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Offlinenakors_junk_bag
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: rwilber]
    #5024604 - 12/06/05 05:06 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

red in the middle sitll bleeding, its so tasty,


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Offlinesecretmachine
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Ped]
    #5024617 - 12/06/05 05:08 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

yeah i gotta agree with the idea that we dont need sex, in fact its weird, this morning i was thinking about this very subject. My mind said i didnt need sex to be happy as a child, so why would i need it now? I like to look at things in the long run, what does sex get me in the long run? if its just random sex with slutty strangers, that gets me diseases. If its monogomous sex with a girlfriend, that gets me babies and mortgages. looking at it spiritually is another matter entirely. I like to see it as people needing to feel close to someone as a kind of replacement for being in touch with their own self. After i decided to listen to myself instead of trusting in other people, my need to be around other people disappered.. i can have a much deeper conversation with myself then with anyone else.

However thats not to say im not attracted to people anymore, but i deal with it differently than most folks, instead of attributing that feeling to them, i look inside for the source. as soon as i find the source within me, it becomes a part of me, and my attraction for that person fades, because i got what i needed from them in a much faster way than is normally done. Ok im rambling as usual, but maybe someone will understand me.


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A civilization based on authority-and-submission is a civilization without the means of self-correction. Effective communication flows only one way: from master-group to servile-group. Any cyberneticist knows that such a one-way communication channel lacks feedback and cannot behave "intelligently."

the principle of authority" was the "eminently theological, metaphysical and political idea that the masses, always incapable of governing themselves, must submit at all times to the benevolent yoke of a wisdom and a justice, which in one way or another, is imposed from above."
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OfflinePed
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: secretmachine]
    #5024790 - 12/06/05 05:41 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

>> But it has been suggested that celibacy is needed for spiritual growth.

I have not said this. I have said that some people choose celibacy for their own spiritual growth, and that they are not mistaken in doing so.


>> So? Maybe you should learn to accept reality.

Our self-relative bias toward reality and relationships is not realistic and in fact runs against the grain of how things actually are.


>> We? It is a mistake to assume that your view and your attitudes are shared by everyone, they are not. To conceive of others being desirable does not mean that a person is excluding anyone else, though this may be the way you are wired.

I was describing the mechanics of perspective, not imputing my ideas on others. When we are attracted to someone sexually, and not attracted to another person sexually, we are engaged in a kind of self-relative bias. This is how things are. Would you have me believe that it's common for someone to be sexually desirous of all people equally?


>> Equanimical? As in composed, an evenness of mind? Complete impartiality is a chimera, by virtue of existence within the universe we all have our own views.

Being impartial does not mean that we all have the same opinions. It means that we do not hold one person in higher regard than another, sexually or otherwise. It is only a habit of ours to discriminate between living beings and assign value to them according to which of their characteristics best suit our own preferences. It is not a virtue of our existence within the universe. It is a mental habit that can be broken.


>> Debatable. Perhaps what you are really concerned with is freeing yourself from emotional attachments with those you would have sex with.

I am speaking of the desire for physical contact specifically.


>> How do you presume to speak for everyone?

I don't. Absolutist thinking is what I am arguing against. Why do you insist I am trying to impose celibacy on people? I've been very clear that I'm not trying to do this.


>> There are indeed individuals who experience genuine happiness from a healthy and active sex life.

It is not genuine happines in that it is not a lasting happiness. Lasting happiness does not come from external conditions. Although I say this, I do not say that a healthy and active sex life is something to be abandoned, only that some people with certain spiritual objectives may choose this route. They should not be criticized for that choice, because there is no objective basis to support such criticism.


>> Sort of like the fundamentalist attitude and questionable assumption that choosing celibacy helps one grow spiritually?

Choosing celibacy can be very helpful for people with certain spiritual aims. What is fundamentalist about this statement? People grow spiritually whether they like it or not. For some people, a healthy and active sex life is part of this process. It depends upon their current stage of growth and upon their intentions toward their spiritual life.



>> Less than half a percent doesn't seem like a considerable gap.

