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InvisibleIcelander
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What if depression is healthy?
    #4999858 - 11/30/05 06:42 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

What if depression is your spiritual/emotional self telling you that you are not living an authentic life. That you need to change things but you are unwilling to take that risk or even face some things that terrify you or are painful. What if the chemical imbalances are caused by this and not the other way around.

What are you going to do then?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblepeepeepottypants
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Re: What if depression is healthy? [Re: Icelander]
    #4999872 - 11/30/05 06:45 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Well I know when I go through it, I cry about it awhile, realize that I'm depressed because Im afraid and unwilling to move forward and usually allow myself to be swallowed up whole by the emotion for fear or lack of knowledge in how to change it.

Ive actually started moving forward as of late, and the depression that has been so deeply etched into my life has become much more manageable and is dissapating.

Now that I'm not in such a disagreeabl state of mind, I would have to agree with your assessment


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: What if depression is healthy? [Re: peepeepottypants]
    #4999923 - 11/30/05 06:58 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Wow....im amazed.
Finally someone besides myself has entertained the idea that WE CAUSE OUR OWN DEPRESSION.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What if depression is healthy? [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4999940 - 11/30/05 07:01 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I lived with low grade depression for most of my life. Now that I have found the strength and techniques for challenging my fears and facing my true self with acceptance and love as I am (very imperfect). My depression has greatly lifted and is visiting less and less and for shorter periods. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblepeepeepottypants
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Re: What if depression is healthy? [Re: Icelander]
    #4999954 - 11/30/05 07:05 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

It's just extremely difficult to admit it to yourself when your in it. You want to believe so badly that you're helpless to the situations of the world, that it can be very convincing.

THe trick is how do you convince someone that doesn't want to believe that their stubborness is only perpetuating their situation. And even once they've realized this (which in my case only plunged me deeper) how do you convince them that they DO have the strength to face it?


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: What if depression is healthy? [Re: Icelander]
    #4999969 - 11/30/05 07:10 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I truly hope one day that you (icelander) and all the others on this forum can personally confront their depression and take responsibility for it.
It isnt a guest that stops by for a few days. It isnt extrinsic. I truly believe that once you stop looking at it as if it is a genetic flaw or something outside of you, you can start to be happy.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What if depression is healthy? [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4999978 - 11/30/05 07:13 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

yes :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: What if depression is healthy? [Re: peepeepottypants]
    #5000054 - 11/30/05 07:28 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

peepeepottypants said:

THe trick is how do you convince someone that doesn't want to believe that their stubborness is only perpetuating their situation. And even once they've realized this (which in my case only plunged me deeper) how do you convince them that they DO have the strength to face it?




That is about the most ON POINT statement I have heard concerning this.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: What if depression is healthy? [Re: Icelander]
    #5000153 - 11/30/05 07:51 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I think it really is dependent on the person. I believe most people on anti-depressants don't need them, but I do believe that some of them do have something wrong with their brain chemistry which isn't simply the result of their lifestyle choices.


--------------------


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Invisiblepeepeepottypants
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Re: What if depression is healthy? [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5000275 - 11/30/05 08:26 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
Quote:

peepeepottypants said:

THe trick is how do you convince someone that doesn't want to believe that their stubborness is only perpetuating their situation. And even once they've realized this (which in my case only plunged me deeper) how do you convince them that they DO have the strength to face it?




That is about the most ON POINT statement I have heard concerning this.




Which is pretty funny because if you look many posts back you'll see I was spouting off the same lines on the other end of it.

I found association and removing the feeling of isolation that depression creates, allowed me to realize that yes, people do get out of it, and yes I can too...I just need to know I can. NIN actually helped me a lot because so much of their music is so poignant about the emotions depression has itself. It gave me the means to manifest my sad inward hurtful feelings into a more angry and outward way, which was a good step, because it shifted me from a state of inaction to action, which eventually helped me to realize that I am capable of moving, so I must be capable of moving forward.


and paridigm...I do agree with you as well


Edited by peepeepottypants (11/30/05 08:43 PM)


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Offlineheadset
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Re: What if depression is healthy? [Re: peepeepottypants]
    #5001229 - 12/01/05 01:32 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

if you think your life sucks it will suck indeed - rkl

I agree with everyone here, although im doing well nearly 2 years out of my teenage depression at times i find myself manic..


