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afoaf
CEO DBK?
Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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anti-christian bias
#4951286 - 11/18/05 11:12 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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oreilly closed a segment on wednesday night with a comment, something to the effect of there being a growing anti-christian bias in america.
personally, I don't see it as anti-christian...I see it as pro-secularism. furthermore, I think that the continued, egregious encroachment on personal and private rights and freedoms by the religious right has acted as motivation for those who value secularism in law over legislated morality.
so often I hear...this nation was founded on judeo-christian principles...our founding fathers were all christian!
wrong, they weren't all christian, but more importantly, they had struck out to create this nation as country free from state-sanctioned and enforced religion....a secular state, with protection of the rights of the minority from the tyranny of the majority.
just because it's illegal to kill someone or cheat on your wife makes our system no more christian than muslim, hindu or taoist.
pro-secularism is not anti-christianism
this isn't jesusland, nor was it ever intended to be.
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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Tao
Village Genius
Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
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Re: anti-christian bias [Re: afoaf]
#4951311 - 11/18/05 11:21 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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/end rant
-------------------- Magash's Grain Tek + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: anti-christian bias [Re: afoaf]
#4951314 - 11/18/05 11:22 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Agreed. Ironically, some of the biggest supporters of Jefferson's "wall of separation" were the Baptists. Personally, as a Christian, I hate to see the religious right trying to impose their idea of what Christianity means onto me. Things like intolerance and scientific ignorance are not values Jesus would have supported, IMO. Jesus was an enemy of the religious establishment of his day. Do they really think he would support the establishment of the religious right? He said himself that his kingdom is not of this world.
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afoaf
CEO DBK?
Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: anti-christian bias [Re: Tao]
#4951322 - 11/18/05 11:28 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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srry
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis
Registered: 01/11/05
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Re: anti-christian bias [Re: afoaf]
#4951554 - 11/18/05 12:43 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Like it or not, the VAST MAJORITY of Founding Fathers were Christian and active members of the church......
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/history/us/ah0021.html
Even if you believe that the were Deists.....they still believed in GOD....what about Jefferson's quote about "our Creator"...and so on...
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Ekstaza
stranger than most
Registered: 04/10/03
Posts: 4,324
Loc: Around the corner
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Re: anti-christian bias [Re: SirTripAlot]
#4951862 - 11/18/05 01:52 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Even if you believe that the were Deists.....they still believed in GOD....what about Jefferson's quote about "our Creator"...and so on...
If Darwin would have come along in time for them to examine his work, they most likely wouldn't have been Deists either. The creation theory was all there was back then.
-------------------- YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
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Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: anti-christian bias [Re: SirTripAlot]
#4951886 - 11/18/05 01:58 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Like it or not, the VAST MAJORITY of Founding Fathers were Christian and active members of the church......
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/history/us/ah0021.html
Even if you believe that the were Deists.....they still believed in GOD....what about Jefferson's quote about "our Creator"...and so on...
And yet, most of them believed that religion should not be the basis for politics, nor vice-versa. Being Christian does not mean you support a religious state.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: anti-christian bias [Re: SirTripAlot]
#4951907 - 11/18/05 02:03 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Deists are not Christians. They believe in a "God" or "Higher Power", but not necessarily the Judeo-Christian God.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: anti-christian bias [Re: afoaf]
#4951923 - 11/18/05 02:07 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Christianity loves to play the part of the downtrodden. It was founded in that manner and continues to push that image, even though it is far from the truth.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: anti-christian bias [Re: Ekstaza]
#4951929 - 11/18/05 02:10 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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By the way, here are some quotes from some of the founding fathers:
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all." -- Thomas Paine
"Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!'" -- John Adams
"The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained." -- Thomas Jefferson
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -- James Madison
"It was a Western European civilization that had broken free from the last traces of Empire and Christendom; and it had not a vestige of monarchy left, and no State Religion... The absence of any binding religious tie is especially noteworthy. It had a number of forms of Christianity, its spirit was indubitably Christian; but, as a State document of 1796 expicity declared: 'The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.'" -- Benjamin Franklin, speaking on the founding of America
By the way, the document he refers to was the Treaty of Tripoli, which was written during the Washington administration, and signed during the Adams administration.
