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 Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
 
Registered: 04/20/01
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 Psychedelics and enlightenment   1
#492885 - 12/16/01 01:15 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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This post is very similar to Kids post about psychedelics and enlightenment. The reason I started a new thread is because I think I have something very important to say.
Some people think that psychedelic drugs are a tool for enlightenment.
Some people do not think that. People who don't think psychedelic drugs are a tool for enlightenment have some convincing arguements, but I think I have answers to those arguements. Here are some of their arguements, and my response.
"People thought psychedelics were the answer to enlightenment in the 60's, but it didn't work". I think the reason why it "didn't work" was because the government and the government controlled media simply said......"it didn't work". The government made LSD illegal on 10-6-66(666) as well as the others by the end of the 60's, stopped LSD research, hassled psychedelic enthusiasts, destroyed past research and stopped future reseach in the field. It was a self-fulfilling prophecy. They MADE it not work, then said...."see...that shit didn't work".
"Look at all the hippies who have tripped 300 times. They aren't enlightened." Well psychedelic drugs are a tool or a vehicle like any other. Take cars for instance. Just because you and your friends have never driven to Florida, doesn't mean that you can't drive to Florida with a car.
"Look at all the people who have gotten fucked up and destroyed their lives" Just because people get in car wrecks doesn't mean that cars aren't good transportation. People like Timothy Leary, Richard Alpert, Ralph Metzner, Aldous Huxley and Gerald Heard(sp) were begining to learn how to use these very complex states of conciousness, and once their abiltity to continue that research was ended, people who use these drugs were ON THIER OWN.
"Psychedelics just make you think you're enlightened, but once it's over, it's over"That's bullshit. What they are is a PREVIEW of enlightenment. They take away your "filter of conditioning" that we all have for a short while and show you life in a new way. You should not expect anyone to be automatically enlightened. It's a long process, and these drugs HELP you. They are not instant enlightenment. You may need to "refresh" yourself.
"The hippies in the 60's started to fuck up their lives when they started to use harder drugs" Oh well. To make an omlet, you have to break a few eggs. Eventually people would realize which drugs will help and which drugs can hurt. Also, I think it would have been worth it to lose those people. So what if 1 out of 10 heads turns into a heroin addict. If peace and love could have spread throughout the world, then BILLIONS of lives would be saved in the long run.
"People who claim to be 'peace and lovenicks' don't act enlightened sometimes"Yeah? Well guess what, these people are HUMAN. These drugs do NOT offer INSTANT enlightenment. We are human, and have weaknesses. Only someone with Buddah conciousness could stop themselves from slipping up now and again.
"People who were 'on the psychedelic bus'(so to speak) in the 60's, later abandoned that philosophy. This is evendence that it doesn't work"Nope. These people got confused once they were told that 'it didn't work', plain and simple. Also, it was probably too hard for them to continue with this line of thinking and living once it fell out of popularity.
I could go on and on with this.
If you were in the middle of building a house, and the government stopped you before you could finish, you can't say that houses can't be built.
GIMMIE SHELTER!!!!!!!!
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Mp3 of the month: Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish
Edited by Learyfan (09/27/11 12:39 PM)
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 Kid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 2,365
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 Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
#492973 - 12/16/01 02:48 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm first curious to hear you definition of Enlightenment.
In my post I made no attempt to try and say whether Enlightenment was possible, I was just interpreting the cultural symbols surrounding it.
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 34,213
Loc: High pride!
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Kid]
#493048 - 12/16/01 04:04 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Oh I wasn't saying that you said that. I was responding mostly to the people who responded to your post, and to all kinds of reasons people use to say psychedelics don't open the doors of perception.
Enlightenment is a hard word to define. I think enlightenment is when one becomes aware of a higher truth and a higher goal for life.
What that truth is, varies from person to person, but the overall basis for enlightenment for ME, is that
We are all one with God
There is no hell or devil
Love is all there is
If you want to despute any of those ideas, start a new thread, but I do think people can access general states of enlightenment by removing thier "filter of conditioning" for a short while by using psychedelic drugs.
