Home | Community | Message Board

Avalon Magic Plants
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore Injection Grain Bag

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Clemency for Crip Co-founder?
    #4962542 - 11/21/05 12:16 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Article
By Larry B. Stammer, Los Angeles Times | November 20, 2005

LOS ANGELES -- Day and night, a cadre of the condemned -- 3,500 men and 54 women -- await their fate on the death rows of US prisons.

But the life of a single convict scheduled to die by lethal injection at California's San Quentin prison on Dec. 13 -- Stanley ''Tookie" Williams -- has reignited a passionate debate among people of faith over accountability and punishment, forgiveness and redemption.

"There's a grass-roots buzz about it. There are a lot of people talking about it because of who he was here in Los Angeles," said Bishop Kenneth C. Ulmer of Faithful Central Bible Church in Inglewood, a large, predominantly black congregation.

Jewish, Christian, Muslim, and Buddhist clerics and scholars said last week that the Williams case is fraught with ethical and moral implications.

How does a society weigh the lives of the four murder victims against the life of a convicted murderer who is genuinely reported to have reformed? How are accountability and forgiveness balanced? Even within religions, believers may disagree.

Williams, 51, cofounded the Crips, the lethal street gang. He was convicted of the brutal gun murders of four people in 1979, during two Los Angeles robberies.

But after nearly 25 years behind bars, Williams, for many people, has become an icon of redemption. He has written 10 children's books imploring youths to stay out of gangs. He has helped mediate gang treaties. His life has become the subject of a made-for-television movie, ''Redemption," starring actor Jamie Foxx. Williams professes his innocence.

The cover story in last week's Los Angeles Jewish Journal carried the headline, ''Should Tookie Die?" Across the state, placard-carrying demonstrators have implored Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger to grant clemency.

In this case, clemency would mean life imprisonment without the possibility of parole.

Challenging that stance, California law enforcement officials are calling on Schwarzenegger to allow the execution. Los Angeles County District Attorney Steve Cooley decried Williams as a ''cold-blooded killer."

Proponents of the death penalty say that whatever Williams's efforts at amending his life, while laudable, cannot overcome the debt owed for taking lives.

''Principally, from a conservative biblical approach, if you shed man's blood, by man your blood should be shed," said Kevin Lewis, an assistant professor of theology and law at the Talbot School of Theology at Biola University in LaMirada, Calif.

Lewis said that if the governor granted clemency, society, under the concept of retributive justice, would bear the consequences of the crime. He doesn't think it should be allowed in this case.

Lewis's views are at odds with the positions of many US religious leaders, including the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, the heads of mainline Protestant churches, and a number of Jewish and Islamic scholars.

Last week, for example, US Catholic bishops strongly reaffirmed their church's opposition to the death penalty. ''It is time for our nation to abandon the illusion that we can protect life by taking life," the bishops said.

In weighing decisions of life and death, the notion of repentance figures prominently in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Repentance is more than saying ''sorry." It is radically turning from old and harmful ways.

That is a problem in Williams's case. Last week, Williams refused to apologize for murders, because, he continued to say, he did not commit them.

Beyond theology, there are streetwise reasons for allowing Williams to live, said Bishop Kenneth C. Ulmer, pastor of the Faithful Central Bible Church in Inglewood, Calif.

To gang members, Tookie Williams is a hero, Ulmer said. ''If he's going to be a hero, let him be a hero as one who turned himself around," Ulmer said.

If Williams is executed, Ulmer said, gang members would ask why they should change at all. ''Why turn? Maybe it's better for me to spend the rest of my life running than it is to stop, slow down, and turn around," Ulmer said.

Rapper Snoop Dogg, once a member of the Crips gang, called yesterday for authorities to spare Williams as hundreds gathered outside the prison to protest against his planned execution next month.

''Stanley 'Tookie' Williams is not a regular guy; he's an inspiration," he said. ''All I want to say to the governor is it's about keeping this man alive because his voice needs to be heard."


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Clemency for Crip Co-founder? [Re: daimyo]
    #4962544 - 11/21/05 12:17 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Should a murdering gang member be allowed to live because he may be an inspiration to more thugs?


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinehawksapprentice
Yearns to Snowboard
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 3,195
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 13 days, 16 hours
Re: Clemency for Crip Co-founder? [Re: daimyo]
    #4962593 - 11/21/05 12:40 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Does violence solve violence???


--------------------
"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Clemency for Crip Co-founder? [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #4962596 - 11/21/05 12:42 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Depends on the situation.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinegregorio
Too Damn Old
Male

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 2,831
Loc: Classified
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: Clemency for Crip Co-founder? [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #4962666 - 11/21/05 01:22 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Absolutely, many times it does solve it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinehawksapprentice
Yearns to Snowboard
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 3,195
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 13 days, 16 hours
Re: Clemency for Crip Co-founder? [Re: gregorio]
    #4962670 - 11/21/05 01:24 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

How???


--------------------
"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinegregorio
Too Damn Old
Male

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 2,831
Loc: Classified
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: Clemency for Crip Co-founder? [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #4962678 - 11/21/05 01:27 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Let's say your at the mall and some crazed lunatic pulls out a gun and starts shooting everybody in sight. Only another act of violence, a bullet in his head, is going to stop the massacre.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinehawksapprentice
Yearns to Snowboard
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 3,195
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 13 days, 16 hours
Re: Clemency for Crip Co-founder? [Re: gregorio]
    #4962682 - 11/21/05 01:31 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

In that scenario it does stop the violence. But I stand by the statement that it doesn't solve the violence. Shooting him does not resolve the issue of why he was shooting in the first place. As does killing this man solve the reasons why young people join gangs and resort to violence as a means of getting by.


