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OfflinePhred
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Should the opinions of soldiers count more?
    #4959450 - 11/20/05 10:42 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

In a recent thread, RandalFlagg stated the opinions of soldiers should count more in the debate on war than those of non-soldiers. Some of his specific quotes were:

"Why do you seem to support the views of pampered blue-blood Ivy League politicians who have never served over politicians who have actually served in wartime?"

and

"I think we should hold a vote for U.S. armed forces personnel only. They should vote on whether they want to stay in or leave Iraq. They are the ones who are over there fighting, dying, and making sacrifices. In cases where a military effort is no longer about self-defense, I see no problem in letting military personnel decide if they want to continue to pursue it."

and

"But, when it comes to matters of conflict, I respect the opinions of a man who has fought before more than a man who hasn't."

In the spirit of pursuing this viewpoint a little further, I thought I might post some thoughts of people involved in the current conflict in Iraq. Here's one to get us started:

Quote:

Mom

Be my voice. I want this message heard. It is mine and my platoon's to the country. A man I know lost his legs the other night. He is in another company in our batallion. I can no longer be silent after watching the sacrifices made by Iraqis and Americans everyday. Send it to a congressman if you have to. Send it to FOX news if you have to. Let this message be heard please.




My fellow Americans,

I have a task for those with the courage and fortitude to take it. I have a message that needs not fall on deaf ears. A vision the blind need to see. I am not a political man nor one with great wisdom. I am just a soldier who finds himself helping rebuild a country that he helped liberate a couple years ago.

I have watched on television how the American public questions why their mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters are fighting and dying in a country 9000 miles away from their own soil. Take the word of a soldier, for that is all I am, that our cause is a noble one. The reason we are here is one worth fighting for. A cause that has been the most costly and sought after cause in our small span of existence on our little planet. Bought in blood and paid for by those brave enough to give the ultimate sacrifice to obtain it. A right that is given to every man, woman, and child I believe by God. I am talking of freedom.

Freedom. One word but yet countless words could never capture it's true meaning or power. "For those who have fought for it, freedom has a taste the protected will never know." I read that once and it couldn't be more true. It's not the average American's fault that he or she is "blind and deaf" to the taste of freedom. Most American's are born into their God given right so it is all they ever know. I was once one of them. I would even dare to say that it isn't surprising that they take for granted what they have had all their life. My experiences in the military however opened my eyes to the truth.

Ironically you will find the biggest outcries of opposition to our cause from those who have had no military experience and haven't had to fight for freedom. I challenge all of those who are daring enough to question such a noble cause to come here for just a month and see it first hand. I have a feeling that many voices would be silenced.

I watched Cindy Sheehan sit on the President's lawn and say that America isn't worth dying for. Later she corrected herself and said Iraq isn't worth dying for. She badmouthed all that her son had fought and died for. I bet he is rolling over in his grave.

Ladies and gentleman I ask you this. What if you lived in a country that wasn't free? What if someone told you when you could have heat, electricity, and water? What if you had no sewage systems so human waste flowed into the streets? What if someone would kill you for bad-mouthing your government? What if you weren't allowed to watch TV, connect to the internet, or have cell phones unless under extreme censorship? What if you couldn't put shoes on your child's feet? You need not to have a great understanding of the world but rather common sense to realize that it is our duty as HUMAN BEINGS to free the oppressed. If you lived that way would you not want someone to help you????

The Iraqi's pour into the streets to wave at us and when we liberated the cities during the war they gathered in the thousands to cheer, hug and kiss us. It was what the soldier's in WW2 experienced, yet no one questioned their cause!! Saddam was no better than Hitler! He tortured and killed thousands of innocent people. We are heroes over here, yet American's badmouth our President for having us here.

Every police station here has a dozen or more memorials for officers that were murdered trying to ensure that their people live free. These are husbands, fathers, and sons killed every day. What if it were your country? What would your choice be? Everything we fight for is worth the blood that may be shed. The media never reports the true HEROISM I witness everyday in the Iraqi's. Yes there are bad one's here, but I assure you they are a minuscule percent. Yet they are a number big enough to cause worry in this country's future.

