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Shop: Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Posts: 23,576
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Re: Work [Re: Icelander]
    #4938692 - 11/15/05 07:11 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not talking about responsibility for beliefs. I'm talking about the actual consequences of one's actions. The fact is that welfare does place a burden on the taxpayers, and that if you do go on welfare, others have to foot the bill for you. Do you deny this? If so, why? If not, then do you think that it might be a good idea to recognize that you are being a burden on others, and try to take responsibility for this? The responsible thing to do, in such a situation, would be to stop being a burden on them ASAP. Also, I have never said that you must work within "the system." I am all for alternative lifestyles, as long as they do not impose a burden on others who have not agreed to bear that burden.

As far as the teachings of psychedelics, one thing they have taught me is that we are interconnected, and that our actions affect others. This is why I try to minimize the burden I impose on others. It would be nice if others saw things the same way.


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Work [Re: Silversoul]
    #4938818 - 11/15/05 07:33 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

As far as the teachings of psychedelics, one thing they have taught me is that we are interconnected, and that our actions affect others. This is why I try to minimize the burden I impose on others. It would be nice if others saw things the same way.

Yes! This is a major point in Keyes' Handbook to Higher Consciousness, that by trying to control outside events based on your own personal addictions, you create a snowball effect of negativity and control. Whereas if you are unconditionally loving and accepting of everyone and everything, regardless of whether or not it fits your personal desires and addictions, then you can start a snowball of positivity and love.


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"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Work [Re: Silversoul]
    #4938819 - 11/15/05 07:33 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not talking about the imaginary consequences of my action. :tongue:

I simply don't care about a system I don't believe in. You don't seem to get what I'm saying. I don't care about the burden on the taxpayers. (I am a taxpayer by the way) I don't care about the system that they support with their energy. Why would I care about the outcome one way or another. It's all an interesting dream at best. It doesn't even matter to me anymore. Go to war, stay home, pollute the planet, or become an environmentalist. It's all the same to me. Be a democrat or a republican or a libertarian. I don't care. If the country goes under or survives another 10,000 years. I don't really care. See that's what I'm saying. I don't have any real investment in your belief system. It's fine for you, good, not for me, good. We can debate it all. (for fun) but I don't care about it because it's not what my life has become on my personal path.

Is that a clearer picture of my views on this?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Work [Re: Icelander]
    #4938901 - 11/15/05 07:51 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Is that a clearer picture of my views on this?



My impression is that you are a nihilist, correct?


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Work [Re: Icelander]
    #4938932 - 11/15/05 07:57 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I am far from having worked through all my ego games. Those plants taught me anyway, and now what I see seems self evident to me.

Who knows?




Yeah, I think it's impossible to completely break free of ego games so long as one has a human body. Even the Buddha came across temptation after his enlightenment. Perhaps Jesus was more lucky?

Actually, I just picked up a good looking book called "After the Ecstasy, the Laundry" by Jack Kornfield, which discusses this topic in depth.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Work [Re: Icelander]
    #4938947 - 11/15/05 08:00 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I don't want to you take this personally (though I don't know if that will be possible), but I belief your opinion stated above is disgusting in pretty much every form possible.

There are people that have no choice but be caught up in the system. How can you not feel sympathy or at least pity for the people who have no choice but fall into this automated system?

If you don't take part in that belief system in particular, what is yours?

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Work [Re: Silversoul]
    #4938965 - 11/15/05 08:04 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Is that a clearer picture of my views on this?



My impression is that you are a nihilist, correct?




No, but some aspects of that belief system fit.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Work [Re: dblaney]
    #4938969 - 11/15/05 08:04 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Veritas loves that book. I have read parts of it. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Work [Re: Redstorm]
    #4939016 - 11/15/05 08:16 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
I don't want to you take this personally (though I don't know if that will be possible), but I belief your opinion stated above is disgusting in pretty much every form possible.

There are people that have no choice but be caught up in the system. How can you not feel sympathy or at least pity for the people who have no choice but fall into this automated system?

If you don't take part in that belief system in particular, what is yours?




:lol: No, I don't take it personaly. You're entitled. :thumbup:

I don't know weather people have a choice or not because I can't get inside their heads and hearts.  But I have a choice and this is it.

I feel great empathy for the suffering of all mankind. Including yours and mine. In fact I have my beliefs because of my empathy. They are part of my "path with heart".

My beliefs? I believe we are dreaming. I believe we are distracting ourselves from becomming lucid in this dream. I like Crowleys quote. " I am seperated for the sake of Love. For the chance of union."

I like that Jesus said I come to bring a sword. I like the quote my shamanic friend says "The Universe asks just one thing of us. How much can  you take?"

I believe that we live in fear of the power we have and so choose to sleep. The dream of the culture.

