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OfflineDjYoshi
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Registered: 07/28/04
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Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
My Video Card Guide
    #4915663 - 11/09/05 10:10 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Alright, I've seen a lot of MISINFORMATION on these boards, and I'd like to clear it all up.  A lot of people looking to upgrade AS YOU SHOULD BE, because right now is a great time to upgrade (great price/performance ratio).  Video cards right now are INSANELY well-priced.  I hope I'm going to clear up a lot of misconstrued ideas with this post, and if you have any questions that this doesn't answer, feel free to email me at djyoshi@gmail.com :smile:

First--nVidia is no better than ATi, and vice versa.  They both have a few things going for them right now, and here we go...

nVidia--Drivers, SLi, and OpenGL
nVidia, long the superior in OpenGL performance, has recently come upon some technologies that they're taking advantage of.  SLi, a technology dredged up from the past of one of the companies they bought (3dfx) allows two cards to run in synchronous to increase performance.  There are some problems with it, as the cards MUST be the same or very similar, same clock, overclocking is tricky, they just now got dual monitors working, and all of that.  It's a very powerful technology, however, and has pushed them ahead for a while (that is until ATi came out with crossfire, but that's not for this section).  They also rule OpenGL in performance.  What is that you may ask?  Every game must run on a video API (Application Programming Interface).  There are two main APIs in this day and age--DirectX which is made and maintained by microsoft, and proprietary to windows/the Xbox.  This is actually a packaged deal--it does video, audio, and interfacing.  OpenGL, however, is just a video interface, ie what you see on the screen.  It, however, is open source and is available on ALL platforms (well, the important ones that is; those being Mac, Linux and Windows.)--and OpenGL has long been the one favored by very few, very skilled programmers (see: id, creators of Doom, Quake, etc).  DirectX is by far the industry standard nowadays, and only id remains a staunch supporter of OpenGL and its portability.  I could go a lot further into this, but suffice to say, OpenGL performs MUCH better than DirectX on any given nVidia card, though that's not to say that DirectX doesn't perform well, but...bah, you get the picture :smile:

Drivers--the things that allow your video card to work.  They're also very handy if they have very useful tools that come with it--and many of these are included in the video card setup (right click your desktop, go to properties, go to settings tab, advanced, and voila).  nVidia has always had MANY more settings in these than ATi.  There are plugins, of course, to add the functionality, but these may or may not run if they are not distributed by the manufacturer...always be careful in what you install.  Also, nVidia has much better (and actually working) Linux drivers for all of their cards--including the latest 6800 and 7800 series.

Now, to ATi's advantages....DirectX, driver performance increases, crossfire, and Half-Life 2.

ATi, like nVidia, has always favored one API over the other.  Their DirectX performance blows past anything nVidia has to offer...however, their OpenGL performance is seen as abysmal (by industry standards).  Their drivers also have an advantage of their own--you're constantly seeing many performance increases for your card, no matter what the card.  Some may see this as a good thing, others as a bad--for instance, why are they constantly making performance increases?  Shouldn't they have gotten it right the first time?  I personally see it as a service they're giving us--a service of always giving us prompt and useful updates.  You, however, may not.

Crossfire--ATi's response to SLi.  Now as you noticed, SLi is a powerful tool for your hardcore gamer, and for a while stood alone in the playing field.  ATi, the competition, had to think fast to come up with a way to get back at nVidia, and get back they did.  They came up with a technology that allows you to interface two of any cards--AGP or PCI-Express (for quick reference, AGP is only on nForce3, nForce2 and even nForce [though that's really old] chipsets, and is being phased out in favor of PCI-Express, a new industry standard that I could get really technical about, but won't), 9700 or X700, etc etc.  This is really cool, because it allows for AGP to have a bit more life and allows every user to enjoy the rewards.  There comes a catch though--some cards may need a master card for this technology (and I'm not sure which either!) so you can't just slop two cards together willy nilly and expect it to work (though it may).  All in all, I think they're both more trouble than they're worth right now, but that's just me.

