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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Flaming [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #4935242 - 11/14/05 11:23 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

TheShroomHermit said:
All ad hominem attacks would be flames. But not all flames are ad hominem attacks.



Wrong. And ad hominem is an argument fallacy which uses who a person is as an argument against their ideas.

Example: "You're a Republican, so what would you know about poverty?"

Is this a flame? I think not. Similarly, a flame need not be an argument at all, and thus not all flames are ad hominems.

Example: "Check your rates, dumbass."


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Flaming [Re: Icelander]
    #4935250 - 11/14/05 11:24 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Rapist has one definition. If I call him a fucking rapist that could be flaming.



Wow you're strict. Can I call you Tipper Gore?


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Invisiblespud
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Registered: 10/07/02
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Re: Flaming [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #4935426 - 11/15/05 12:03 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

He isn't committing an ad hominem simply because he wasn't arguing anything. There was no debate, rather he was merely making an observation.

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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Flaming [Re: spud]
    #4935451 - 11/15/05 12:10 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

What about a statement that is slightly flame-like that includes a large amount of people, not directly named. Something in the manner of "all the british people on this forum cook bad".

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Flaming [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4935473 - 11/15/05 12:14 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Usually you're safer with more general comments. What's great is if they're not a Shroomerite, nothing counts as flaming. I can talk all I want about what an evil dumbfuck piece of shit goat-fucking turd sandwich the president is, and there isn't a goddamn thing they can do to me.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Flaming [Re: Silversoul]
    #4935532 - 11/15/05 12:35 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Unless GWB is a member of the shroomery!!!!! boy, that would fuck up the political forum.

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OfflineMcdoopy
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Re: Flaming [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4936041 - 11/15/05 04:03 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

It sure is fun though.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Flaming [Re: TameMe]
    #4936141 - 11/15/05 06:30 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

TameMe said:
flamming is the ultimate expression of the truth!!!!!


maybe i'm crazy but...

even lying is the ultimate expersion of the truth...

example: if you mind is telling you to deceive another person...then listening to it and actually lying is being more truthful to yourself...

flaming...is expressing your true thoughts/feelings/emotions...

to not flame..is to hide/deceive/lie!!!!!




It's not all about you and your "truth"

It's about having a forum where we can actually debate ideas. Flame wars are distractions and so IMO only show the immaturity (truth) of the flamer.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineTameMe
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Re: Flaming [Re: Icelander]
    #4936249 - 11/15/05 08:02 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:

so it's bad to show one's immaturity?
how can one mature with out knowing (knowing through feedback after expresion) their immaturities?

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OfflineTameMe
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Re: Flaming [Re: TameMe]
    #4936252 - 11/15/05 08:03 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

((as far as i'm concerned...if you're thinking i'm a "god damn mother fucking bastard" then you might as well say it))

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Flaming [Re: TameMe]
    #4936285 - 11/15/05 08:21 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

TameMe said:
:thumbup:

so it's bad to show one's immaturity?
how can one mature with out knowing (knowing through feedback after expresion) their immaturities?




Once again it's not all about you here. Anytime you want to PM me and have a flaming good time, let me know, but here in the forums it can really disrupt the flow of a topic, which is always in danger of going off track anyway.

I agree with you in theory, lets practice it in PM.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Flaming [Re: Icelander]
    #4936286 - 11/15/05 08:22 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I'd get banned if I always said what I was thinking and not just for flaming. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineTameMe
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Re: Flaming [Re: Icelander]
    #4936378 - 11/15/05 08:59 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

good point.


muuuuthaaa fuuuuckaaa

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Flaming [Re: Icelander]
    #4936415 - 11/15/05 09:20 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I think it well could be. If I called you a racist it would feel different than saying you are indulging in racism, or your behavior is racist. I guess it's all in the delivery and intent. Usually you can read the attitude as it bleeds through.




So, after all the forum split and the reduction of subjective rules in this forum, we are once again going to decide what constitutes flaming or not by delivery and intent? Swami must be rolling in his sleep. :shocked: :thumbdown:

Quote:


par?a?site    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (pr-st)
n.
Biology. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.

One who habitually takes advantage of the generosity of others without making any useful return.
One who lives off and flatters the rich; a sycophant.




To follow through with the recent example that this thread has branched off of, the person in question openly admitted to undergoing action that fits this definition of a word perfectly. Is there anyone here that is going to dispute this fact? Come on, anybody? :smirk:

Therefore, using a word that describes perfectly the situation that this person in question has admitted to being in is not out of bounds. What arguement has been presented agansit this?

Quote:


Yup, it has a negative personal connotation. If that was the only word that described this behavior that would be one thing but I don't know of anyone who wouldn't take the word leech personally unless they were enlightened to some extent and you could say anything to them and they wouldn't care.




It doesn't matter how the person will take it. Haven't we been through all of this already? We specificially went through a huge fucking hassle in order to make it so that it doesn't matter how the person will take it in this forum. How the person takes it doesn't constitute the statement as being a flame. Its what was said itself, and in this case, the dictionary has proven that using such a word as it was used, in the situation that it was used, is apt and just.

Now, can it be anymore clear than that? :lol:

I will now carry on and read the rest of the replies. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineAnnom
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Re: Flaming [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4936548 - 11/15/05 10:11 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I learned from the Work thread that it's pretty hard to decide what is a flame and what isn't in this forum. The flames in the Psychedelic Experience are always clear flames, but in a forum like P&S the discussion can get personal, without going off-topic or ad hominem, if someone uses a personal situation or experience as an example and other people react or label that situation or experience.

You guys even use words I've never heard of :tongue: (Dutch is my first language) and while I always use an online dictionary it's hard to find out if something is a flame because I don't know how the word is used in normal language.