I believe that the crackdown on psychedelic drugs is possibly the biggest conspiracy in the history of mankind. In the 60's they almost woke everyone up. Now those doors are shut to most people.
Quite sad.
Edited by Learyfan (09/27/11 12:44 PM)
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 34,213
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 5 hours, 6 minutes
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 Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
#494581 - 12/18/01 06:02 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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You gotta be kidding me. This post is gold.
I must be out of my fucking mind or something. How come i'm the only one who this makes any sense to?
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Mp3 of the month: Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish
Edited by Learyfan (09/27/11 12:45 PM)
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alienmindscape
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
#494784 - 12/18/01 11:57 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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"I must be out of my fucking mind or something. How come i'm the only one who this makes any sense to?"
Nah man, I agree with you. Read my posts in kid's psychedelics and enlightenment thread. I said a lot of the same shit that you're saying. By the way, I've also read "Storming Heaven," and I learned a shitload from that book. Great stuff. Thing is, apparently, that you and I have done our research and read up on the psychedelic literature. We can benefit from the experimentation and wisdom of people like Huxley, Heard, Metzner, Leary, McKenna (I think he's great, no matter what Murple says)?
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Food
---Beast---
Registered: 12/10/01
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
#495685 - 12/19/01 06:12 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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I almost totally agree with you - and I must say that I think that one who is not enlightened would not be able to define enlightnenment or understand it meaning .
Your post makes alot of sense to me but I dont have much time to post at the moment GTG I'll post on this again later .
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--------mushworld.com-----More info than you can throw a stick at-
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Kid
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Food]
#496074 - 12/19/01 03:34 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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> I almost totally agree with you - and I must say that I think that one who is not enlightened would not be able to define enlightnenment or understand it meaning .
So, basically you can't define a club until you're in it? (an analogy would be that the Free Masons could not be definied except only by their members). What an exclusive club the Enlightened ones belong to. I guess the lost eastern esoterica is to remain esoteric, but transfered to the Western psychedelia.
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informer
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
#496113 - 12/19/01 04:25 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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is your ego to big to post this post where the discussion started ?
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 34,213
Loc: High pride!
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 Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: alienmindscape]
#496823 - 12/20/01 09:31 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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alienmindscape: Great that you've read Storming Heaven. That book the the key to understanding this whole situation.
food: Thank you for the compliment, but Kid is right, you don't have to be a chicken to know what an egg is. I don't want this post to start to deviate into a debate about that.
informer: No, my ego isn't too big. This post deserved it's own thread. The point was slightly different than Kids thread, and important enough that I didn't want it to get lost in the shuffle on Kids thread, and have his thread deviate into what this thread is supposed to be. I couldn't think of anything else to call it, so it looks almost identical as well.
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Mp3 of the month: Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish
Edited by Learyfan (09/27/11 12:46 PM)
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D_Tox
Boddhisattva
Registered: 10/31/01
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
#497068 - 12/20/01 03:15 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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take a psychedelic and live for a night
become enlightened and live for your life
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D_Tox
to understand other people….to be aware
to understand animals….to be a decent person
to understand plants….. to be a refined individual
to understand the mushroom…to be enlightened
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Roger_irrelevant
War's boring,change thechannel!
Registered: 11/22/01
Posts: 668
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment *DELETED* [Re: D_Tox]
#497174 - 12/20/01 05:38 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Post deleted by Roger_irrelevantReason for deletion: archive
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We are the music makers, We are the dreamers of dreams...
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Angelina
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 Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
#498074 - 12/21/01 05:22 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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What a great post. I disagree with your definition of enlightenment, as I see battles between good and evil all around me. However, I think that only supports your ideas, as "enlightenment" is a very personal thing, and it means different things to different people. I've never tried shrooms (I'm here because I'm curious), but I know my entire life has changed since I first tried exstasy almost a year ago. Using cerain drugs seems to plug you into the universe, and it doesn't dissolve once sobriety hits; you can hold onto it. (FYI, I don't use x in the typical manner, at a club dancing all night; for me it's a small group of close friends, comfortable surroundings, and an opening up to the universe and the truth).
