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OfflineQuoiyaien
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Tripping weekly as meditative retreat?
    #5008003 - 12/02/05 07:20 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I just had a thought.  The only reason I have heard not to do this is to keep the magic.  Well, what if the only reason tripping is so mindblowing is that it is so different from our everyday reality?  I know this seems obvious, but what about the other side of this?  Im sure its the general concensus that psychedelics help one live a better life. So the more "magical" a trip, the further you are from living that life.  I can see using the crazyness of a trip as a fuel guage for your life.  If everythings flowing right, you wont feel much.  If there are some serious blockages, you WILL know about it. 

Just some support on this idea, although I have no specific sources, is about an LSD researcher who decided to give some acid to some monks.  He gave it to a few, but when he gave it to a Zen master, the master did not feel anything.  He gave him more, nothing.  Even after injesting 900mcg (or something like that) he still said that it was no different than meditation.  The researcher gave up psychedelic research, and took up contemplative life. 

Now this isnt very solid, I know, but I was just looking for others opinions on the matter. 

Theoretically, I can see this really spacing one out, but for someone like me who plays guitar, teaches guitar, and spends the rest of my time at a Zen monastery, this could be fun.  No?  What do you think?  My plan is to rotate my psychedelics, alternating Shrooms, ayahuasca, LSD, and Peruvian Torch, with smoked Salvia, DMT, and 5-MeO-DMT between long trips. I dont see myself being able to do this for an extensive period of time as this would probably render me a space cadet, but I was thinking of treating it like an extensive meditation retreat.  Maybe for a period of like 3 months?  Just a thought.

:heart:Peace:heart:

:hippie:

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Tripping weekly as meditative retreat? [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5008123 - 12/02/05 07:52 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

not a good idea in my opinion. psychedelics put a lot of energy into your nervous system and i don't think it's good to overload it that way. why not just meditate for your meditative retreat?

also did you know that psychedelics are generally forbidden in buddhist practise?

Edited by Deviate (12/02/05 07:54 PM)

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OfflineQuoiyaien
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Re: Tripping weekly as meditative retreat? [Re: Deviate]
    #5008202 - 12/02/05 08:16 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
not a good idea in my opinion. psychedelics put a lot of energy into your nervous system and i don't think it's good to overload it that way.  why not just meditate for your meditative retreat?




Yeah, thats what I thought.  I think once a month is good.  I just wanted others opinions on this.  It has just been a while since I have had a good trip.  Getting a little over-zealous I suppose :crazy:

Quote:


also did you know that psychedelics are generally forbidden in buddhist practise?




Yes.  My teacher and I have talked extensively about this.  Until I take my vows, it is technically alright.  I have to write the Osho everytime I get high.  I get pointers from a Zen teacher about insights from my trips!  Not the best way to approach Zen practice I admit, but as for now, I am a shamanistic Buddhist.  I treat psychedelics with the utmost respect, and as soon as I must give them up, I will without a second thought.

:heart:Peace:heart:

:hippie:

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Tripping weekly as meditative retreat? [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5008236 - 12/02/05 08:25 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

also, another thing you might want to consider is that ive read that overuse of psychedelics can actually downgrade your ability to have spiritual experiences. so if you are serious about your zen practise i would highly advise against this. once a month is a much better idea IMO.


Yes. My teacher and I have talked extensively about this. Until I take my vows, it is technically alright. I have to write the Osho everytime I get high. I get pointers from a Zen teacher about insights from my trips! Not the best way to approach Zen practice I admit, but as for now, I am a shamanistic Buddhist. I treat psychedelics with the utmost respect, and as soon as I must give them up, I will without a second thought.

Peace


i'm curious to hear more about what your teacher said about them, anything interesting facts you want to share?

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Offlinedante
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Re: Tripping weekly as meditative retreat? [Re: Deviate]
    #5008293 - 12/02/05 08:41 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Just some support on this idea, although I have no specific sources, is about an LSD researcher who decided to give some acid to some monks. He gave it to a few, but when he gave it to a Zen master, the master did not feel anything. He gave him more, nothing. Even after injesting 900mcg (or something like that) he still said that it was no different than meditation. The researcher gave up psychedelic research, and took up contemplative life.




You are talking about Baba Ram Dass, formely Richard Alpert, an associate of Leary's in the Harvard-LSD days. And the spiritual teacher, he was not a Zen master, he was Hindu, a guru. Ram Dass did not exactly leave that scene of psychedelics and I dont know.. alot of people question his validity on some things. I don't know myself I can't judge him. In his book Be Here Now he lists some pros and cons of psychedelics as means to enlightenment. Simplified it is something like: they bring you up and they bring you right back down. You really need something more for spiritual practice but they can be used occasionally.