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Offlinecompman
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Re: What if depression is healthy? [Re: headset]
    #5001350 - 12/01/05 03:37 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I really like what C.G. Jung has to say about this topic.

Jung says life moves forward until we meet an
obstacle we cannot handle with our established conscious attitude.
Depression is the natural process of psychic energy draining away
from conscious life into the unconscious, producing a "standstill"
that persists until the regressed energy re-emerges as a symbolic
and irrational solution to the problem. When we resist the
regression, the depression persists. Only conscious "cooperation"
with this painful process enables the unconscious psyche to
produce a solution that "transcends" the conscious conflict. Jung
calls this unconscious principle of novelty the "transcendent
function."


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: What if depression is healthy? [Re: Icelander]
    #5001368 - 12/01/05 04:15 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I agree. I used to have rather severe clinical depression, but now thanks to MDMA and other substances and some psychotherapy, I'm doing much better.

I now believe that while genetics and brain chemistry might predispose someone slightly to depression, the actual depression itself is under your control. There are so many techniques and lifestyle changes that can be made to lift a depression. Or perhaps depression is based in some psychological problem that is unresolvable (or so we think).

Anyways, I don't much care for the anti-depressants. It's just a means for the pharmaceutical companies to make loads of cash. I mean, which would bring in more money, a medication that people have to rely on every day in order to have some sense of 'happiness', or a medication that people take once or twice under supervised and controlled settings and realize that all their problems are self created and the only thing separating them from true happiness is themselves? Clearly the anti-depressants will make them more money.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: What if depression is healthy? [Re: dblaney]
    #5001462 - 12/01/05 06:53 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I always find it interesting that people on this website clearly recognize the effects that chemicals have upon the psyche and mind.

A simple chemical, psilocybin can induce one to "find god", "become one with the universe", lead to "spiritual enlightenment" etc. etc. Furthermore different chemicals have very different effects: compare MDMA, to LSD to PCP; they are all VERY Different.

Thus, we come to the very clear conclusion that chemicals effect the way we think. We aren't talking about "simple" thought patterns either. These drugs don't do simple things, rather I'm of the opinion that the subjective effects are quite complex ("spiritual enlightenment" for example).

Yet as soon as someone thinks a biochemical process could cause depression, they refuse to believe it. While they firmly believe a chemical will help them reach god (mushrooms), they refuse to believe a chemical/drug could relieve depression (SSRI's for example).

It all sounds a tad hypocritical to me.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineSpooge
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Re: What if depression is healthy? [Re: badchad]
    #5001525 - 12/01/05 07:38 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
I always find it interesting that people on this website clearly recognize the effects that chemicals have upon the psyche and mind. 

A simple chemical, psilocybin can induce one to "find god", "become one with the universe", lead to "spiritual enlightenment" etc. etc.  Furthermore different chemicals have very different effects: compare MDMA, to LSD to PCP; they are all VERY Different.

Thus, we come to the very clear conclusion that chemicals effect the way we think.  We aren't talking about "simple" thought patterns either.  These drugs don't do simple things, rather I'm of the opinion that the subjective effects are quite complex ("spiritual enlightenment" for example).

Yet as soon as someone thinks a biochemical process could cause depression, they refuse to believe it.  While they firmly believe a chemical will help them reach god (mushrooms), they refuse to believe a chemical/drug could relieve depression (SSRI's for example). 

It all sounds a tad hypocritical to me.




Well said  :thumbup:

Although, there's just something about the feeling of taking a chemical(example being psylocybin) which has evolved and molded with human beings for thousands and thousands of years, over a chemical that was made in a labratory by people caught up in their money making lives.

I think we can establish that some chemicals run a somewhat "safe" course through our bodies/brains while others do not.  It is VERY different from person to person. 