I have watched brave souls give their all and lose thier lives and limbs for this cause. I will no longer stand silent and let the "deaf and blind" be the only voice shouting. Stonewall Jackson once said, "All that I have, all that I am is at the service of the country." For these brave souls who gave the ultimate sacrifice, including your son Cindy Sheehan, I will shout till I can no longer. These men and women are heroes. Their spirit lives on in their military and they will never be forgotten. They did not die in vain but rather for a cause that is larger than all of us.

My fellow countrymen and women, we are not overseas for our country alone but also another. We are here to spread democracy and freedom to those who KNOW the true taste of it because they fight for it everyday. You can see the desire in their eyes and I am honored to fight alongside them as an Infantryman in the 101st Airborne.

Freedom is not free, but yet it is everyone's right to have. Ironic isn't it? That is why we are here. Though you will always have the skeptics, I know that most of our military will agree with this message. PLease, at the request of this soldier spread this message to all you know. We are in Operation Iraqi Freedom and that is our goal. It is a cause that I and thousands of others stand ready to pay the ultimate sacrifice for because, Cindy Sheehan, freedom is worth dying for, no matter what country it is! And after the world is free only then can we hope to have peace.




SGT Walter J. Rausch and 1st Platoon
Charlie Co. 2/327 Infantry Regiment
101st Airborne Division (Air Assault)




I found that one at http://2slick.blogspot.com/2005/11/another-great-letter-from-iraq.html

I have no difficulty finding dozens (or even hundreds) more in that vein, but this'll do for starters.

Anyone have any comments on SGT Rausch's letter?





Phred


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: Phred]
    #4959654 - 11/20/05 12:05 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Anyone interested in the opinons of soldiers on Iraq and Afghanistan should read the book "Will they ever trust us again". This contains hundreds of examples.

Here is a taste:

("I signed a contract with the government to serve in our military, and proudly, but I never thought that our military would be used in such a self-serving, crooked, and disgraceful way"), remorse ("It didn?t hit me until I saw Fahrenheit 9/11 that I was driving the ship that was sending planes to kill people"), fear ("I am wondering if this is the last Christmas I will spend with my son") and sorrow ("Chris, the dead young man, was a former student of mine. This incredibly stupid war now has a face and a name, and I find I can?t quit crying").

I wrote a letter to Mr. Moore after I returned from Iraq because when I was sent to Iraq in March 2003 and throughout my ten months of service in Baghdad I was extremely upset at fighting a war that was not necessary. When I and my comrades signed up for the Armed Forces we knew war was a possibility, but we trusted that our government and our leaders would only call upon us to risk our lives if war was absolutely necessary and only as a last resort. The Iraq war was not absolutely necessary and was not waged as a measure of last resort. Mr. Moore's recent documentary seemed to echo my sentiment, so I wrote him with some of my thoughts. You will now find some of these thoughts in his book.

Please at least flip through this book in the bookstore, if you can find it. We are real soldiers, and we are really upset at being used in a war that shouldn't be. I wouldn't expect the book to be filled with those soldiers and officers who support the war; generally, a lot of us at one point or another have had to convince ourselves that the war is necessary and good, which is sometimes the only way to keep yourself going. What you will see in the book are those us of who have stopped lying to ourselves, those of us who are now home, and some of us who were lucky enough to get out of the military so we can stop being pawns in a game we don't belong in.

I was lucky to find my way out of the military through special exceptions to stop loss policies, but many members of the military are looking at endless deployments with little time at home with their families; our military is stretched extremely thin, and I am very concerned that if we as a country ever really need the might of our military it won't be there for us.