The whole deal for me is like this:
Psychedelics as a retreat.. thats great. The point of life is to enjoy. However, if you are Buddhist, you understand the Middle Way. Don't overdo anything at all, you know the consequences. Don't become attached to it either. I don't think doing psychedelics is non-Buddhist and I don't think it matters anyway. If you are attached to vows or being "Buddhist" then I think you are missing the point. (I am not saying you are here)

Just learn from your life, and experience. Is this right for me? Let's try see what happens. Where did I go wrong? Meditation brings you into yourself where these answers are clear and come before you can have thoughts of them. Strong meditation practice is a very good thing for observing your life. So mainly, what I am saying is, observe and find out if its the right thing or not as a meditative retreat.


--------------------
The clouds above us join & separate,
The breeze in the courtyard leaves & returns.
Like is like that, so why not relax?
Who can stop us from celebrating?

-Lu Yu

Edited by dante (12/02/05 08:59 PM)

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OfflineQuoiyaien
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Re: Tripping weekly as meditative retreat? [Re: Deviate]
    #5008369 - 12/02/05 08:59 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:


i'm curious to hear more about what your teacher said about them, anything interesting facts you want to share?




She basically said that the drug experience is only that.  The drug experience. It is a state.  Like happiness, hunger, lust, etc...  It, like everything else, comes and goes.  You hear a sound.  Then it is gone.  Where did it go? 

Peace

:japsmile:

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Tripping weekly as meditative retreat? [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5008439 - 12/02/05 09:27 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

true its only a passing experience but would she say whether she felt some drug experiences could be beneficial in the process of self awarenes?

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OfflineQuoiyaien
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Re: Tripping weekly as meditative retreat? [Re: Deviate]
    #5008595 - 12/02/05 10:33 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Not directly.  She agreed with the insights, but still telling me that they dont really matter.  Insights happen.  Thats what happens in practice.  But they are still just thoughts, and to categorize them as "insights," closes them off, making them solid.  She likend it to trying to put a big box in a small box. 

But I dont know.  I feel like my practice would be nowhere near as deep without psychedelics.  But she is a Zen Priest.  And maybe she was just pointing to my not thinking about it.  Deep breeds shallow, before breeds  after. Just remember my practice.

:heart:Peace:heart:

:hippie:

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Offlinematchbook
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Re: Tripping weekly as meditative retreat? [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5008743 - 12/02/05 11:34 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I think you are conning yourself without knowing it--looking for reasons to take more than you need, and probably more than you should.


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Tripping weekly as meditative retreat? [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5008871 - 12/03/05 12:18 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Quoiyaien said:
I just had a thought. The only reason I have heard not to do this is to keep the magic. Well, what if the only reason tripping is so mindblowing is that it is so different from our everyday reality? I know this seems obvious, but what about the other side of this? Im sure its the general concensus that psychedelics help one live a better life. So the more "magical" a trip, the further you are from living that life. I can see using the crazyness of a trip as a fuel guage for your life. If everythings flowing right, you wont feel much. If there are some serious blockages, you WILL know about it.

Just some support on this idea, although I have no specific sources, is about an LSD researcher who decided to give some acid to some monks. He gave it to a few, but when he gave it to a Zen master, the master did not feel anything. He gave him more, nothing. Even after injesting 900mcg (or something like that) he still said that it was no different than meditation. The researcher gave up psychedelic research, and took up contemplative life.

Now this isnt very solid, I know, but I was just looking for others opinions on the matter.

Theoretically, I can see this really spacing one out, but for someone like me who plays guitar, teaches guitar, and spends the rest of my time at a Zen monastery, this could be fun. No? What do you think? My plan is to rotate my psychedelics, alternating Shrooms, ayahuasca, LSD, and Peruvian Torch, with smoked Salvia, DMT, and 5-MeO-DMT between long trips. I dont see myself being able to do this for an extensive period of time as this would probably render me a space cadet, but I was thinking of treating it like an extensive meditation retreat. Maybe for a period of like 3 months? Just a thought.





I'm sorry, I feel that is bordering on disrespectful.

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Offlinefeeltheholyghost
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Re: Tripping weekly as meditative retreat? [Re: MOTH]
    #5009118 - 12/03/05 02:09 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I think you should focus more on each individual experience and take it one at a time before you map out a whole schedule that you might not be able to keep up with physically or mentally. Psychedelics help one live a better life only if you take from each experience, learn from it, and apply it to life.

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Re: Tripping weekly as meditative retreat? [Re: feeltheholyghost]
    #5009335 - 12/03/05 04:34 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

feeltheholyghost said:
I think you should focus more on each individual experience and take it one at a time before you map out a whole schedule that you might not be able to keep up with physically or mentally. Psychedelics help one live a better life only if you take from each experience, learn from it, and apply it to life.