If we're going to limit our definition of a human being to the mere sum of his genetics, then we must also say that human beings are very similar to bananas, because we share more than three quarters of our genome with these plants as well. Because it is nonsense to compare the emotional and spiritual inclinations of human beings to bananas, it is nonsense to compare the human being to the next most similar animal in terms of genetics alone. The depth of this discussion far exceeds genetic considerations.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Ped]
    #5025186 - 12/06/05 07:11 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I struggled with being celibate for years, and turned down a lot of possibilities. When, later in life, I wanted sex, my desparation chased women away. The sexual energy that accumulated during chastity seemed to attract females. I become ill if I am not in a sexual relationship. I am not the only person who feels this way. I do not mean casual, impersonal or one-night-stand sex (in all my life I have never picked up a female even during times that I wanted to. I have been picked up, given rides home, invited in and have declined the offers). Meanwhile, I have a childhood friend who spent 15 years alone, living in a rural wooded area and didn't have sex in all that time. It is a matter of emotional and sexual need. I do not have great emotional needs, but some real affection needs to be in place for me to have sex with a woman, and that translates into a relationship (at my age). Fortunately I really like, love and get along intellectually and aesthetically with my Lady.



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5025225 - 12/06/05 07:19 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Sex was listed in Maslow's hierarchy as being one of our fundamental biological needs...I tend to agree. It is attached to our health and well being in a very fundamental way.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Ped]
    #5025472 - 12/06/05 08:08 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
If we're going to limit our definition of a human being to the mere sum of his genetics, then we must also say that human beings are very similar to bananas, because we share more than three quarters of our genome with these plants as well. Because it is nonsense to compare the emotional and spiritual inclinations of human beings to bananas, it is nonsense to compare the human being to the next most similar animal in terms of genetics alone. The depth of this discussion far exceeds genetic considerations.




Human beings do share similarities with bananas, many of the same organelles, but this is besides the point. Homo sapiens differs only by a small amount of certian alleles to the Pan paniscus. Consequently, our behavior is very much the same. Its foolish to think the complex biological machinery of Homo sapien L. is somehow outside the realm of the other animals. We all operate according to the same principles.

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5025516 - 12/06/05 08:17 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

markosthegnostic, your post isn't very clear to me. are you saying you both attracted and chased away females at the same time because of your prior celebacy?


Sex was listed in Maslow's hierarchy as being one of our fundamental biological needs...I tend to agree. It is attached to our health and well being in a very fundamental way.


i think this thread was claiming that sex was not essential to our well-being, not that they had no relation. are you saying it is impossible to be well and healthy without having sex? i am not currently having sex, would you suggest i should begin searching for a partner immediately or run risk of compromising my health and well-being?

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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5025725 - 12/06/05 08:46 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

You and I kind of look alike.

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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Deviate]
    #5026006 - 12/06/05 09:40 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

"are you saying it is impossible to be well and healthy without having sex?"

A normal sex life is part of being a psychologically sound adult. Periods of sexual inactivity are usually normal in single and married adults, but extended periods of sexual inactivity (read several years) take their toll on the psyche. Swami's example of Catholic priests experiencing problems is a good example of this problem. As one ages the desire for sex declines a little which is normal. As a 41 year old male in adequate physical condition my sexual activity is down to only once or twice a week. I consider this a healthy level.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5026081 - 12/06/05 09:51 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

but are you saying it is impossible to be celibate and still well and healthy? preists, etc do nothing towards proving this because it only takes on counter example to show otherwirse.

Edited by Deviate (12/06/05 10:00 PM)

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Deviate]
    #5026156 - 12/06/05 10:05 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

You read me correctly...being totally celibate is psychologically unhealthy. There is zero spiritual benefit to staying purely celibate in my opinion.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5026173 - 12/06/05 10:10 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

im not asking whether you think it's healthy or beneficial, i am asking if its possible to for a person to be healthy while celebate.

and what about people like jesus that were spiritually succesful and chose celebacy? who are you to second guess their decision?

Edited by Deviate (12/06/05 10:13 PM)

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Offlinechocbruce
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Ped]
    #5026190 - 12/06/05 10:14 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I think that the best evidence of this article is people who have been abused or raped. Since they were hurt by it...they understand both points of view. Sometimes other people around them misconstrue this for not being interested. They can be very happy people, but it an uphill battle for them. This makes me very sad for anyone who's ever been used like that. Goodnight all...


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I look for answers and present ideas, but in no way shape or form endorse, or partake in, growing, or manufacture of substances, or plants, or any specie that is illegal in your neck of the woods. I do however, tear the tags off of my mattresses. Be warned.

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OfflinePed
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5026194 - 12/06/05 10:15 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

>> Human beings do share similarities with bananas, many of the same organelles, but this is besides the point. Homo sapiens differs only by a small amount of certian alleles to the Pan paniscus. Consequently, our behavior is very much the same. Its foolish to think the complex biological machinery of Homo sapien L. is somehow outside the realm of the other animals. We all operate according to the same principles.