-Andrew Balthazor Iraq war veteran.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: Alex213]
    #4959725 - 11/20/05 12:30 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

From amazon.com's reader review section on Michael Moore's book Will They Ever Trust Us Again referred to in the previous post --

Quote:

Why Was My Letter Left Out?, May 20, 2005
Reviewer: Chris Emily "Bilbo Baggins" (Atlanta, GA)

I am, and have been, a member of the United States Air Force Reserve for more than 20 years. Over the years, I have been activated numerous times to perform my duties as a Combat Controller. I fought in Operations Desert Storm and Uphold Democracy. I bled for this country as part of Task Force Ranger and in Operation Joint Guardian. And I again answered the call in Afghanistan and Iraq, having completed four separate six month deployments since September 11th.

During my most recent deployments, I had very little downtime to write letters. My wife rarely heard from me. But I took the time to write a letter to michael moore. I pointed out in my letter that morale was very high and that the troops I encountered were proud of their actions in both Afghanistan and Iraq. I provided a list of schools, hospitals and infrastructure facilities that both the US military and our civilian contractors had built, rebuilt or repaired in an ongoing effort to improve the lives of the Iraqi people, a people who have known only oppression their entire lives. I included pictures of the Iraqi people that we met on a daily basis; people with smiles on their faces and genuine hope for their future.

I went further to point out to moore that true Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines, those who understand the nature of combat, feel utter contempt for those who extend their hands to accept the benefits of military service (GI Bill, etc), but recoil at the thought of EARNING these benefits. "I only joined the military to go to school," is not a valid argument against fulfilling one's military obligation. Obviously these people, who do not deserve to wear the uniform, will send you letters vilifying the military and the current administration. Of course their families will do the same. Have you asked them why they suppressed their outrage when Americans were dying at the whim of the United Nations and the Clinton Administration?

All of this leads to an important question; where did my letter go? It goes without saying that my letter did not make the book. I suspect it never made it out of the mailroom. This saddens me, not because I was not in moore's book. It saddens me because those of you who believe yourselves to be "sophisticated and enlightened" do not care. Moore is a hero in your eyes for discarding views in conflict with his own and only providing you with what you want to hear instead of the truth. Shame on you for allowing this. And shame on you, mr. moore, for trivializing the suffering of those who defend you, for your own personal gain. Shame on you for lining your pockets by manipulating your own countrymen. I used to think the Ugly American was someone who hated all foreigners and held his own above all else. I now know that you, mr. moore, are the Ugly American; lying, cheating, scheming against and hating your fellow countrymen because it is profitable.

SMSgt Chris Emily - USAFR, Ret








Phred


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: Phred]
    #4959810 - 11/20/05 12:59 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

"If you want to impress me, go to Baghdad."

Dear Michael Moore:

I must say that you are always on point. I am a soldier serving in Iraq and till this day we still don?t know why we are here.

I sit and watch television and the bull shit that our leaders are feeding to the people on a daily basis. How can you be a President and spend over 800 billions of dollars destroying and rebuilding another country when we need help in our own country? How do you live with yourself knowing that innocent soldiers are dying every day just for you?

Majority of the troops here don?t even have missions, all they do is check people identification cards going into the PX or Hajji Bazaars or cooks working in airports or laundry room because they have civilian caterers to work in the dinning facilities. We are separated from our family, kids, husbands, wives and friends for a year just for the white house to look good. So our leaders can say ?Yes we were the ones that destroyed and rebuild this country spending over 800 billions of dollars and we have veterans that have served their country, lost their legs, arms and their lives to be homeless, eating in shelters and no one gives a dam.

But what?s really gets under my skin is that we are over here fighting for $250.00 extra on our pay check for hazard pay or 225 dollars extra for being away from your families and you pay athletes, entertainers and singers billions of dollars to perform. If it was not for people like us that provide that freedom and give up our lives for that freedom that why are we paid so much less to be in harms way?

Oh yeah, I forgot they raised the life insurance from 250,000 to 400,000 when I die that will really benefit me a lot.

Mr. Bush, why are you wondering why people are getting out of the military regardless of the bonus money that you are throwing their way and why are you forcing soldiers to stay in the army past their time without any say so? I prefer Clinton any day, true he was getting his freak on in the White House, but who hasn?t and if they said they didn?t they would be lying.

