lasting contentment and peace. As such, it cannot be said that you are offering them true happiness, merely that you are giving them pleasure.
Although I must admit that for a skunk, you're pretty damn sexy.
-------------------- Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace
Edited by Ped (12/06/05 03:57 PM)
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Swami]
#5024289 - 12/06/05 04:08 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said: BTW, notice the happiness that I am bringing to the ladies in my picture.
i thought that was the wine and that they were laughing at what is under the hat....
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Ped]
#5024419 - 12/06/05 04:29 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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IMO no one can "give" you happiness or pleasure.
Others provide us with input, and it is up to us to determine our response. Whether that response is negative or positive has more to do with our attitude than any intrinsic quality of the input. Some types of input are more likely to receive a positive or negative response, but that response is not assured by the input.
As to whether the response is "lasting" or "impermanent"--there are no lasting responses to experience. Everything changes. Neither hedonistic pleasure nor monk-like abstention will produce a permanent response to experience. Even the most centered person can only hope to create a lasting intention for their responses.
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Solutarch
Satan Claws
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Posts: 189
Loc: The South Pole
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Ped]
#5024475 - 12/06/05 04:39 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ped said: No one has suggested that the material and spiritual aspects of life are fundamentally exclusive to each other. No one has suggested that we should abandon one for the other.
But it has been suggested that celibacy is needed for spiritual growth.
Quote:
When we develop sexual desire for another being and wish to copulate with them, we have apprehended reality in a way that draws distinctions between one being and another.
So? Maybe you should learn to accept reality.
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In particular, we have conceived of one being as desirable to the exclusion of other beings who are also sexually compatiable with ourself.
We? It is a mistake to assume that your view and your attitudes are shared by everyone, they are not. To conceive of others being desirable does not mean that a person is excluding anyone else, though this may be the way you are wired.
Quote:
Those who wish to develop a more equanimical perspective may wish to abstain from sexual contact for the sake of developing a completely impartial view of other living beings.
Equanimical? As in composed, an evenness of mind? Complete impartiality is a chimera, by virtue of existence within the universe we all have our own views. I found it useful to first learn to resign myself to reality, accepting the vast differences in gifts, situations and burdens that all beings have as their own.
Quote:
This is a kind of spiritual growth that is very beneficial.
Debatable. Perhaps what you are really concerned with is freeing yourself from emotional attachments with those you would have sex with. It is possible for some of us to love others without jealousy, and to love more than one person. Though it may be difficult for you it is by no means necessary for everyone who desires spiritual growth. Later along your path, you may be able to leave behind such things and can have both a continuing spiritual journey and sex.
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Since no such relationship between happiness and sexual output actually exists,
How do you presume to speak for everyone? There are indeed individuals who experience genuine happiness from a healthy and active sex life.
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there is no mistake in abandoning sex for the sake of certain spiritual objectives.
There may be if you're wrong.
Quote:
I am challenging the widespread assumption that a person who chooses celibacy is inherently mistaken in their judgement. It is a fundamentalist attitude which serves no benefit.
Sort of like the fundamentalist attitude and questionable assumption that choosing celibacy helps one grow spiritually?
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Veritas]
#5024493 - 12/06/05 04:42 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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The thing about sex is that to some people it is confirmation that the hold a desired personage. people want them and are excited to share something creative with them. The biological implications are in mine mind very clear. Sex is and was designed as a way to perpetuate cells. If someone wants to attach their half a a dna strucutre to yours, it seems they might be saying that they are confortable with the idea that your half will help their half make it confortably in the world, whatever that confort is. It could be a nobel prize or fedutiary success. It seems wrong to imply that sex isn't healty. to some it is. Also there is a study that people who nut three times or more a week have a 72% higher chance of not dieing from heart disease. I was well pleased to see this!!!!
-------------------- Asshole
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Ped]
#5024553 - 12/06/05 04:52 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ped said: But none of this is true at all. There is very clear and considerable gap between a human beings and the next most similar species.
Less than half a percent doesn't seem like a considerable gap.