I agree that the relationship between human beings and animals is very close. We possess many of the same instincts, drives, and impulses. We possess the same physical characteristics. We operate according to many of the same principles. We are each motivated in our actions to be happy and not to experience pain. However, in the context of this discussion, none of these similarities carry any significant relevance.

The complexity of human interaction far exceeds that of any animal. The mere fact that we communicate with a spoken language makes this true. The capacity and clarity of our memory makes this true. There are many traits which are uniquely human which make this issue one to be argued in the context of human beings only. There is no ground draw conclusions about the role of sex in a human being's life by comparing that human being to an animal.


>> A normal sex life is part of being a psychologically sound adult.

In the western psychological canon, part of being a psychologically sound adult includes a healthy and active sex life. However, western psychology arose within it's own cultural context. Pervasive in the culture from which western psychology arose is the assumption that sexual contact is a necessity to our health and happiness. We cannot use western psychology as a reference for this debate because western psychology derrives it's conclusions from the same assumptions which have already been challenged.

Referencing western psychology is also out of context. Western psychology has no concerns beyond maintaining individuals as productive members of a cultural society; it does not have any advanced spiritual concerns. We are speaking about celibacy as a spiritual practice.

People in the west commonly believe that an active sex life is necessary for a person to be healthy. But the extent to which this is true has entirely to do with how deeply ingrained such an assumption is. The more we equate our health and happiness with the prolificacy of our sex life, the more our health and happiness will suffer if we must go without sexual contact.


>> Swami's example of Catholic priests experiencing problems is a good example of this problem.

If it were true that celibacy possessed an inherent capacity to breed dysfunction in human beings, then all human beings who practised celibacy would experience this. There are very many healthy, happy human beings who are celibate. The healthiest, most advanced, and happiest person I have ever known has been celibate for 16 years.

The reason Catholic priests experience problems has nothing to do with their vow of celibacy, and everything to do with the severely contaminated intention behind that vow. As I have already stated, the Catholic church is heavily impeded by political and hierarchical concerns. When we take a vow of celibacy for reasons contaminated by these empty concerns, we deprive ourself of sexual contact for the sake of something which carries no rewards. Because there are no benefits, the vow loses it's integrity, and scandals such as the one's we've seen begin to appear. If someone has chosen to take a vow of celibacy with a pure and correct intention, it brings them tremendous benefits, which, in their own words: "very much exceed the benefits I'd have reaped by this time from my former sex life." This is because sexual contact by itself has no power to bring us happiness, or ensure our psychological or emotional health. Because it has no such power, it can be abstained from without consequence.

The extent to which our sexual activity has the power to make us happy is directly proportionate to the extent we believe it to be true.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Deviate]
    #5026288 - 12/06/05 10:31 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

"im not asking whether you think it's healthy or beneficial, i am asking if its possible to for a person to be healthy while celebate."

No, not for years at a time...it is abnormal and unhealthy.

"what about people like jesus that were spiritually succesful and chose celebacy?"

Why ask about a mythological figure with no historical authenticity. This has no bearing on the subject. Let's bring in Odin, Thor, Easter Bunny, or maybe Santa Claus.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Ped]
    #5026296 - 12/06/05 10:33 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Total lifelong celibacy is extremism. Does not Buddhism (which I think you identify with) discuss the "middle way"?

"The complexity of human interaction far exceeds that of any animal."

Then let me introduce you to "intelligent design". Come on man...we are animals...nothing more or less.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5026361 - 12/06/05 10:46 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

No, not for years at a time...it is abnormal and unhealthy.

you are totally ignoring my question. i am not asking whether you think celebacy is healthy, i am asking whether its possible for someone to be celebate and healthy. if not where is your evidence?



Why ask about a mythological figure with no historical authenticity. This has no bearing on the subject. Let's bring in Odin, Thor, Easter Bunny, or maybe Santa Claus.

ok then, ramana maharshi the indian sage with plenty of historical authenticity. he lived his entire adult life celebate and remained happy and healthy the entire time. as ped pointed out, if celebacy was an inherent cause of imbalance and poor health this would not have been possible.

you've provided no evidence to suggest that it is impossible to be remain psychology healthy without having sex and i believe there are numerous counter examples. so what is your claim based on?

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5026372 - 12/06/05 10:48 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Total lifelong celibacy is extremism. Does not Buddhism (which I think you identify with) discuss the "middle way"?

"The complexity of human interaction far exceeds that of any animal."