This is the worst leadership in the history of leading and to get on national television telling lies about ?They are doing so much over here? is pathetic. How would you know if you only visit places that are not in any type of danger? What is going on in Kuwait? Nothing. If you want to impress me, go to Baghdad where there is suicide bombings everyday where soldiers are dying. Not where you can give a concert and feel good about yourself? You should have known that if you and your brother manipulate the voting system that will stop you from doing the same to the world.

To be honest a lot of military personnel do not have any thing good to say about this Commander in Chief, he has proven to the world that he is truly the biggest fraud that the world has seen.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/willtheyevertrustusagain/index.php?id=35

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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: Phred]
    #4960353 - 11/20/05 03:00 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

At heart, I think that soldier's opinions should count more. The problem is that the US cannot really base foriegn policy on the feelings of the military. Actually, I would argue that many of those that talk about soldiers opinions "meaning more" probably wouldn't like the outcome.

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Offlinesnoopaloop53
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: Catalysis]
    #4960410 - 11/20/05 03:21 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

No, you probably wouldn't like the outcome. The Army teaches us to kill people and blow up thier property. The upside is because we are the best trained, best equiped military conflicts wouldn't last long because all the politics would be non-issues.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: Phred]
    #4960711 - 11/20/05 04:57 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I believe the soldiers' opinions should count more than politicians sitting in Washington. The soldiers are over there fighting, so they see how things are progressing (or regressing), and many times their words are the only ones about war that are not politicized.

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OfflineWhiteBunny
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4960920 - 11/20/05 05:52 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I have to say I think that's ridiculous. First of all if you compare the reasoning of an AVERAGE solder and that of an ivy league politician the results should speak for themselves. I don't mean to undermined the intelligence of our troops but they have their job to execute the orders of the people above them for a reason. Most probably is that they are not in the position to make decision for that of the country. They are not in that position because they are not capable to make those decisions. I for one shouldn't get any more of a voice over a high ranking politician because I am sure there is a reason why they are were they are. All most all the time whether it's a Democrat or a Republican, if there holding a high ranking position it's for a pretty good reason. There is a reason why we have elections and if your not happy with who is making the decision then make a difference then next time around. All of this crying and mooning about a party or office they aren't happy with isn't going change things. Able yourself to spread your believes to have one of your representatives make the decision that you believe are right.

Secondly if anyone who watches Fahrenheit 9/11 and leaves thinking that was not a one sided documentary is crazy. For example if any remembers the part were if you open an account with a bank (I believe a CD account) you get a gun. Moore strolls in to sign a paper and they hand him a gun. What was not included in that little piece is that Moore files papers months ahead of time, submeted to a background check and made arrangements for the gun to be picked up at the bank not the local gun dealer were most guns are picked up for that promotion. Anyone can make a documentary and make it totally one sided and not tell all the details so they appear right.

"The Truth About 'Fahrenheit 9/11'
Tuesday, June 29, 2004


PHOTOS VIDEO



Click image to enlarge
Michael Moore's (search) "Fahrenheit 9/11" broke records this weekend, becoming the first documentary to debut as Hollywood's top weekend film ? but there are holes in the controversial film's story.

For instance, in one often-showed clip, Moore claims that President Bush was on vacation 42 percent of the time during his first several months in office ? but that estimation included weekends at Camp David, a common practice for presidents. Without those days figured in, Bush actually spent 13 percent of his time on vacation.

The movie also criticizes Bush for staying inside a Florida classroom full of kids for a full seven minutes after he learned that the country was under attack on Sept. 11, 2001.

However, the vice chairman of the Sept. 11 commission has said that Bush did the right thing. "Bush made the right decision in remaining calm, in not rushing out of the classroom," said Lee Hamilton, a former Democratic congressman from Indiana.