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 34,213
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 5 hours, 6 minutes
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Roger: I'm not sure if i've said it in THIS thread here, but I have said that psychedelics are instant enlightenment, however they are NOT permanent enlightenment most of the time.
D tox: I am trying to inch my way towards some sort of enlightenment through psychedelics. I've made it a LONG way to bud, with the help of the "Conversations with God" book series.
Angelina: Take a look at my post again. I did say "the overall basis for enlightenment for ME, is". It's a very hard word to define. It IS different for everyone. Very true. May I ask which psychedelics you've used besides ecstacy? I think that is a good start. It introduces you to states of mind like that. It makes me feel good to know that someone actually has started on the road you're on because of ecstacy because it's a drug that many people are able to use without even changing slightly. I think you REALLY SHOULD grow shrooms now. Shrooms have done so much for me. I can't put into words how important they've been to my emotional growth and understanding. I've only recently begun growing my own, so hopefully i'll be able to put it into better words later. Also, they're a WHOLE lot healthier than X. I think it's time you graduate from that shit.
Edited by Learyfan (09/27/11 12:47 PM)
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Xyrico
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
#504415 - 12/29/01 10:39 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Drugs merely create an illusion of enlightenment; they do not even give a 'taste' of it. What they show is an altered state of mind, the exact same reality only through slightly different eyes. They are a product of our society's consumerist instant-gratification principles.
"Take this pill and you'll feel just like Buddha. Take two and you'll talk face-to-face with God."
People who claim they use drugs as a spiritual cataclyst are first and foremost lying to themselves. In truth, some are just incapable of living the spiritual path-- thus they turn to outside means as a sort of last-ditch effort. Others are genuinely intersted in transcending their everyday condition, yet are mistakingly led to believe that drugs can accelerate or enhance this process. Drugs, just like money and cars, are material objects, and thus impermanent. It is a dubious thing indeed, to use such mundane worldly things to attain a real higher state of consciousness.
It's just an illusion created by your mind in response to an outside substance, nothing more. The biggest deception is not the hallucinations. It is the belief that these hallucinations hold anything of significance. Those who believe that their lives have been enhanced by drugs in any sort of meaningful way are living a lie, plain and simple. You're welcome to continue living this lie. By all means, go ahead. A good analogy would be schizophrenia-- a mental patient's convictions hold all the importance in the world to him, yet to him alone. And nobody ever labels schizophrenics as 'enlightened'.
You'll learn just as much from a thousand acid trips, as from one. If you're truly wise, the most important thing you'll learn is that it's just a very complicated version of an electrode attached to the pleasure centres of your brain. It shows you exactly what you need to see to make your life seem happy, fulfilling, enlightened, transcended, whatever you want to call it. But it's really just a wire jammed into your skull, a product of the same reality which you seem so intent to break free from.
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Food
---Beast---
Registered: 12/10/01
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Xyrico]
#504638 - 12/30/01 06:02 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Interesting post Xyrico but I am afraid that I must heartily disagree with you .
1) First of all I would like to say to you that categorizing drugs as physical things in the same way as you might a peice of wood is foolish as you dont seem to realise that every naturally occuring feeling you have ever felt is directly linked to the chemical composition and physical structure and state of your brain (I am not saying that these are the only causes - just some of them). And directly comparing drugs to cars is so unbeleivable fool hardy(in my view ) that it actually serves to annoy me .
I have personally never felt as though I have become enlightened at any one point in my life (on drugs or not) and I have tripped many times before and spent much time in forcibly altered states of consciousness .
I have however created many USEFUL theories about things to do with life whilst under the power of illegal drugs .
And I will not just claim to have these theories without backing myself up . If you want I will explain my answer to a question I pondered once whilst watching my bathroom change shape and turn into another form : the question was : What is the fundamental difference between something which is alive and something which is not alive ?