Then let me introduce you to "intelligent design". Come on man...we are animals...nothing more or less.




both my dogs are nutered and they appear perfectly healthy, in addition nutered dogs tend to live longer. if we are animals and animals can live healthy lives without sex why can't we?

my fish has never had sex either nor has he once complained or shown any signs of poor health.

Edited by Deviate (12/06/05 10:53 PM)

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OfflinePed
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5026469 - 12/06/05 11:07 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

>> Total lifelong celibacy is extremism. Does not Buddhism (which I think you identify with) discuss the "middle way"?

As a practising Buddhist, I try my best not to identify with Buddhism.

What makes it an extreme? The action or the intention? Actions possess no inherent characteristics. The potential contained within any action comes from it's intention. The intention behind celibacy is not extreme, in fact it is aimed at overcoming a pre-existing extreme view which all human beings presently abide with. That extreme view has already been explained.

From the point of view of the action, taking a vow of celibacy is an extreme, as our frame of reference is the common practise of moderate sexual exchange between people. From the point of view of the intention, which is to develop a mind of equanimity and impartial love, taking a vow celibacy leads us toward the middle way.


>> Then let me introduce you to "intelligent design". Come on man...we are animals...nothing more or less

There is no comparison to be made between the absurdity of intelligent design and the plain and simple fact that human beings can be distinguished from animals within a certain context. This is one of those contexts.

If you asked me from a purely physical standpoint "are humans different from animals", of course I'd say no. If you asked me from a developmental or evolutionary standpoint "are humans different from animals", of course I'd say no. If you asked me from an emotional, intellectual, or spiritual standpoint "are humans different from animals", I'd say "yes, glaringly".

Do you disagree that there is a gap between an individual human being's maximum capacity for intelligence and an individual animal's maximum capacity for intelligence? Take as your example the most intellectually advanced human being ever known. Now take the most intellectually advanced animal ever known and draw a comparison. Is there not a clear distinction between the two, at least from an intellectual standpoint? Substituting intellegence with emotional capacity or spiritual capacity, do you disagree with these considerations as well?

Now, of course we can reverse this contemplation and take as our examples the least advanced human being and the most advanced animal. I'm sure here we'd find at least some overlap. But that is beside the point, because generally speaking, on an intellectual, emotional, or spiritual level, there are clear and accurate distinctions to be made between human beings and animals. The topic of this thread falls within that context.


--------------------


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Sex & Your Wellbeing: Not Intrinsic to Eachother [Re: Ped]
    #5026997 - 12/07/05 01:27 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
The complexity of human interaction far exceeds that of any animal.  The mere fact that we communicate with a spoken language makes this true.




(The Bonobo is a type of Chimpanzee... which is nearly extinct :frown: )

"Bonobos passed the mirror-recognition test for self-awareness in 1994. They communicate through primarily vocal means, although the meanings of their vocalizations are not currently known; however, we do understand some of their natural hand gestures, such as their invitation to play. Two Bonobos, Kanzi and Panbanisha have been taught a vocabulary of about 400 words which they can type using a special keyboard of lexigrams (geometric symbols), and can respond to spoken sentences. Some, such as bioethicist Peter Singer, argue that these results qualify them for the same rights as humans."

Coincidently...

"Sexual intercourse plays a major role in Bonobo society... Bonobos are the only non-human apes to have been observed engaging in all of the following sexual activities: tongue kissing, face-to-face vaginal intercourse, oral sex, genital rubbing between females, and "frottage" between males."

While I would make no argument that Homo sapiens seem far, far more complex than any other organism on the planet, the phrase "uniquely human" gives me doubts. As does the phrase "unique amino acid."

This all seems rather red herring anyway, seeing as I agree with much of your point. I think a human can overcome much of his 'natural state of being' in respects to the mind and its function. Physical features we cannot really change, we cannot consciously grow another arm or leg. But, our ability to direct our lives in a voluntary manner prevents us from the robothood of many other species. Of course, we are not exempt from Pavlovian psychology or other classical conditioning, but I feel we have a greater ability to re-program our conditionings and maybe even our biologically inherited behavior. (Some of it. You don't seem to be able to think yourself out of Down syndrome, schizophrenia, or anything like that.)

I think the problem with celibacy arises when it is forced upon someone from an outside source, for instance, a sadistic Catholic God. Then, its more like sexual repression than celibacy. The person still desires to have intercourse, but because of some "higher reason" they fool themselves with or simply fear, they does not. Buddhists seem to be much better at the re-programming game than Catholics, so I wouldn't be surprised if some Buddhists lived completely happy lives without sex. They also don't have it forced down upon them by some angry Old man in the sky, it seems more like a personal path.

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