In "Fahrenheit 9/11" (search) Moore also claims that the White House approved plans for planes to pick up relatives of Usama Bin Laden right after the attacks. But according to terrorism czar Richard Clarke (search), he alone approved the Saudi flights.
ADVERTISEMENTS

In addition, Moore says that the departing Saudis were not properly processed by the FBI when leaving the country. That too is contradicted by the Sept. 11 commission, which said the Saudis were properly interviewed.

Finally, Moore shows prominent members of the Taliban visiting Texas, implying that they were invited by then-Governor Bush. The Taliban delegation, however, was invited to Houston by UNOCAL (search), a California energy company.

Moore also doesn't mention that the visit was made with the permission of the Clinton administration, which twice met with Taliban members ? in 1997 and 1998.

Click on the video box at the top of this story to watch a report by FOX News' William LaJeunesse."

That's my opinion now you tell yours.

WB


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Edited by WhiteBunny (11/20/05 05:58 PM)

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: Phred]
    #4960952 - 11/20/05 06:00 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

only when their opinions confirm ours.


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OfflineWhiteBunny
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: Alex213]
    #4960995 - 11/20/05 06:08 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
"If you want to impress me, go to Baghdad."

Dear Michael Moore:

I must say that you are always on point. I am a soldier serving in Iraq and till this day we still don?t know why we are here.

I sit and watch television and the bull shit that our leaders are feeding to the people on a daily basis. How can you be a President and spend over 800 billions of dollars destroying and rebuilding another country when we need help in our own country? How do you live with yourself knowing that innocent soldiers are dying every day just for you?

Majority of the troops here don?t even have missions, all they do is check people identification cards going into the PX or Hajji Bazaars or cooks working in airports or laundry room because they have civilian caterers to work in the dinning facilities. We are separated from our family, kids, husbands, wives and friends for a year just for the white house to look good. So our leaders can say ?Yes we were the ones that destroyed and rebuild this country spending over 800 billions of dollars and we have veterans that have served their country, lost their legs, arms and their lives to be homeless, eating in shelters and no one gives a dam.

But what?s really gets under my skin is that we are over here fighting for $250.00 extra on our pay check for hazard pay or 225 dollars extra for being away from your families and you pay athletes, entertainers and singers billions of dollars to perform. If it was not for people like us that provide that freedom and give up our lives for that freedom that why are we paid so much less to be in harms way?

Oh yeah, I forgot they raised the life insurance from 250,000 to 400,000 when I die that will really benefit me a lot.

Mr. Bush, why are you wondering why people are getting out of the military regardless of the bonus money that you are throwing their way and why are you forcing soldiers to stay in the army past their time without any say so? I prefer Clinton any day, true he was getting his freak on in the White House, but who hasn?t and if they said they didn?t they would be lying.

This is the worst leadership in the history of leading and to get on national television telling lies about ?They are doing so much over here? is pathetic. How would you know if you only visit places that are not in any type of danger? What is going on in Kuwait? Nothing. If you want to impress me, go to Baghdad where there is suicide bombings everyday where soldiers are dying. Not where you can give a concert and feel good about yourself? You should have known that if you and your brother manipulate the voting system that will stop you from doing the same to the world.

To be honest a lot of military personnel do not have any thing good to say about this Commander in Chief, he has proven to the world that he is truly the biggest fraud that the world has seen.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/willtheyevertrustusagain/index.php?id=35




Don't forget we are at WAR. Which before going to war mot of the nation supported. The battle of the bulge lasted only six weeks and 19,000 troops died. When you go to war you have to understand that there are going to be lives lost. We don't want to be it's something that going to happen. I think Americans got spoiled by the speed of the gulf war.

WB


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: WhiteBunny]
    #4961158 - 11/20/05 06:42 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

military enlistees have little to no training in foreign policiy, or politics in general. I fail to see why their votes should count more.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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OfflineWhiteBunny
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: kotik]
    #4961196 - 11/20/05 06:47 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

kotik said:
military enlistees have little to no training in foreign policiy, or politics in general.  I fail to see why their votes should count more.




