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Offlinemediman0078
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What do blind people "see" when they trip??
    #4989470 - 11/28/05 02:23 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I was in class today, studying surgical procedures that are done on the eye and was struck by the thought of what someone with no or little visual sensory input might "see" if given shrooms.... I wonder if they see the weird geometrics in their minds too... would it just be like if you tripped and never opened your eyes?? I'm curious now...

Know any blind or near blind trippers or people who have tripped with someone who is here that can answer this?? :laugh:


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........someday I'll find it.


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OfflineMcKennaFan200
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Re: What do blind people "see" when they trip?? [Re: mediman0078]
    #4989477 - 11/28/05 02:25 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I've thought about this before too...never got an answer. :tongue:


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"It seemed to me culture is a shabby lie. Or at least this culture is a shabby lie. If you work like a dog, you get 260 channels of bad television and a German automobile. What kind of perfection is that?"-McKenna


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Offlinetheuser
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Re: What do blind people "see" when they trip?? [Re: McKennaFan200]
    #4989489 - 11/28/05 02:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

The study has been done. The same type of things you see in your mind.


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OfflineBlek
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Re: What do blind people "see" when they trip?? [Re: theuser]
    #4989547 - 11/28/05 02:52 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Sometimes, in a very intense trip, I can't tell if my eyes are open or closed. I literally have to feel my eyelids with my fingers just to tell.. it's very interesting.


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Offlinetheuser
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Re: What do blind people "see" when they trip?? [Re: Blek]
    #4989573 - 11/28/05 02:58 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Picking4Peace said:
Sometimes, in a very intense trip, I can't tell if my eyes are open or closed. I literally have to feel my eyelids with my fingers just to tell.. it's very interesting.




Has happened to me on DXM 2 times. Only at very high, if not dangerous dosages.

I'll remember that forever but I'll never take that amount again, heh.


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:heart:


Edited by poppyguy (11/28/05 03:01 PM)


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Invisibleperfectsphere

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Re: What do blind people "see" when they trip?? *DELETED* [Re: theuser]
    #4989615 - 11/28/05 03:11 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

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Offlinetheuser
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Re: What do blind people "see" when they trip?? [Re: perfectsphere]
    #4989632 - 11/28/05 03:16 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I'm to drunk to find the link or make a write up. :frown:

The 1st test was done on a cat with it's eyes surgecly removed, yeah that's fucking sick. :frown:

The cat started flipping out and pawing/batting at things that were not there.

The human had a simmillar experience but not violent, I'll try to find the link later.


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Offlinemediman0078
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Re: What do blind people "see" when they trip?? [Re: theuser]
    #4989910 - 11/28/05 04:38 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

What I think would be interesting would be to get someone whose experienced with psychedelics that maybe has gone blind from trachoma or retinopathy of some sort well after having taken many doses with normal vision. I'm sure there's at least a few hippies that have had just this occur. Then you'd get a subjective answer about the difference and how much of the visual cortex is actually involved in visual hallucinations. There's some visual cortex involvement here caused by the drug, manifested by closed eye visuals and being able to see them when your eyes are open.... but I wonder what mechanism is being triggered to cause that to occur.

What else would be interesting would be if you could get people with various forms of blindness... say the difference between physical blindness from trachoma and the nueropathic blindness caused by a stroke in the visual center of the brain. Would the stroke victim even have "visuals" since that part of the brain is physically non-functional and therefore unable to produce such symptoms??


HMMMM..... makes me think....


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........someday I'll find it.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: What do blind people "see" when they trip?? [Re: mediman0078]
    #4989975 - 11/28/05 04:49 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

It all depends on if they were blind from birth or went blind later in life.

If they were blind right from birth, it is phsically impossible for them to "see" anything at all - the visual cortex in the brain is not developed at all for vision (though it may be used for the other senses). In this case the person will experience auditory/tactile hallucinations only - no visuals at all.

If they went blind later in life, they could still have "visuals" of a kind because their visual cortex should be pretty well fully developed and working - it just doesn't have any input. I expect they would see flashes of color and such.


This kind of relates to the topic of dreaming. If a person is born blind, they still have dreams at night but those dreams only involve the senses that they have - smell, touch, taste, and sound.

If someone is born with sight but goes blind later on, they continue to dream with nearly full vision - their brain already knows what it is like to "see" something, so it can produce that sight while dreaming.