--------------------
"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Clemency for Crip Co-founder? [Re: gregorio]
    #4962684 - 11/21/05 01:32 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

That guy in Tacoma, WA surrendered to the SWAT team before they had to pop him though. Smart move. Link


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Clemency for Crip Co-founder? [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #4962687 - 11/21/05 01:34 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Nothing will solve violence.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMadtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,286
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
Re: Clemency for Crip Co-founder? [Re: gregorio]
    #4962694 - 11/21/05 01:35 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I admire the guys efforts I guess, but I dont know how much those books he writes do to keep kids out of gangs...

But shit, let him off...Its not like he'll be on the streets. He'll still be in prison for life...


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinehawksapprentice
Yearns to Snowboard
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 3,195
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 13 days, 16 hours
Re: Clemency for Crip Co-founder? [Re: daimyo]
    #4962699 - 11/21/05 01:38 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Depends on the type of violence your talking about. There is necessary violence which is for survival, i.e. nature. Killing to be able to eat, cutting down a tree for housing. All violence depending on how you look at it.

And there is unnecessary violence. Killing because someone stole from you, made you mad, wore the wrong colors in the wrong part of town.


No....violence in either form is an issue that is not going to be solved. But it is an issue that we can conciously choose not to participate in.

There is no need for that man to die. Killing him does nothing.


--------------------
"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinehawksapprentice
Yearns to Snowboard
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 3,195
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 13 days, 16 hours
Re: Clemency for Crip Co-founder? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #4962702 - 11/21/05 01:39 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

To play the devils advocate for a sec.

Not killing him just means that tax payers get to foot the bill to feed and house him.


--------------------
"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMadtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,286
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
Re: Clemency for Crip Co-founder? [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #4962715 - 11/21/05 01:44 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

No doubt. I'm sorry, if a man is a halfway decent person, even considering the horrible shit he did, I really dont mind paying some money every year to keep him alive. Should we execute everywhere who has life in prison, just 'cause we dont want to foot the bill? Pretty callous, to kill him so you dont have to pay for him.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Clemency for Crip Co-founder? [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #4962717 - 11/21/05 01:44 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Also, the families of the victims lost out on that closure.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinehawksapprentice
Yearns to Snowboard
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 3,195
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 13 days, 16 hours
Re: Clemency for Crip Co-founder? [Re: daimyo]
    #4962721 - 11/21/05 01:47 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Your saying if he is not executed??


--------------------
"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinehawksapprentice
Yearns to Snowboard
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 3,195
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 13 days, 16 hours
Re: Clemency for Crip Co-founder? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #4962726 - 11/21/05 01:48 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, but its also pretty callous to kill 4 people too. It's pretty callous to rape a woman. And then get fed and housed at the expense of my pocket.

Im not changing my stance here, just playing the devils advocate.


--------------------
"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinegregorio
Too Damn Old
Male

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 2,831
Loc: Classified
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: Clemency for Crip Co-founder? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #4962749 - 11/21/05 01:56 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Pretty callous, to kill him so you dont have to pay for him.




Thats not it. People want to see him executed because he took the lives of four people.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Clemency for Crip Co-founder? [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #4962758 - 11/21/05 01:58 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Should we execute everywhere who has life in prison, just 'cause we dont want to foot the bill?



Yes. Well that, and to set an example.

Quote:

hawksapprentice said:
Your saying if he is not executed??



Yeah.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinehawksapprentice
Yearns to Snowboard
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 3,195
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 13 days, 16 hours
Re: Clemency for Crip Co-founder? [Re: gregorio]
    #4962761 - 11/21/05 01:59 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

No people want to see him executed because he was the head of the Crips. People murder people all the time and dont get the death penalty.


--------------------
"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore Injection Grain Bag


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Music Executive Ridiculed at Pirate Bay Trial LobsterSauceDiscord 1,256 9 03/01/09 02:01 PM
by The_Ghost
* Black sergeant was 'loyal Klansman' Silversoul 886 6 01/15/06 11:12 AM
by Konnrade
* Blood or Crip? Signo 1,728 4 05/25/05 09:51 PM
by deryl
* Late Night Crips.
( 1 2 3 all )
Banez 3,446 55 05/16/07 02:26 PM
by ganjaguru
* EADS executive aware of Airbus A380 delay (!) Vvellum 295 0 06/16/06 03:22 PM
by Vvellum
* Just another non-violent drug offender sentenced to 27 years in federal prison asking for clemency. jewunit 1,486 12 02/16/10 12:37 PM
by Green_T
* who here in there area calls high end marijuana
( 1 2 3 4 all )
ayshuca 2,565 64 07/21/09 03:44 AM
by TsalagiSpirit
* Do you feel bad buying drugs from crips?
( 1 2 all )
Supreme Slammage 3,894 39 01/25/10 03:12 AM
by madsick

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Entire Staff
1,670 topic views. 6 members, 23 guests and 57 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2023 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.028 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 16 queries.