:thumbup:

WB


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Edited by WhiteBunny (11/20/05 06:48 PM)

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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: Phred]
    #4961226 - 11/20/05 06:52 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Hey hey! First double post ever.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

Edited by Gijith (11/20/05 06:54 PM)

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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: Phred]
    #4961233 - 11/20/05 06:53 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Certainly, the vast majority of soldiers on the ground understand the nuances of the war better than anyone on Capital Hill or the White House. That said, I'm against allowing them any sort of official say in how the war should be handled. I grew up in some shitty spot and, therefore, have some very dear old friends over there. Obviously, I have a ton of respect for them. But they can't be in charge of making these types of decisions. They're locked into the details. From the discussions I've had with them, they don't care much about the large scale implications of what's going on over there. And they support the current administration 100%.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: Gijith]
    #4961243 - 11/20/05 06:54 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Double post.

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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: kotik]
    #4961379 - 11/20/05 07:28 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

kotik said:
military enlistees have little to no training in foreign policiy, or politics in general. I fail to see why their votes should count more.




And the ones in power right now are doing one hell of a job with those things.......


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks

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Invisiblecateyes
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: Phred]
    #4961398 - 11/20/05 07:31 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

phred... someone raised the point in another thread... are you american?

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Offlinekilgore_trout
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: cateyes]
    #4961465 - 11/20/05 07:43 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

you mean a US citizen, right? Anyone in North, Central, or South America is American.


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"I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."

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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: WhiteBunny]
    #4961651 - 11/20/05 08:33 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Secondly if anyone who watches Fahrenheit 9/11 and leaves thinking that was not a one sided documentary is crazy. For example if any remembers the part were if you open an account with a bank (I believe a CD account) you get a gun. Moore strolls in to sign a paper and they hand him a gun. What was not included in that little piece is that Moore files papers months ahead of time, submeted to a background check and made arrangements for the gun to be picked up at the bank not the local gun dealer were most guns are picked up for that promotion. Anyone can make a documentary and make it totally one sided and not tell all the details so they appear right.




Have you seen Fahrenheit 9/11? The scene you are speaking of is not in that movie.

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: kotik]
    #4961671 - 11/20/05 08:39 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)


military enlistees have little to no training in foreign policiy, or politics in general.


yes they do.


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: Phred]
    #4961898 - 11/20/05 09:39 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think so. They are nothing more than pawns.

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: bukkake]
    #4962006 - 11/20/05 10:04 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think so. They are nothing more than pawns.

i've got friends in the military and i know for a fact that knowledge of the social/political situation and culture in any place they're going to be deployed is definitely a part of their training.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: wilshire]
    #4962132 - 11/20/05 10:33 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

...and every high school student in the US is taught alebra. This doesnt ment every student is a mathematican - quite the contrary.

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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: Vvellum]
    #4962149 - 11/20/05 10:36 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

It is important for soldiers to have a basic understanding of culture as wilshire said, because it can directly relate to how they function in certain combat environments.

But as their opinion counting for anything beyond what their mission entails is ridiculous.

This is all very elementary. As in, this was usually taught at the elementary school. When did you learn about the president, congress, voting, and the military? They all have roles. If this is too complex, I'll stop.


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: looner2]
    #4962201 - 11/20/05 10:45 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I agree - soliders should not guide foriegn policy. I do think their input should be taken.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: Vvellum]
    #4963162 - 11/21/05 08:14 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

It should be taken non-selectively.

That letter from soldiers are endearing, but where are the ones from soldiers who think the war is bullshit?


Who is stopping us from hearing them?


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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4963472 - 11/21/05 10:34 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

No one. There have been plenty trumpeted about here and there. Don't be disingenuous.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: Vvellum]
    #4963499 - 11/21/05 10:40 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

their input is taken, just as other american's is taken...

at the polls.

I don't feel soldier's opinions should be any more or less weighted
than the rest of our's.

the hawks will continue to use pro-war letters.

the pacifics will continue to use anti-war letters.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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OfflineWhiteBunny
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? *DELETED* [Re: Redstorm]
    #4963648 - 11/21/05 11:25 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by WhiteBunny

Reason for deletion: made a mistake



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OfflineWhiteBunny
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: afoaf]
    #4963666 - 11/21/05 11:29 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
their input is taken, just as other american's is taken...

at the polls.