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque
Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 2,415
Loc: ethereality
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#5024573 - 12/06/05 04:58 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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.4% I animal, nasty harry stupid ass animal. Sex is so nice. Do people really mean to be celibate. Is is a preemptive measure taking for those who cant get laid. I mean I bet celibate folks still think about sex as often as though who do fuck. I can't imagine true disinterest in sex.. I have some friends who arefor lack of better word asexual, I don't mean physically but haven't been laid in long time, still they must think about the beauty and joys of sex. Please some tell me about your experience with celibacy cause I will never ever be celibate.
thanks
-------------------- Asshole
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rwilber
Schwammel
Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 267
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
#5024596 - 12/06/05 05:05 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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nothing like a well done steak... medium rare
--------------------
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque
Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 2,415
Loc: ethereality
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: rwilber]
#5024604 - 12/06/05 05:06 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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red in the middle sitll bleeding, its so tasty,
-------------------- Asshole
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secretmachine
lover of mystery
Registered: 08/27/04
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Ped]
#5024617 - 12/06/05 05:08 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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yeah i gotta agree with the idea that we dont need sex, in fact its weird, this morning i was thinking about this very subject. My mind said i didnt need sex to be happy as a child, so why would i need it now? I like to look at things in the long run, what does sex get me in the long run? if its just random sex with slutty strangers, that gets me diseases. If its monogomous sex with a girlfriend, that gets me babies and mortgages. looking at it spiritually is another matter entirely. I like to see it as people needing to feel close to someone as a kind of replacement for being in touch with their own self. After i decided to listen to myself instead of trusting in other people, my need to be around other people disappered.. i can have a much deeper conversation with myself then with anyone else.
However thats not to say im not attracted to people anymore, but i deal with it differently than most folks, instead of attributing that feeling to them, i look inside for the source. as soon as i find the source within me, it becomes a part of me, and my attraction for that person fades, because i got what i needed from them in a much faster way than is normally done. Ok im rambling as usual, but maybe someone will understand me.
-------------------- --- A civilization based on authority-and-submission is a civilization without the means of self-correction. Effective communication flows only one way: from master-group to servile-group. Any cyberneticist knows that such a one-way communication channel lacks feedback and cannot behave "intelligently." the principle of authority" was the "eminently theological, metaphysical and political idea that the masses, always incapable of governing themselves, must submit at all times to the benevolent yoke of a wisdom and a justice, which in one way or another, is imposed from above." "no one should be entrusted with power, inasmuch as anyone invested with authority must . . . became an oppressor and exploiter of society."
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Ped
Interested In Your Brain
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 5,494
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: secretmachine]
#5024790 - 12/06/05 05:41 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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>> But it has been suggested that celibacy is needed for spiritual growth.
I have not said this. I have said that some people choose celibacy for their own spiritual growth, and that they are not mistaken in doing so.
>> So? Maybe you should learn to accept reality.
Our self-relative bias toward reality and relationships is not realistic and in fact runs against the grain of how things actually are.
>> We? It is a mistake to assume that your view and your attitudes are shared by everyone, they are not. To conceive of others being desirable does not mean that a person is excluding anyone else, though this may be the way you are wired.
I was describing the mechanics of perspective, not imputing my ideas on others. When we are attracted to someone sexually, and not attracted to another person sexually, we are engaged in a kind of self-relative bias. This is how things are. Would you have me believe that it's common for someone to be sexually desirous of all people equally?
>> Equanimical? As in composed, an evenness of mind? Complete impartiality is a chimera, by virtue of existence within the universe we all have our own views.
Being impartial does not mean that we all have the same opinions. It means that we do not hold one person in higher regard than another, sexually or otherwise. It is only a habit of ours to discriminate between living beings and assign value to them according to which of their characteristics best suit our own preferences. It is not a virtue of our existence within the universe. It is a mental habit that can be broken.
>> Debatable. Perhaps what you are really concerned with is freeing yourself from emotional attachments with those you would have sex with.
I am speaking of the desire for physical contact specifically.
>> How do you presume to speak for everyone?
I don't. Absolutist thinking is what I am arguing against. Why do you insist I am trying to impose celibacy on people? I've been very clear that I'm not trying to do this.
>> There are indeed individuals who experience genuine happiness from a healthy and active sex life.
It is not genuine happines in that it is not a lasting happiness. Lasting happiness does not come from external conditions. Although I say this, I do not say that a healthy and active sex life is something to be abandoned, only that some people with certain spiritual objectives may choose this route. They should not be criticized for that choice, because there is no objective basis to support such criticism.
>> Sort of like the fundamentalist attitude and questionable assumption that choosing celibacy helps one grow spiritually?