Amen, so well said!!!


--------------------

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OfflineQuoiyaien
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Re: Tripping weekly as meditative retreat? [Re: MOTH]
    #5010703 - 12/03/05 02:36 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

EllemyshShade said:


I'm sorry, I feel that is bordering on disrespectful.




No, that is not respecting the value of these wonderful gifts at all.  You ever get a crazy idea, and just want others comfirmation that it is not a good idea? Well, I really have no intention of doing this.  I value psychedelics far to much to abuse them like that.  I dont really know what I was thinking.  All I have planned is an ayahuasca trip in 2 weeks.  It has been like 3 months since I have tripped, and I am getting really stoked.  I am meditating 2 hours a day, and keeping everything very relaxed. There is no way I could possibly do that many trips over such a short time span.  Thanks for the concern :laugh:

:heart:Peace:heart:

:hippie:

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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Tripping weekly as meditative retreat? [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5010732 - 12/03/05 02:47 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Quoiyaien said:
Quote:

EllemyshShade said:


I'm sorry, I feel that is bordering on disrespectful.




No, that is not respecting the value of these wonderful gifts at all.  You ever get a crazy idea, and just want others comfirmation that it is not a good idea? Well, I really have no intention of doing this.  I value psychedelics far to much to abuse them like that.  I dont really know what I was thinking.  All I have planned is an ayahuasca trip in 2 weeks.  It has been like 3 months since I have tripped, and I am getting really stoked.  I am meditating 2 hours a day, and keeping everything very relaxed. There is no way I could possibly do that many trips over such a short time span.  Thanks for the concern :laugh:




:heart: We all get a little excited when it comes to tripping, I think.  :wink:

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Offlineincubaby_421
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Re: Tripping weekly as meditative retreat? [Re: MOTH]
    #5011330 - 12/03/05 06:24 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

live. love. learn.

trip however often or sparse as you feel it is needed,
this varies for everyone,
just be sure to get something out of it,
dont lose appreciation for it,
dont take it for granted.


--------------------
"yet the more i dig, the more i consume, the more i unfold... the less protected i feel.
i am the spit on the hair of the son of an electron, swimming around the nucleus of a cell inside the sperm of a killer bee, and my purpose is as nebulous as why weve been bestowed with the capacity to give a shit" Brandon Boyd


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Offlinewjames
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Re: Tripping weekly as meditative retreat? [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5012833 - 12/04/05 02:34 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

> just looking for others opinions on the matter.

See below for my .02 worth. Nothing I say below I necessarily feel really strongly about. I'm just freely relating ideas that come to mind as I read your message.

> The only reason I have heard not to do this is to keep the magic.

Another reason is that, in all honesty, from a medical standpoint, we don't know the full physical and psychological consequences of frequent use. That alone is reason for circumspection.

On the other hand, supporting your idea, in the old line of research on "psycholytic psychotherapy" very small doses of LSD were given to patients (in connection with psychotherapy) at regular intervals (e.g., weekly) over the course of several months. Researchers claimed this had good effects. Note this was for psychotherapy, not meditation.

> LSD researcher who decided to give some acid to some monks. He gave it to a
> few, but when he gave it to a Zen master, the master did not feel anything. He
> gave him more, nothing. Even after injesting 900mcg (or something like that)
> he still said that it was no different than meditation. The researcher gave up
> psychedelic research, and took up contemplative life.

This probably refers to an incident involving Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert. As I heard it, they gave LSD (eventually a large dose) to a yogi in India, who simply said he felt nothing, or, if he did, he thought it was trivial—but, as I heard it, the yogi didn't say it was like meditation.

Alpert did give up psychedelic research, studied yoga, changed his name to Ram Dass, and has since lectured extensively on spirituality.

As a sidenote, Rick Stassman, who wrote the book, DMT: The Sprit Molecule, tried to run a study giving DMT to Zen meditation adepts, but wasn't able to get permission.

> Theoretically, I can see this really spacing one out, but for someone like me who
> plays guitar, teaches guitar, and spends the rest of my time at a Zen monastery,
> this could be fun. No?

I don't exactly understand your point here. If you mean you don't drive or operate heavy machinery for a living, then I guess it is relatively safer (for others) for you to risk spacing yourself out. But to address your comment literally--no, "fun" is a very dubious goal for which to risk spacing out long-term.

Further, one could use the same argument—that you already spend a lot of time in "right-hemisphere activity" (guitar playing), so that what you should be doing is balancing this with left-hemisphere stuff.

> What do you think? My plan is to rotate my psychedelics, alternating Shrooms,
> ayahuasca, LSD, and Peruvian Torch, with smoked Salvia, DMT, and
> 5-MeO-DMT between long trips.