I don't feel soldier's opinions should be any more or less weighted
than the rest of our's.

the hawks will continue to use pro-war letters.

the pacifics will continue to use anti-war letters.




agreed

A friend of mine is in the airforce and his duty is to read messages and then brief them to a 2 star general (he is in intelligence) and we just told him what an ambassador is last week.

WB


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: WhiteBunny]
    #4963694 - 11/21/05 11:34 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

WhiteBunny, the scene you speak of is in Bowling for Columbine.

I'm about 98% sure of that fact.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: WhiteBunny]
    #4963703 - 11/21/05 11:36 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Yes I have and yes it is.

I think you mean Bowling for Columbine.

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OfflineWhiteBunny
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: Alex213]
    #4963729 - 11/21/05 11:42 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I stand corrected. It still speaks for Moores credability doesn't it?

WB


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: WhiteBunny]
    #4963741 - 11/21/05 11:45 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

It's not Moore writing the soldiers letters tho.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: WhiteBunny]
    #4963746 - 11/21/05 11:46 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Don't get me wrong. Moore is an idiot. I just wanted to point out the correct movie you were referring to.

edit: "referring", 1 "f", 2 "r"'s. Derrrrr

Edited by Redstorm (11/21/05 11:54 AM)

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OfflineWhiteBunny
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: Alex213]
    #4963767 - 11/21/05 11:50 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
It's not Moore writing the soldiers letters tho.




True but what he is doing is ignoring probably over 90% of the other soldiers who stand behind the current adminstration and concentrate on the very few who happen to say what he is trying to press on America.


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OfflineWhiteBunny
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4963777 - 11/21/05 11:53 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I agree on bot points.

WB


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: WhiteBunny]
    #4963843 - 11/21/05 12:12 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

WhiteBunny said:
True but what he is doing is ignoring probably over 90% of the other soldiers who stand behind the current adminstration and concentrate on the very few who happen to say what he is trying to press on America.



I'm sure that there are more soldiers who support the war than those who oppose it. However, 90% sounds ridiculously high to me. I picture it being somewhere closer to 60%.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4963937 - 11/21/05 12:49 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

now that's a poll I'd pay to see...


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: afoaf]
    #4964284 - 11/21/05 02:13 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Being a veteran myself, opinions should be heard from troops, on a tactical level (i.e. why was I issued a Vietnam issue Flak jacket, when there are tactical vests around that can withstand a 7.62 x 39 round?)

But as far as strategy...leave that to top ranking officers....


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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: Phred]
    #4965237 - 11/21/05 05:46 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

You cannot have a volunteer group be weighted more than the rest in a vote. It is intrinsically flawed and prone to exploitation.

Other than that, I think the military vote should count more.

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OfflineWhiteBunny
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #4965720 - 11/21/05 08:21 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Being a veteran myself, opinions should be heard from troops, on a tactical level (i.e. why was I issued a Vietnam issue Flak jacket, when there are tactical vests around that can withstand a 7.62 x 39 round?)

But as far as strategy...leave that to top ranking officers....




Great point can I ask when you served? At what range does that vest withstand?

Maybe your greatest threat was shrapnel. Is there any vest to stop the NATO .308 round? 7.62 X 51mm?

WB


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Edited by WhiteBunny (11/21/05 08:27 PM)

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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Should the opinions of soldiers count more? [Re: WhiteBunny]
    #4966227 - 11/21/05 10:18 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

WhiteBunny said:
Is there any vest to stop the NATO .308 round? 7.62 X 51mm?




There are vests that will stop the bullet, but they will not stop the blunt force trauma.

You can find the standards for body armor at the National Institute of Justice website. Do a search in the Publication section for "0101.04".
Or you can Google NIJ 0101.04 and probably get it somewhere else.


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

Edited by daimyo (11/21/05 10:24 PM)

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