I agree with fireworks_god on the following:

Quote:

it doesn't matter how the person will take it. Haven't we been through all of this already? We specificially went through a huge fucking hassle in order to make it so that it doesn't matter how the person will take it in this forum. How the person takes it doesn't constitute the statement as being a flame. Its what was said itself, and in this case, the dictionary has proven that using such a word as it was used, in the situation that it was used, is apt and just.




I once had problems at highschool because I had a (word)fight with a girl for a long time, but she ended up crying at the principal. The principal called my parents and said that I was bullying a girl at school etc, etc... while she said equal bad things to me, but I didn't care as much as she. That's not fair IMO.

I'm listening to what you all have to say about flaming in this forum!

Edited by Annom (11/15/05 10:11 AM)

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Flaming [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4936549 - 11/15/05 10:11 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

This forum is debate oriented and designed for those who seek a lively discussion full of dissenting opinions and rebutted arguments. Personal attacks will not be tolerated.




If we are here, by agreement, to debate ideas, why allow negative personalisms AT ALL?

This goes beyond what budsicle's lifestyle choices are. If it is OK to focus our remarks on the poster, rather than on the beliefs/ideas presented by said poster, then this forum will degenerate into a flame war, IMO.

I agree that the subjective nature of personalisms makes it nearly impossible to distinguish intent. So why not leave them out entirely?

If I say, "welfare fraud puts an undue burden on the employed. I resent the fact that a portion of the taxes I pay from my hard-earned wages go to support able-bodied citizens." That may lead into a civil debate.

If I say "OK, leech-boy, your sickening lifestyle is enslaving the superior working class citizens of this country & you need to get off your lazy ass and get a job!" That seems likely to lead into a flame war.

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OfflineAnnom
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Re: Flaming [Re: Veritas]
    #4936582 - 11/15/05 10:22 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

If we are here, by agreement, to debate ideas, why allow negative personalisms AT ALL?




Because people sometimes use their personal situation or experience as an example, while it still is on topic. People are allowed to give their opinion about this personal situation or experience if it is part of the thread topic.

It doesn't make sense if someone is just telling someone to "shut the fuck up you stupid bunny". But if someone tells us how he/she doesn't allow asian people in his/her store because they are asians, it is totally on topic and an allowed reaction to let this person know that he is a racist. I don't think it is need that you say "In my opinion you are a racist in that particular situation", in my opinion isn't needed in a philosophy forum, because everything you say is your opinion and I think we are all smart enough to understand that.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Flaming [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4936587 - 11/15/05 10:24 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Since this appears to be the topic for the discussion of what was going on in the other thread, I will continue here with something that I feel gets to the point of what is going on over here. :grin:

Quote:

Veritas said:
Yes, I believe that ethics and morality are part of spirituality.  If you, or any other member here, chooses to sit in judgment of another member, that is your business.  However, if said judgment is expressed in the form of a personal attack, I will object.




I do not believe it was expressed in the form of a personal attack, as the word that was expressed itself implies nothing other than what the dictionary defines it to imply, and that its usage in the context of the post and the situation was certainly applicable. References towards the person using the word as being angry and upset lie seperate from all of this, and in terms of the rules of this forum, are baseless and do not constitute flaming themselves. The viewpoint as it was originally stated was casual and accepting of such behavior, and one single word illustrated the true nature of the behavior. Is it easier to say "a person who is receiving funds from a structure but who does not contribute or act as a part of that structure, but who feels superior to that structure for taking advantage it", or, simply, invoke either the word "parasite" or "leech", which instantly conveys the exact same meaning? :lol:

In regards to the first section of the quotation, I do not understand how the person themselves can lie seperate from their behavior, their spirituality, and the concepts of morality and ethics. That is sincerely baffling. :confused: Obviously personal attacks on a person are out of bounds, but it is entirely conducive to productive, on-topic discussion to call into question the person as they relate to their expressed ideas, their concepts of spirituality, as they are the source of these thoughts and concepts.

Thus, as I have seen no actual flaming occur throughout this incident (with the possible exception of all of the couch pictures :lol:), but only subjective intrepretations of how words might have negative connotations (despite that they accurately represent the situation :smirk:) and concern on how people might take certain things, I simply suggest that we move on and keep our eyes open for actual flames, such as "fuck you faggot", "you fucked your grandmother", or, the classic, "are you related to George W. Bush? :shocked:". We removed subjectivity from our forum rules for a damned good reason. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Flaming [Re: Veritas]
    #4936648 - 11/15/05 10:42 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

This forum is debate oriented and designed for those who seek a lively discussion full of dissenting opinions and rebutted arguments. Personal attacks will not be tolerated.




If we are here, by agreement, to debate ideas, why allow negative personalisms AT ALL?

This goes beyond what budsicle's lifestyle choices are. If it is OK to focus our remarks on the poster, rather than on the beliefs/ideas presented by said poster, then this forum will degenerate into a flame war, IMO.

I agree that the subjective nature of personalisms makes it nearly impossible to distinguish intent. So why not leave them out entirely?

If I say, "welfare fraud puts an undue burden on the employed. I resent the fact that a portion of the taxes I pay from my hard-earned wages go to support able-bodied citizens." That may lead into a civil debate.

If I say "OK, leech-boy, your sickening lifestyle is enslaving the superior working class citizens of this country & you need to get off your lazy ass and get a job!" That seems likely to lead into a flame war.




Quote:

Redstorm said:
Perhaps, instead of having "No Flaming" as the only rule in S&P, it should be "No ad hominem attacks".



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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Flaming [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4936753 - 11/15/05 11:14 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Well said, Fireworks. :thumbup:




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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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