In other trivia, the words "In God We Trust" were not added to US currency until 1956, amid the McCarthyite anti-communist hysteria. The words "under God" first appeared in the pledge of allegiance around the same time.
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afoaf
CEO DBK?
Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: anti-christian bias [Re: Silversoul]
#4951945 - 11/18/05 02:15 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm going to keep those on a cheat sheet in my wallet.
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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cateyes
Registered: 12/16/03
Posts: 2,754
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Re: anti-christian bias [Re: Silversoul]
#4952051 - 11/18/05 02:40 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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great post...
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Ekstaza
stranger than most
Registered: 04/10/03
Posts: 4,324
Loc: Around the corner
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Re: anti-christian bias [Re: Silversoul]
#4952052 - 11/18/05 02:41 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Great quotes there. I'd love to throw those up at a few people I know.
What's the source?
-------------------- YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: anti-christian bias [Re: Ekstaza]
#4952063 - 11/18/05 02:46 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ekstaza said: Great quotes there. I'd love to throw those up at a few people I know.
What's the source?
http://dim.com/~randl/founders.htm
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: anti-christian bias [Re: afoaf]
#4952298 - 11/18/05 03:36 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
afoaf said: ...those who value secularism in law over legislated morality.
All laws are legislated morality. I can not think of one law that is not viewed by lawmakers a moral issue.
I do however see where your coming from, and I think your against "christian morality", not "secular morality".
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Ekstaza
stranger than most
Registered: 04/10/03
Posts: 4,324
Loc: Around the corner
Last seen: 11 months, 21 days
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Re: anti-christian bias [Re: DieCommie]
#4952346 - 11/18/05 03:45 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Morals are subjective and depend on who you ask.
One groups morals do not apply to everyone.
As long as I don't seek to be a part of the group, I don't need to accept their morals.
-------------------- YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.
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Los_Pepes
Stranger
Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 731
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Re: anti-christian bias [Re: Ekstaza]
#4952397 - 11/18/05 04:02 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Most Christian fundamentalists I've known were far left. Fundamentalists of any religion are basically narcissistic sociopaths who claim scientific facts aren't true if they conflict with their religious fantasies.
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Los_Pepes
Stranger
Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 731
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Re: anti-christian bias [Re: Ekstaza]
#4952413 - 11/18/05 04:05 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think the idea of the Christian right might be more of a political invention which has proven effective for destroying the commies and fanatic towel heads. Praise Jesus!
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: anti-christian bias [Re: DieCommie]
#4952438 - 11/18/05 04:13 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
afoaf said: ...those who value secularism in law over legislated morality.
All laws are legislated morality. I can not think of one law that is not viewed by lawmakers a moral issue.
I do however see where your coming from, and I think your against "christian morality", not "secular morality".
I think that "secular morality," insofar as the law is concerned, basically comes down to the Golden Rule, though I think that it is put into better terms as John Stuart Mill's harm principle. Basically, the extent to which morals should be legislated should be to stop people from harming one another. Other than that, people can think and do whatever their own values tell them to. The situation gets tricky when it comes to public education, because the job of educating children can come into conflict with religous superstition, particularly where evolution is concerned. In such cases, we need to keep in mind that while you're entitled to your own opinion, you're not entitled to your own facts.
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leery11
I Tell You What!
Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
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Re: anti-christian bias [Re: Silversoul]
#4952785 - 11/18/05 06:04 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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O'reilly gave a commentary on New Years last year.... something to the extent that if the liberals had their way, drugs would be legalized, everything would be unGodly, and the war on terror would be lost.
I'm not exaggerating either..... I don't know how anyone can take this man seriously.
At any rate, we aren't against Christians, we're against them using their religion as a way to enforce strict controls on the ways we live our lives.... and we're very very much against them being able to tell us what to do through legislature.
If we passed laws against being Christian, then they could complain about persecution... all we want is them and their ideology out of GOVERNMENT, they aren't the only fucking religion in this nation, and they shouldn't act like it.
We just want OUR own religious freedom....... imagine how they would feel if everything in the government acknowladged "Allah" .... they'd be pretty pissed off.... equal rights for everyone means that you cannot have a stranglehold over this nation.... the only way to truely have freedom of religion is to have a completely secular state that does not nod its head to any extremist faith groups.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (11/18/05 06:05 PM)
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