Choosing celibacy can be very helpful for people with certain spiritual aims. What is fundamentalist about this statement? People grow spiritually whether they like it or not. For some people, a healthy and active sex life is part of this process. It depends upon their current stage of growth and upon their intentions toward their spiritual life.
>> Less than half a percent doesn't seem like a considerable gap.
If we're going to limit our definition of a human being to the mere sum of his genetics, then we must also say that human beings are very similar to bananas, because we share more than three quarters of our genome with these plants as well. Because it is nonsense to compare the emotional and spiritual inclinations of human beings to bananas, it is nonsense to compare the human being to the next most similar animal in terms of genetics alone. The depth of this discussion far exceeds genetic considerations.
-------------------- Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Ped]
#5025186 - 12/06/05 07:11 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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I struggled with being celibate for years, and turned down a lot of possibilities. When, later in life, I wanted sex, my desparation chased women away. The sexual energy that accumulated during chastity seemed to attract females. I become ill if I am not in a sexual relationship. I am not the only person who feels this way. I do not mean casual, impersonal or one-night-stand sex (in all my life I have never picked up a female even during times that I wanted to. I have been picked up, given rides home, invited in and have declined the offers). Meanwhile, I have a childhood friend who spent 15 years alone, living in a rural wooded area and didn't have sex in all that time. It is a matter of emotional and sexual need. I do not have great emotional needs, but some real affection needs to be in place for me to have sex with a woman, and that translates into a relationship (at my age). Fortunately I really like, love and get along intellectually and aesthetically with my Lady.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#5025225 - 12/06/05 07:19 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Sex was listed in Maslow's hierarchy as being one of our fundamental biological needs...I tend to agree. It is attached to our health and well being in a very fundamental way.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Ped]
#5025472 - 12/06/05 08:08 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ped said: If we're going to limit our definition of a human being to the mere sum of his genetics, then we must also say that human beings are very similar to bananas, because we share more than three quarters of our genome with these plants as well. Because it is nonsense to compare the emotional and spiritual inclinations of human beings to bananas, it is nonsense to compare the human being to the next most similar animal in terms of genetics alone. The depth of this discussion far exceeds genetic considerations.
Human beings do share similarities with bananas, many of the same organelles, but this is besides the point. Homo sapiens differs only by a small amount of certian alleles to the Pan paniscus. Consequently, our behavior is very much the same. Its foolish to think the complex biological machinery of Homo sapien L. is somehow outside the realm of the other animals. We all operate according to the same principles.
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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#5025516 - 12/06/05 08:17 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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markosthegnostic, your post isn't very clear to me. are you saying you both attracted and chased away females at the same time because of your prior celebacy?
Sex was listed in Maslow's hierarchy as being one of our fundamental biological needs...I tend to agree. It is attached to our health and well being in a very fundamental way.
i think this thread was claiming that sex was not essential to our well-being, not that they had no relation. are you saying it is impossible to be well and healthy without having sex? i am not currently having sex, would you suggest i should begin searching for a partner immediately or run risk of compromising my health and well-being?
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#5025725 - 12/06/05 08:46 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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You and I kind of look alike.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Deviate]
#5026006 - 12/06/05 09:40 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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"are you saying it is impossible to be well and healthy without having sex?"
A normal sex life is part of being a psychologically sound adult. Periods of sexual inactivity are usually normal in single and married adults, but extended periods of sexual inactivity (read several years) take their toll on the psyche. Swami's example of Catholic priests experiencing problems is a good example of this problem. As one ages the desire for sex declines a little which is normal. As a 41 year old male in adequate physical condition my sexual activity is down to only once or twice a week. I consider this a healthy level.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#5026081 - 12/06/05 09:51 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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but are you saying it is impossible to be celibate and still well and healthy? preists, etc do nothing towards proving this because it only takes on counter example to show otherwirse.
Edited by Deviate (12/06/05 10:00 PM)
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Deviate]
#5026156 - 12/06/05 10:05 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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You read me correctly...being totally celibate is psychologically unhealthy. There is zero spiritual benefit to staying purely celibate in my opinion.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#5026173 - 12/06/05 10:10 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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im not asking whether you think it's healthy or beneficial, i am asking if its possible to for a person to be healthy while celebate.
and what about people like jesus that were spiritually succesful and chose celebacy? who are you to second guess their decision?