I have an exact answer - think about it yourself - what is it that differentiates between the two ?
You also say that those who believe that their lives have been enhanced by drugs in any sort of meaningful way are living a lie, plain and simple .
Well listen to this little tale then - I was once a materialistic positivist who thought that all things were logically explainable and I spent considerable time pondering the nature of reality from a "purely logical thought pattern" point of view .
And I became dissollusioned with my ideas as they were based on pure logic and any logical argument requires an asumption of some sort, yet I would always question the validity of the assumption - so I therefore could never come to a complete conclusion and became upset that I could not logically explain the reason for my existence .
Then I tripped on magic mushrooms for the first time and couldnt think of anything but the meaningfulness of life itself - and whilst this was for me at the time a terrifying experience of enormous proportions it caused me to begin to realise the error of my way in terms of reasoning and have since abandoned my belief in the purely logical, chemical explanation for consciousness and have left behind this depressing existence as a materialist who could not understand love .
And consequently I am much happier and not obsessed with trying to understand everything right now .
I would certainly say that that is an improvement and that the shrooms worked as a direct cause of change in my thinking patterns in a positive way .
How do you reply to that ?
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--------mushworld.com-----More info than you can throw a stick at-
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Food
---Beast---
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 Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Kid]
#504643 - 12/30/01 06:14 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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In reply to Kid: I am not saying that these people are in some sort of club . And I myself do not claim to be enlightened - neither am I trying to insult anyone who does not know EXACTLY what it is to be enlightened .
Can YOU define it ? - Being precise, exact, and perfectly accurate . ??
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--------mushworld.com-----More info than you can throw a stick at-
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
#504647 - 12/30/01 06:23 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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If one did a survey, I would guess that the people that believe drugs are a path to enlightenment would be significantly younger than those who don't. Why? Experience and disillusionment.
I think the reason why it "didn't work" was because the government and the government controlled media simply said......"it didn't work".
You make some valid points, but this is not one of them. It didn't work (if in fact it is possible) because the tools were not used in the right social context. Hence, when the drugs wore off, they were just as selfish and petty as before.
The hippies were not much different than today's younger generation. They basically tripped to escape or party and to rebel against authority.
Your car analogies are evidence of a deep-thinking, searching mind. However, an analogy is not necessarily a truth and driving really has nothing in common with tripping. When travelling one usually has a destination in mind, with supplies and a map and a large degree of control. Tripping is more of a "let's see what happens" type of experience" where control is minimal and destination is unknown.
These people got confused once they were told that 'it didn't work', plain and simple. Also, it was probably too hard for them to continue with this line of thinking and living once it fell out of popularity.
Again, like your first point, I believe that you are mistaken. It had absolutely nothing to do wth media manipulation. What generally happened was that many people became parents and found that exploring the nether-world did not pay the bills. The call of everyday reality became much stronger. Of course the fear of prison (an artificial by-product of psychedelic usage) increases dramatically when on has to place others before oneself.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 34,213
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Xyrico]
#504750 - 12/30/01 11:12 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Alright, a challenge. Cool.
I'll quote you Xyrico, and then respond:
Drugs merely create an illusion of enlightenment
This a matter of opinion, just like my opinion that they do provide temporary enlightenment which can put one ON THE ROAD to enlightenment
They are a product of our society's consumerist
instant-gratification principles.
True. I'm a regular American kid, 23 years old, and I grew up like all people my age, with food from a microwave, TV & home video games and all sorts of instant gradificational products. The only way you're going to wake up a regular American kid who only cares about who won last nights game and whats on TV is through an instant gradificational enlightenment tool. There's no way I could be where I am at through books and teachers. I would not have gone for that shit. There's no way I could have seen any benifit in being enlightened(which I DO NOT claim to be yet).
People who claim they use drugs as a spiritual cataclyst are first and foremost lying to themselves
No, some are lying, some are real about it, and some are real but don't know how to explain this extremely complicated subject(who can really??)