Hitler said  " When I hear the word culture, I reach for my revolver." :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Registered: 10/08/02
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Re: Work [Re: Icelander]
    #4939072 - 11/15/05 08:28 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Fair enough. I think I misunderstood what you were saying initially. I took it as saying you didn't care about them b/c they were not part of your system. I see I was incorrect, though.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Work [Re: Redstorm]
    #4939099 - 11/15/05 08:36 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I know, I'm glad we are clear on this. I do the best I can. My vision for myself and humanity may be different, but it's because I am who I am. I would love to see a lot more joy and a lot less suffering in this dream. But I accept it as is, and I worry a lot less because I believe this is only a dream. I (my ego self) is not the dreamer. The Passion Play.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
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Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
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Re: Work [Re: budsicle]
    #4939520 - 11/15/05 10:07 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Budsicle, do you realize that there is a totally legit and effective way that you could carry on your "lifestyle", called passive income? People do this through real estate all over the world. But, what may deter you from such a choice, is that it initially takes alot of decent and hard work, which of course, is far outweighed by the multitude of long-term benefits and pros that come along with such assets.

Here, play a game while you think about it:
http://www.compfused.com/directlink/948/

:smile:


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Invisiblebudsicle
s?igh?tsee?r

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 232
Re: Work [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4939579 - 11/15/05 10:19 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

hey skorpivo, thanks for the suggestion. few things i have to point out though.

you guys dont know enough about me to talk about my "lifestyle", all that you know is that i happen to get money from welfare.. but i also happen to go to school @afternoons and get degree this winter, work daily for my plan to drop out (but this work is not forced labor), i am also a tax payer coz its been only a bit over month since i quit my last full-time 40hrs a week job.

so it amuses me how much shit i got from the trivial detail like welfare. this proves how crazy fukin prejudices people have about someone who gets money from welfare. :/
edit: and obviously this hatred seems to stem from work, thus i must again come to the conclusion that work is bad for ya :wink:

Edited by budsicle (11/15/05 10:28 PM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Work [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4939596 - 11/15/05 10:23 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Based on the economic insights I've gained over the years, I'd say real estate is not the harmless enterprise that people think it is. In Progress and Poverty Henry George explains why land speculation and private collection of land rents are two of the biggest causes of poverty, by lowering wages and employment, raising the cost of living, promoting urban sprawl, and absorbing public spending. Essentially, land rents are a socially created value that is appropriated by private landowners. Although it may not be readily apparent to most land speculators, they are in fact mooching off of society on a greater scale than welfare recipients.


--------------------

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Work [Re: Silversoul]
    #4939600 - 11/15/05 10:24 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Is that a clearer picture of my views on this?



My impression is that you are a nihilist, correct?




Actually Taoist comes pretty close to my views.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
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Posts: 9,954
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Re: Work [Re: Silversoul]
    #4939770 - 11/15/05 11:03 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Uh huh. I see... And I'm curious, if you'd care to cut to the heart of this particular matter, could you tell me what you and Henry George propose us real estate owners/speculators/rent collectors do?




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Work [Re: Icelander]
    #4939808 - 11/15/05 11:10 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I'm not talking about the imaginary consequences of my action. :tongue:

I simply don't care about a system I don't believe in. You don't seem to get what I'm saying. I don't care about the burden on the taxpayers. (I am a taxpayer by the way) I don't care about the system that they support with their energy. Why would I care about the outcome one way or another. It's all an interesting dream at best. It doesn't even matter to me anymore. Go to war, stay home, pollute the planet, or become an environmentalist. It's all the same to me. Be a democrat or a republican or a libertarian. I don't care. If the country goes under or survives another 10,000 years. I don't really care. See that's what I'm saying. I don't have any real investment in your belief system. It's fine for you, good, not for me, good. We can debate it all. (for fun) but I don't care about it because it's not what my life has become on my personal path.

Is that a clearer picture of my views on this?




What I'm hearing is, "I don't care about the other homo sapiens."

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Work [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4939827 - 11/15/05 11:14 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
Uh huh. I see... And I'm curious, if you'd care to cut to the heart of this particular matter, could you tell me what you and Henry George propose us real estate owners/speculators/rent collectors do?



His proposal is not for what real estate owners et al should do, but rather for the policy implications for government. He proposed a full land value tax on the unimproved value of land as the sole source of revenue for government, eliminating all other forms of taxation. Unlike many other taxes, the land value tax would not change the price of the commodity it taxes(in this case, land), but would instead simply render the socially created wealth of land rents to society, while allowing individuals to keep the wealth they have individually earned. So that wealth which is created by society goes to society, while that which is created by the individual goes to the individual.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Work [Re: Silversoul]
    #4939880 - 11/15/05 11:26 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Oh. Phew. You almost had me worried for a bit - I thought the proposal would be something Nazish, i.e., "No more land for you!".

That's actually a pretty good idea though, I like it. So it's not quite so much the people that are investing in real estate for financial success and security, but rather the governmental system which employs their privilege to do such.. I see. Am I right in assuming that the LVT would, of course, be uniform for all land? If so, what would the expected LVT be?




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Work [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4939912 - 11/15/05 11:34 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Henry George proposed a LVT somewhere close to, but not quite at 100%. This may sound shocking at first, but as I mentioned, LVT does not affect the price of land, but rather simply shifts the cost from the selling price to taxes. In other words, and increase in LVT would be met with a corresponding decrease in selling price. So you would basically pay in taxes what you would otherwise pay on your mortgage. This would obviously be a bit of a hardship for current property owners, which is why it would have to be implemented gradually, and perhaps some monetary compensation given to them. But all new real estate buyers after the implementation of the tax would pay no more for a house than they currently would. And yes, the rate of taxation would be uniform.


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