Edited by Deviate (12/06/05 10:13 PM)
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chocbruce
Learned Student
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Ped]
#5026190 - 12/06/05 10:14 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think that the best evidence of this article is people who have been abused or raped. Since they were hurt by it...they understand both points of view. Sometimes other people around them misconstrue this for not being interested. They can be very happy people, but it an uphill battle for them. This makes me very sad for anyone who's ever been used like that. Goodnight all...
-------------------- I look for answers and present ideas, but in no way shape or form endorse, or partake in, growing, or manufacture of substances, or plants, or any specie that is illegal in your neck of the woods. I do however, tear the tags off of my mattresses. Be warned.
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Ped
Interested In Your Brain
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 5,494
Loc: Canada
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#5026194 - 12/06/05 10:15 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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>> Human beings do share similarities with bananas, many of the same organelles, but this is besides the point. Homo sapiens differs only by a small amount of certian alleles to the Pan paniscus. Consequently, our behavior is very much the same. Its foolish to think the complex biological machinery of Homo sapien L. is somehow outside the realm of the other animals. We all operate according to the same principles.
I agree that the relationship between human beings and animals is very close. We possess many of the same instincts, drives, and impulses. We possess the same physical characteristics. We operate according to many of the same principles. We are each motivated in our actions to be happy and not to experience pain. However, in the context of this discussion, none of these similarities carry any significant relevance.
The complexity of human interaction far exceeds that of any animal. The mere fact that we communicate with a spoken language makes this true. The capacity and clarity of our memory makes this true. There are many traits which are uniquely human which make this issue one to be argued in the context of human beings only. There is no ground draw conclusions about the role of sex in a human being's life by comparing that human being to an animal.
>> A normal sex life is part of being a psychologically sound adult.
In the western psychological canon, part of being a psychologically sound adult includes a healthy and active sex life. However, western psychology arose within it's own cultural context. Pervasive in the culture from which western psychology arose is the assumption that sexual contact is a necessity to our health and happiness. We cannot use western psychology as a reference for this debate because western psychology derrives it's conclusions from the same assumptions which have already been challenged.
Referencing western psychology is also out of context. Western psychology has no concerns beyond maintaining individuals as productive members of a cultural society; it does not have any advanced spiritual concerns. We are speaking about celibacy as a spiritual practice.
People in the west commonly believe that an active sex life is necessary for a person to be healthy. But the extent to which this is true has entirely to do with how deeply ingrained such an assumption is. The more we equate our health and happiness with the prolificacy of our sex life, the more our health and happiness will suffer if we must go without sexual contact.
>> Swami's example of Catholic priests experiencing problems is a good example of this problem.
If it were true that celibacy possessed an inherent capacity to breed dysfunction in human beings, then all human beings who practised celibacy would experience this. There are very many healthy, happy human beings who are celibate. The healthiest, most advanced, and happiest person I have ever known has been celibate for 16 years.
The reason Catholic priests experience problems has nothing to do with their vow of celibacy, and everything to do with the severely contaminated intention behind that vow. As I have already stated, the Catholic church is heavily impeded by political and hierarchical concerns. When we take a vow of celibacy for reasons contaminated by these empty concerns, we deprive ourself of sexual contact for the sake of something which carries no rewards. Because there are no benefits, the vow loses it's integrity, and scandals such as the one's we've seen begin to appear. If someone has chosen to take a vow of celibacy with a pure and correct intention, it brings them tremendous benefits, which, in their own words: "very much exceed the benefits I'd have reaped by this time from my former sex life." This is because sexual contact by itself has no power to bring us happiness, or ensure our psychological or emotional health. Because it has no such power, it can be abstained from without consequence.
The extent to which our sexual activity has the power to make us happy is directly proportionate to the extent we believe it to be true.
-------------------- Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Deviate]
#5026288 - 12/06/05 10:31 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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"im not asking whether you think it's healthy or beneficial, i am asking if its possible to for a person to be healthy while celebate."
No, not for years at a time...it is abnormal and unhealthy.
"what about people like jesus that were spiritually succesful and chose celebacy?"
Why ask about a mythological figure with no historical authenticity. This has no bearing on the subject. Let's bring in Odin, Thor, Easter Bunny, or maybe Santa Claus.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Ped]
#5026296 - 12/06/05 10:33 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Total lifelong celibacy is extremism. Does not Buddhism (which I think you identify with) discuss the "middle way"?