In honesty: this seems extremely unrealistic. Too many substances. Even if there were benefits, you wouldn't be able to associate a particular effect with any particular substance. Imagine what you'd think of a doctor who tried to treat an illness that way, or a mechanic who took that approach to fixing a car!

It seems like you're approaching this whole thing with ego, ego, ego. I mean, only an ego would think "maybe I should try like all these different substances." Neither Nature or your "higher self" would suggest anything like that.

In fact, maybe the whole scheme, the basic belief that you need to experiment with any of these substances, instead of focusing on basic intellectual, social, emotional and spiritual development, is something concocted by ego.

I'm not dissing entheogens. I'm just suggesting that maybe their proper use is to raise a few questions, which you then need to answer or solve in ordinary states of consciousness. Or to say it differently, maybe their role is to give a new, deeper meaning to 'ordinary' reality.


--------------------
"We're all in this consciousness-raising business together."
"An idle mind is the devil's workshop."
"Everyone should eat hashish, but only once." - S. Dali

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Tripping weekly as meditative retreat? [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5013028 - 12/04/05 06:53 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

as a contemplator, and meditator, I must say that your questions often hit very close to home.

I was not able to use lsd or shrooms or weed or alcohol to augment practice, though an occasional once per year kind of acid trip went very well.

currently I am using salvia daily for 2 months, and that kind of works. I hope it is not in the dependancy area, but I am not too concerned as side effects are not arising over 3 years exposure to this material. it might be an option to explore.

I also heard about the zen master who was comfortable with massive lsd, and I have also heard of several zen monks who became scared clowns (like many of us inside really seem to feel). Unfortunately I do not see any sense in there being a challenge about it.

what we do know is set and setting rules. it always brings one back to the current totality. taking it all in at once. letting go. continuing.

thus gone (tathagatho).


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Offlinetrippyride
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Re: Tripping weekly as meditative retreat? [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #9880628 - 02/27/09 08:57 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

DO IT MAN it would be tight i never thoght of doin that:eek:

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Offlinesyke
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Re: Tripping weekly as meditative retreat? [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #9880733 - 02/27/09 09:14 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Quoiyaien said:
  My plan is to rotate my psychedelics, alternating Shrooms, ayahuasca, LSD, and Peruvian Torch, with smoked Salvia, DMT, and 5-MeO-DMT between long trips. I dont see myself being able to do this for an extensive period of time as this would probably render me a space cadet, but I was thinking of treating it like an extensive meditation retreat.  Maybe for a period of like 3 months?  Just a thought.

:heart:Peace:heart:

:hippie:





when do we start? lol


--------------------
Drinking every now and then helps me to not drink anymore.

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OfflineQuoiyaien
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Re: Tripping weekly as meditative retreat? [Re: syke]
    #9881568 - 02/27/09 11:43 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Wow, old thread.  The wave has come and gone, and my method has gravitated towards a much more moderate approach.

:hippie:

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Invisibledoze
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Re: Tripping weekly as meditative retreat? [Re: trippyride]
    #9881601 - 02/27/09 11:55 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

trippyride said:
DO IT MAN it would be tight i never thoght of doin that:eek:




way to disrespect a thread.


i am glad this post got bumped though. it was an insightful read for me.

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OfflineSid
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Re: Tripping weekly as meditative retreat? [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #9881604 - 02/27/09 11:55 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I wouldn't make a tripping schedule. I do psychedelics whenever I feel I'm ready. I haven't felt ready to do shrooms since last Fall. I'd been doing them quite alot, some might say overusing. I think the mushrooms didn't like being misused because I had a couple of spooky trips the last two times I did them.

So I laid off mushrooms for the winter. I still used acid occasionally because I hadn't had a bad experience on them until my last trip when I saw some freaky stuff (looking in the mirror and seeing myself as a skeleton) and basically... I decided to lay off acid for a while. Probably for several months, possibly as long as a year.

But I feel like I'm ready to try mushrooms again. This time I'm going to be much more responsible.

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Offlinepotatonet
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Re: Tripping weekly as meditative retreat? [Re: Sid]
    #9881728 - 02/28/09 12:33 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I saw myself as a skeleton on 4g of a first flush of hawaiins .... Best visual ever ... Btw I'm a bmed engineer so I think the human body is cool.


--------------------
In the Quechua language of Peru there are over 1000 words for "potato"

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Tripping weekly as meditative retreat? [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #9882207 - 02/28/09 03:28 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

reading these older threads is a magical trip in itself.
thanks again!


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflineQuoiyaien
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Re: Tripping weekly as meditative retreat? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9885833 - 02/28/09 05:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Like a glimpse back in time.  :smile:

:hippie:

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