It must be pretty strange to go to bed blind each night, then have dreams full of vision only to wake up back into blindness in the morning.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinemediman0078
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Re: What do blind people "see" when they trip?? [Re: trendal]
    #4990037 - 11/28/05 05:02 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Aquired modes of processing the outside world would make a difference... You're definently right that one who's never seen before wouldn't process hallucinations as a visual experience, but if they had that part of the brain intact and were, say, blind from an optical nerve defect or an ocular defect, would stimulation of that center cause a "visual".... maybe not as we'd percieve one, but maybe an unusual "flash" or "color" as they might interpret it...

I love this kind of stuff. :laugh:

I need blind people! Free hallucinogenics to blind folks at my place! :laugh: party, party!! (if your reading this you don't count, NO SOUP FOR YOU.)

...and I think that'd be tormenting to wake up after a dream where you could see to blindness... I guess you learn to adapt and overcome, but damn, I think I'd just sleep a whole lot.


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........someday I'll find it.


Edited by mediman0078 (11/28/05 05:09 PM)


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: What do blind people "see" when they trip?? [Re: mediman0078]
    #4990083 - 11/28/05 05:11 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

but if they had that part of the brain intact and were, say, blind from an optical nerve defect or an ocular defect, would stimulation of that center cause a "visual".... maybe not as we'd percieve one, but maybe an unusual "flash" or "color" as they might interpret it...

Well the problem is that the visual cortex (and most of the rest of the brain) can't develop without stimulation.

So if someone is born blind, their brain never gets the visual stimulus it needs to develop the visual cortex. I think in these cases the visual cortex is instead developed as a helper for the other 4 senses that still work - so you would find that the visual cortex in a blind (from birth) person might instead be wired to process audio input, for example.

It is entirely true what they say about people who are missing their sense of sight - their other senses become heightened and stronger than those of people WITH vision. So I expect someone who has been blind from birth would experience hallucinations while tripping that the rest of us could only barely imagine.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleaNeway2sayHooray
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Re: What do blind people "see" when they trip?? [Re: mediman0078]
    #4990106 - 11/28/05 05:16 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

There really isn't a way to tell what a person that has been blind since birth "sees'" or senses.The way they perceive certain objects in there mind just by feeling them can be greatly distorted from mushrooms.But who knows how they perceive different things/actions in there mind.Its like a blank canvas that anything can be painted on.The paint are peoples energies they "see" or feel,things they touch and of course things they hear.
Blind people can see.they can see allot more than you and I can.So in my opinion I think that blind people do see things and sense allot more things in their mental image they create,and it can probably get more distorted than is does for people who can see,if using Hallucinogens.

just some stoned ramblings,cheers,Robert


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Mad_Larkin said:  Death is just a thang.
:clementine:
MrJellineck said:  Profits, prophets. That's all you jews think about.
sheekle said: life is drugs... and music... and cat... :snowman:


Edited by aNeway2sayHooray (11/28/05 05:18 PM)


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Offlinemediman0078
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Re: What do blind people "see" when they trip?? [Re: trendal]
    #4990122 - 11/28/05 05:18 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

damn, i just looked this up in the search engine.... apparently this has been tossed around quite a few times before... damn, i thought I had a cool idea there... apparently I was just sponging another old idea from the collective conciousness. whoops. :laugh:

still an interesting subject though... one I think would make a great experiment if you had a friendly country and a radiographic CT machine, an MRI, and an good EEG... sure would be fun. Tripping witha purpose. :laugh:

And it's true that a person that was born that ways' brain would use that part of the brain to supplement the senses that are available.... so then as you both have stated the distortion would come in the form of another sense.... wooo, I bet that's freaky. Imagine picking up a kiwi (something like that that they know what it is normally) and then not being able to feel it right in their normal sense... I bet that would be absolutely twisted. :crazy2:


--------------------
........someday I'll find it.


Edited by mediman0078 (11/28/05 05:24 PM)


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: What do blind people "see" when they trip?? [Re: mediman0078]
    #4990141 - 11/28/05 05:23 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Have you ever been in a MRI before?

I'm not claustrophobic, but I can't see tripping inside a 2' diameter tube to be very fun. Especially when it's making loud noises at you. :grin:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinemediman0078
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Re: What do blind people "see" when they trip?? [Re: trendal]
    #4990147 - 11/28/05 05:25 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

If you couldn't see it, would it still make you clausterphobic if you knew what was going on?

i've been in and worked around MRI's for a while... i'm a medical professional/med student. That's why this is so interesting to me... talk about a good doctorate thesis.... wish I could get a grant to do the research! That'd be so cool.


--------------------
........someday I'll find it.


Edited by mediman0078 (11/28/05 05:28 PM)


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