Chemicals of all kinds have been in the human "diet" since the beginning.  I think SOME people may need a particular chemical to stabilize/fix/rearrange/etc brain chemistry, but I personally believe these people should at least be using chemicals which have been, as Terrence would say, sactioned by human usage...pharmecutical  SSRI's not having any validity in my opinion.


Edited by entityexperiment (12/01/05 07:47 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What if depression is healthy? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5001568 - 12/01/05 08:06 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
I think it really is dependent on the person. I believe most people on anti-depressants don't need them, but I do believe that some of them do have something wrong with their brain chemistry which isn't simply the result of their lifestyle choices.




Often it wasn't a "lifestyle" choice but the tramatic or neglectful events of childhood. The brain chemistry would be effected and reflect these events, not likely the other way around, although in very rare cases this could be true.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: What if depression is healthy? [Re: badchad]
    #5001588 - 12/01/05 08:14 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
I always find it interesting that people on this website clearly recognize the effects that chemicals have upon the psyche and mind.

A simple chemical, psilocybin can induce one to "find god", "become one with the universe", lead to "spiritual enlightenment" etc. etc. Furthermore different chemicals have very different effects: compare MDMA, to LSD to PCP; they are all VERY Different.

Thus, we come to the very clear conclusion that chemicals effect the way we think. We aren't talking about "simple" thought patterns either. These drugs don't do simple things, rather I'm of the opinion that the subjective effects are quite complex ("spiritual enlightenment" for example).

Yet as soon as someone thinks a biochemical process could cause depression, they refuse to believe it. While they firmly believe a chemical will help them reach god (mushrooms), they refuse to believe a chemical/drug could relieve depression (SSRI's for example).

It all sounds a tad hypocritical to me.




There's drugs and then there's drugs. Some cause damage and some seem not to. Having worked in the health industry for many years, I have seen and heard often of the results of use of pharmaceuticals for depression etc. Not a very good track record IMO.(just maybe because these drugs are covering up symptoms that need to be uncovered, So maybe we need to look elsewhere. Not many doctors will even consider an emotional component to depression. They don't take a personal history of personal events that may be the cause of honest depression. Where's the balance in that?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What if depression is healthy? [Re: compman]
    #5001592 - 12/01/05 08:20 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

compman said:
I really like what C.G. Jung has to say about this topic.

Jung says life moves forward until we meet an
obstacle we cannot handle with our established conscious attitude.
Depression is the natural process of psychic energy draining away
from conscious life into the unconscious, producing a "standstill"
that persists until the regressed energy re-emerges as a symbolic
and irrational solution to the problem. When we resist the
regression, the depression persists. Only conscious "cooperation"
with this painful process enables the unconscious psyche to
produce a solution that "transcends" the conscious conflict. Jung
calls this unconscious principle of novelty the "transcendent
function."




Yes, In most cases I believe this to be true. R.D. Laing, I believe it was said something like. Insanity is a sane reaction to an insane world. I believe this is true for depression. It's a sane and healthy reaction. But to get out of it into true healing you need to be willing to explore the cause of depression, and not just try and make it go away.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflinePrajna
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Re: What if depression is healthy? [Re: Icelander]
    #5001700 - 12/01/05 09:21 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I believe that depression is a symptom of modern life. I don't think many would disagree with me that technology is killing us, the food isn't even food anymore, read the labels on some of this crap. I used to get really depressed and then I changed my diet to all natural foods, I hunt my meat, buy only organic, etc...

I try to get into the land as much as I can, moved out to the country for that very reason...(who wouldn't rather see trees then billboards?)...and after all of these changes, poof! Depression gone.

A deep spiritual connection also helps with this, if you can truly believe that God WANTS you to be depressed, then it is easier to deal with. Instead of popping pills simply ask yourself..."what is God trying to tell me here"?


--------------------


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Invisiblepeepeepottypants
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Re: What if depression is healthy? [Re: Prajna]
    #5001739 - 12/01/05 09:34 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I believe there is a diagnosis for depression caused by a lack of nature....something like nature deficit disorder....

I dunno, someone chime in, cuz I saw it in this forum before, then I saw a book on it in barnes and nobles


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