"The complexity of human interaction far exceeds that of any animal."
Then let me introduce you to "intelligent design". Come on man...we are animals...nothing more or less.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Deviate
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#5026361 - 12/06/05 10:46 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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No, not for years at a time...it is abnormal and unhealthy.
you are totally ignoring my question. i am not asking whether you think celebacy is healthy, i am asking whether its possible for someone to be celebate and healthy. if not where is your evidence?
Why ask about a mythological figure with no historical authenticity. This has no bearing on the subject. Let's bring in Odin, Thor, Easter Bunny, or maybe Santa Claus.
ok then, ramana maharshi the indian sage with plenty of historical authenticity. he lived his entire adult life celebate and remained happy and healthy the entire time. as ped pointed out, if celebacy was an inherent cause of imbalance and poor health this would not have been possible.
you've provided no evidence to suggest that it is impossible to be remain psychology healthy without having sex and i believe there are numerous counter examples. so what is your claim based on?
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Deviate
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#5026372 - 12/06/05 10:48 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: Total lifelong celibacy is extremism. Does not Buddhism (which I think you identify with) discuss the "middle way"?
"The complexity of human interaction far exceeds that of any animal."
Then let me introduce you to "intelligent design". Come on man...we are animals...nothing more or less.
both my dogs are nutered and they appear perfectly healthy, in addition nutered dogs tend to live longer. if we are animals and animals can live healthy lives without sex why can't we?
my fish has never had sex either nor has he once complained or shown any signs of poor health.
Edited by Deviate (12/06/05 10:53 PM)
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Ped
Interested In Your Brain
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#5026469 - 12/06/05 11:07 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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>> Total lifelong celibacy is extremism. Does not Buddhism (which I think you identify with) discuss the "middle way"?
As a practising Buddhist, I try my best not to identify with Buddhism.
What makes it an extreme? The action or the intention? Actions possess no inherent characteristics. The potential contained within any action comes from it's intention. The intention behind celibacy is not extreme, in fact it is aimed at overcoming a pre-existing extreme view which all human beings presently abide with. That extreme view has already been explained.
From the point of view of the action, taking a vow of celibacy is an extreme, as our frame of reference is the common practise of moderate sexual exchange between people. From the point of view of the intention, which is to develop a mind of equanimity and impartial love, taking a vow celibacy leads us toward the middle way.
>> Then let me introduce you to "intelligent design". Come on man...we are animals...nothing more or less
There is no comparison to be made between the absurdity of intelligent design and the plain and simple fact that human beings can be distinguished from animals within a certain context. This is one of those contexts.
If you asked me from a purely physical standpoint "are humans different from animals", of course I'd say no. If you asked me from a developmental or evolutionary standpoint "are humans different from animals", of course I'd say no. If you asked me from an emotional, intellectual, or spiritual standpoint "are humans different from animals", I'd say "yes, glaringly".
Do you disagree that there is a gap between an individual human being's maximum capacity for intelligence and an individual animal's maximum capacity for intelligence? Take as your example the most intellectually advanced human being ever known. Now take the most intellectually advanced animal ever known and draw a comparison. Is there not a clear distinction between the two, at least from an intellectual standpoint? Substituting intellegence with emotional capacity or spiritual capacity, do you disagree with these considerations as well?
Now, of course we can reverse this contemplation and take as our examples the least advanced human being and the most advanced animal. I'm sure here we'd find at least some overlap. But that is beside the point, because generally speaking, on an intellectual, emotional, or spiritual level, there are clear and accurate distinctions to be made between human beings and animals. The topic of this thread falls within that context.
-------------------- Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Ped]
#5026997 - 12/07/05 01:27 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ped said: The complexity of human interaction far exceeds that of any animal. The mere fact that we communicate with a spoken language makes this true.
(The Bonobo is a type of Chimpanzee... which is nearly extinct )
"Bonobos passed the mirror-recognition test for self-awareness in 1994. They communicate through primarily vocal means, although the meanings of their vocalizations are not currently known; however, we do understand some of their natural hand gestures, such as their invitation to play. Two Bonobos, Kanzi and Panbanisha have been taught a vocabulary of about 400 words which they can type using a special keyboard of lexigrams (geometric symbols), and can respond to spoken sentences. Some, such as bioethicist Peter Singer, argue that these results qualify them for the same rights as humans."
