|
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
|
djred
newbie

Registered: 08/27/04
Posts: 922
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
|
lowering casin ph level
#4973107 - 11/23/05 04:52 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
using hydrated lime stone, peet moss, coir.. if im wrong where does oyster shells come into play? was that to lower? the ph level. i was exp with my new ph meter and the levels r shotting above 9.. of course not using it, but im curious is to why when i mix peet moss it seems to raise it alone enough with out using limestone flour.
which i was under the impression it lowers it.. guess i got proved wrong..
|
playwithguns
Sporophore

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 223
|
Re: lowering casin ph level [Re: djred]
#4973623 - 11/23/05 06:47 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Oyster shells are meant for longer term PH control since they are not refined and do not break down as fast as other ph buffers.
Adding something like calcium carbonate is for an immediate but not long lasting effect on the casing PH. Hope that helps.
Buffers like calcium carbonate, lime, and oyster shells all raise the ph of the casing making it less acidic.
-------------------- My Garden
Edited by playwithguns (11/23/05 06:48 PM)
|
RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure


Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
|
Re: lowering casin ph level [Re: playwithguns]
#4975408 - 11/24/05 07:04 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Peat has a ph of about 4 to 5. If you were checking the ph right after adding hydrated lime, that's why it was so high. You need to add the lime, then let it sit overnight before reading ph. Also, make sure your ph meter is properly calibrated. I suggest the paper test strips rather than a ph meter. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 10 months, 5 days
|
Re: lowering casin ph level [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5020996 - 12/05/05 11:17 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
pH above 9 with hydrated lime, sounds about right. With my pH probe, it's usually about 10 or higher after a few days. Hydrated lime has never been used in casing preparations until ryche hawke's 50/50 Tek came out. Why? Because it doesn't work well. Ryche's "friend" used it because that's all he could find. Use calcium carbonate next time like the entire rest of the industry and like every mycology book I have ever read recommends.
|
agar
old hand


Registered: 11/21/04
Posts: 9,056
Loc: Somewhere Else
|
Re: lowering casin ph level [Re: Blue Helix]
#5021128 - 12/05/05 11:42 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
I use hydrated lime (Hoffmans brand)because it is water soluable.
But, I use it very sparingly.
A couple tablespoons into a 5 gallon bucket of water / peat & let it soak overnight. Then test & adjust...then soak overnight again, then a final test.
For long term buffer I used oyster shell flour.
 
My prefered casing mix is 45 Peat / 45 Verm / 10 % Coir.
I simply adjust the peat before I make the mix. Then throw in a handfull or more of oyster shell flour.
--------------------
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 10 months, 5 days
|
Re: lowering casin ph level [Re: djred]
#5021326 - 12/06/05 12:19 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah, I agree it works if you are really careful with it. I've used it with success too, but then again, I used a sensitive pH probe to make sure I wasn't overdoing it. I don't recommend hydrated lime because it's very easy to go overboard on it. I know it's soluable, but calcium carbonate, although not very soluable, is soluable enough to work well in this application. I recommend about 1/2 cup powdered calcium carbonate per 10 cups packed peat. About a 1/2 teaspoon of pure food-grade hydrated lime per 15 cups of peat will get you to the same pH--yeah you read it right, 1/2 TEASPOON.
I also recommend rinsing out the peat of silt. It has proven itself to me several times as a step that makes a difference. You can rinse peat using a cheap plastic woven cement bag they sell at most hardware stores. Just fill the bag and run tap water through it, mixing it up in the water. The bag will act as a strainer letting some silt out but keeping the bulk of the peat moss inside. In nature mushrooms grow through very well rain-rinsed soil just like this, so it's no wonder it works.
So you can get the right pH but the real problem with hydrated lime is that its buffering ability vanishes in days. In a matter of days, it reacts with CO2 forming calcium carbonate, a much weaker base. Now once that happens, your pH that you measured in the beginning drops. Hopefully the oyster shells bail you out, but why not just start with calcium carbonate powder?
It's funny how many people talk about this stuff but don't have a decent probe. Like if Ryche had a probe, he wouldn't have recommended 1.2 CUPS of hydrated lime per 15 cups of peat, a recommendation that has no doubt ruined hundreds of casings and wasted countless manhours. A good probe should read and be accurate to +/-.01. With the probe it will run about $100. All pH probes of this quality must be calibrated monthly with a buffer solution to remain accurate. You sure don't need a probe like that to make a good casing, but before folks start trying to talk about what works and doesn't, I think it's a good idea to have some real pH numbers to back it up, not just a couple good runs. After all, sometimes it's hard to kill cubes with the most crazy neglect.
PS - One thing I'd like to add is that I only know about food grade hydrated lime. I don't know what that grey shit they sell at garden stores even is much less its buffering capacity. Both calcium carbonate and hydrated lime are snow white without impurities.
Edited by Blue Helix (12/06/05 12:25 AM)
|
agar
old hand


Registered: 11/21/04
Posts: 9,056
Loc: Somewhere Else
|
Re: lowering casin ph level [Re: Blue Helix]
#5021648 - 12/06/05 01:51 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
I wasn't arguing your point.
I have a top notch Hanna probe & buffer solution. (Discus is another hobby of mine & Ph is critical)
 But, still use strips on casing material, for old times sake. Strips are cheap, accurate & about dummy proof. You can also find them about anywhere.
I just happened to bump into oyster shell flour for cheap - per 50 lb bag & bought 4. Since I did not know if I would bump into a bargain like that again.
A trick with it is to throw about 25% of the amount you intend to use in a stainless steel blender, along with some water & blend it into real fine particles (I mean FINE, like milk looking).

Then add that in, with the other, before application. Doing so helps hold the Ph very well, for a considerable time.
--------------------
|
ohmatic
searcher


Registered: 02/28/04
Posts: 6,742
Loc: europe
|
Re: lowering casin ph level [Re: agar]
#5021685 - 12/06/05 02:01 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
ha !
thats funny, as i always mix my calcium carbonate with water before using it in the casing mix 
its much nicer to distro this "soup" than just mixing in the raw powder. peace ohm
--------------------
MONOTUB tek HEATBOMB tek RIP #cultivation! ....can't associate? well FUCK U !
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 10 months, 5 days
|
Re: lowering casin ph level [Re: djred]
#5022668 - 12/06/05 10:12 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
agar, I use wine making calcium carbonate powder with crushed coral aragonite chips. Sometimes I use a dash of food-grade hydrated lime too, but I don't use much at all, maybe a quarter teaspoon per ten cups. Agar, nice blender by the way! I don't have a military blender that chops up concrete like ice. LOL Hey, I bet that blender can make some wicked drinks!
|
Jaeger
Dreamer
Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 960
|
Re: lowering casin ph level [Re: Blue Helix]
#5023283 - 12/06/05 12:36 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Buffering ability? I do not understand why that is so important. Does the growth of mushrooms release an acidic byproduct? If not, then you are only introducing the lime (or other base) to get the initial ph down to the preferred level. Once the acidity is neutralized, it shouldn't need any further care if the mushrooms do not contribute acids (to lower the ph) What is wrong with my above statement that makes buffering ability so necessary?
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 10 months, 5 days
|
Re: lowering casin ph level [Re: djred]
#5023712 - 12/06/05 01:59 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Yes, the growth of mushrooms does release acidic byproducts. This is the said reason people add oyster shell chips and such to their casing, to increase the long term buffering capacity. I think for most growers, though, this is a little overstated. Sure there is some effect but it's small. I like to add crushed coral for a texture component mostly. Mushrooms seem to love a very airy casing that has been well rinsed.
|
|