In truth, some are just
incapable of living the spiritual path-- thus they turn to outside means as a sort of last-ditch effort
This could be true for some people. It is true in my case. I hated life because I could not understand why it's worth going through all of the hell you have to go through. In a last ditch effort, I started to smoke pot, read books like "Conversations with God", and take psychedelics which gave my life meaning.
Food did most of the replying for the rest of your post, most of which is just personal opinon as is mine. Food made a good point. Everything that happens to us is the result of a chemical reaction.
If I say "I'm in love with that girl", you can't say "no, it's not love, it's the result of a natural drug in your brain called PEA which does blah blah blah". One chemical reaction is no less valid than another.
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Mp3 of the month: Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish
Edited by Learyfan (09/27/11 12:48 PM)
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 34,213
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 5 hours, 6 minutes
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 Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#504767 - 12/30/01 11:58 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Now i'll reply to Swami(you really should change your name to "Devils Advocate" for the shroomery  )
It didn't work (if in fact it is possible) because the tools were not
used in the right social context. Hence, when the drugs wore off, they were just as selfish and petty as before.
I agree. This was a big part of the problem, but police and governent harassment also threw a BIG monkey wrench in the gears as well.
The hippies were not much different than today's younger generation. They basically tripped to escape or party and to rebel against authority.
I don't think so at all. When psychedelics were "new" in the 60's. Most of the people who used them at first were using them for personal and spritual enlightnment tools. They regonized their potential for opening the doors of perception, and seeing past what was becoming an increasingly "plastic" world.
Now todays generation has grown up with a preconcieved notion about these drugs, that they make you act "crazy", and that they were something the flower children "mistakenly" thought was a tool of enlightenment, as if it's a foregone conclusion that they don't really do anything but make you think crazy thoughts and kill yourself.
Tripping is more of a "let's see what happens" type of experience" where control is minimal and destination is unknown.
For some yes, but for me, I had a pretty concrete theory of what life is about by reading the "Converstions" series, and some other stuff, so I did have a road map. To a certain degree you are right though, it's very unpredictable, but if you have a fairly solid life paradigm, you can always keep your eye on the prize and be able to understand what's going on a little better.
It(the "failing" of flower power) had absolutely nothing to do wth media manipulation
No it had a lot to do with that. The media jumped at any fucking chance they could to give psychedelics a bad name. They made propaganda films, inundated the public with stories about "The Dark Side of Hippy Life", the biggest of which was the Charles Manson case. That's where the culture got a REALLY BAD name from. They put ol' Charlie's face on the TV in magazines etc etc in order to associate LSD with murder and crime, and make the "streight people" more and more weary of this unfamiliar way of life. They always put headlines all over the papers about LSD murders(which were extremely rare), LSD freakouts(which were very rare), etc.. These were astonishingly safe drugs as far as violence goes compared with alcohol, but did they ever say shit about the thousands of crimes that are fueled by alcohol? Hell no they didn't. They had a mission, and that mission was to slowly change public opinion on these chemicals in a negative way.
I do appriciate your opinion though, it helps me more deeply understand what i'm talking about, and be more prepared for questions like these that i'll always have to answer.
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Mp3 of the month: Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish
Edited by Learyfan (09/27/11 12:49 PM)
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Kid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 2,365
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Food]
#504781 - 12/30/01 12:26 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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> In reply to Kid: I am not saying that these people are in some sort of club . And I myself do not claim to be enlightened - neither am I trying to insult anyone who does not know EXACTLY what it is to be enlightened .
Can YOU define it ? - Being precise, exact, and perfectly accurate . ??
No, but that's what I find problematic about your answer too. If I could define it, I could become enlightened. Since I cannot define it, I cannot be enlightenment.
In my opinion, most people who use the term "Enlightenment" aren't refering to the actual experience itself: they are referring to the resulting life of bliss which they foresee themselves living afterwards as a result of that experience.
So, I guess that's my definition of Enlightenment: an experience which produces bliss for the rest of one's life.
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