Coincidently...
"Sexual intercourse plays a major role in Bonobo society... Bonobos are the only non-human apes to have been observed engaging in all of the following sexual activities: tongue kissing, face-to-face vaginal intercourse, oral sex, genital rubbing between females, and "frottage" between males."
While I would make no argument that Homo sapiens seem far, far more complex than any other organism on the planet, the phrase "uniquely human" gives me doubts. As does the phrase "unique amino acid."
This all seems rather red herring anyway, seeing as I agree with much of your point. I think a human can overcome much of his 'natural state of being' in respects to the mind and its function. Physical features we cannot really change, we cannot consciously grow another arm or leg. But, our ability to direct our lives in a voluntary manner prevents us from the robothood of many other species. Of course, we are not exempt from Pavlovian psychology or other classical conditioning, but I feel we have a greater ability to re-program our conditionings and maybe even our biologically inherited behavior. (Some of it. You don't seem to be able to think yourself out of Down syndrome, schizophrenia, or anything like that.)
I think the problem with celibacy arises when it is forced upon someone from an outside source, for instance, a sadistic Catholic God. Then, its more like sexual repression than celibacy. The person still desires to have intercourse, but because of some "higher reason" they fool themselves with or simply fear, they does not. Buddhists seem to be much better at the re-programming game than Catholics, so I wouldn't be surprised if some Buddhists lived completely happy lives without sex. They also don't have it forced down upon them by some angry Old man in the sky, it seems more like a personal path.
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Deviate
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#5027038 - 12/07/05 01:44 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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^i agree. i definitely think celebacy is bad if you desire to have sex. but if you are perfectly happy without sex and choose to be celebate, well i'd like to see someone prove that that is psychologically unhealthy. what people don't seem to understand is that even one case of a healthy celebate person disproves the notion that celebacy is always bad and there have certiainly been healthy celebate people in history. so i don't understand how people can hold onto the notion that it's always psychology unhealthy for everyone. what if someone has no desire to have sex? should they force themselves to because you say it's bad?
Edited by Deviate (12/07/05 01:45 AM)
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Sexychick
Life is what youmake it.
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Deviate]
#5027327 - 12/07/05 04:42 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
Divided_Sky said: I think I am too socialized to be a succesfull celibate person. No thing in itself will provide happiness, but I know that if I don't eat or drink water I feel like crap. It takes a very strong mind and deep contentment to be happy while denying your bodily and emotional impulses.
I feel like it is kind of overblown in our society and people make the whole thing unessesarily complicated, but it certainly does FEEL like a necessity to me. Maybe if I get involved with a few hundred hedonistic orgies I'll get bored and it won't matter anymore, but right now being celibate sucks.
i believe we all must learn to deny our impulses because if, for instance, i followed every biological impulse i would try to have sex with every girl i found attractive. obviously to get along in society we must learn to not always do what feels the most good biologically, otherwirse id never have made it out of bed this morning. my point is that i think happiness lies more in our ability to control or not be bothered by our impulses rather than in the satisfaction of every impulse. for example you can't have sex every time you see an attractive member of the opposite sex, you can't sleep late every morning, you can't not do your homework every night, etc but you can still learn to be happy. you're never going to be able to satisfy every impulse so if that's what your happiness depends on youre never going to acheive complete happiness.
i am not currently having sex with anyone or even masturbating and yet i am happy, so it is certainly not a necessity. it is only a necessity for you because you have set it up as a condition for your happiness and refuse to allow yourself to be happy without it. if you let go of these ideas i believe you would see it is not a necessity for you either. it is much different from eating or drinking which are much more important in my opinion.
WoW Deviate, I never thought I would hear a guy say this.... I am very impressed by your views.
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant
Registered: 04/05/00
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Ped]
#5030664 - 12/07/05 08:23 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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i suspect the key to well being whether it's the way you have sex or the way you to choose to be celibate is that the choice is your central sacramental activity. and if one was truly asexual then they should accept their state as path to divinity..... see it even as a lineage with mythic connections... find other with the same asexual temperment experiencing to share a deeper sense of union with....
people have their karmic scenarios to play out, would seem a shame to be weighed down tangled up with the head trips of somebody elses.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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