Half-Life 2: The short of it is that ATi gets better performance in Half-Life 2 because ATi and Valve is like THIS SON!  The long is that Valve put the instructions in 24-bit floating point (an ATi-only standard) instead of 16 or 32 (nVidia's standards).  Supreme suckage for nVidia owners, though don't let that get you down--you'll probably get decent performance, just not with AA and AF.

REAL FAST: Anti-Aliasing, Anistropic Filtering, and (NEW!) Transparency Anti-Aliasing.

Anti-Aliasing: Hate jaggies?  This cures that ailment.  But sometimes at an extreme cost to performance.  I'm not sure the difference as far as 2xQAA, 2xFMSAA blah blah etc, but just realize that Anti-Aliasing does that.  Temporal AA on 9*00 cards aparrently allows for free 2x or 4xaa (free as in no performance hit) but I've never fiddled with this, so I'd suggest looking deeper into the subject.

Anistropic Filtering: Renders textures as they should be without any compression or blurriness.  Ever notice that ring that seems to follow your character incessantly, and outside that ring the textures get blurrier?  That ring is where Anistropic Filtering ends--as you go up and up, the ring gets bigger.  Sometimes at no performance cost, sometimes at very high performance costs, you have to always be leery of what game you're playing, and what the settings are with both of these settings.

Transparency AA: New to the playing field, this anti-aliases textures such as fences, grates, leaves--anything that's a texture, not a polygon, and has aliased edges.  Works on 7800 series, and ATi has a driver hack to make it work on all cards, be it 9*00, X*00, or X1*00.

The lineups--GeForce3-7, 8000-x1800

GeForce 3s--Great cards for their time, but fairly dated now.  Probably could run the latest games...but not at any decent settings.  Good for internet boxes, not for gaming boxes.
DirectX7 (OpenGL 1.1)

Geforce 4s--GREAT cards that came for a great price, and they still somewhat hold their own, though you won't see all the prettiness and definitely won't be enjoying Anti-Aliasing or Anistropic Filtering with the latest and greatest (FEAR, Quake 4, etc)

Geforce 5200--LOWEST end GF FX card, not even worth owning, much less buying.
Geforce 5500--Next step up, not much better (pretty much an overclocked 5200)
Geforce 5600--Next step up, decent, hard to find anymore to be honest
Geforce 5700--Next step up, okay, not great.
Geforce 5800--Old heater of a card, took up two slots...wasn't that great, didn't last long, very hard to find (for a good reason).
Geforce 5900--Actually a decent card.  Not bad at all, especially not overclocked.  But it still pales in comparison to the ATi response.

Geforce 6200--the budget card of the 6000 series, this card is alright, mainly meant for a budget PCI-E card for nVidia.
Geforce 6600--Good card, not great, about comparable to a 9800
Geforce 6600GT--Good card, comparable to a 9800 Pro
Geforce 6800/GT/Ultra--This is where it gets tricky...you start talking about pixel pipelines, vertex shaders, etc, and it gets confusing.  Basically, the 6800 Ultra and the 6800GT are the same card--at different clockspeeds.  The 6800 has a few pipelines, or instruction paths where...stuff...happens taken out, and is clocked lower.

Note: ANY 6000 series card can be put into SLi with its twin, doubling the performance.  To give you some perspective, two 6600GTs are about equal to a 6800Ultra, and two 6800GT/Ultras are about equal to a 7800GT/Ultra.

Geforce 7800GT--VERY good card, top of the line, PCI-Express ONLY!  Can be put into SLi
Geforce 7800 Ultra--Excellent card, barely a step above the 7800GT, and some games don't even see a performance different at this point.

Alright, that does it for the nvidia side...let's look at ATi's offerings, shall we?

8000--Dull card, rather lame, not that great...I'd say only as a backup anymore.
8500--Same as before.  Both of these were the response to the Geforce3 and Geforce4s.

9000--don't even bother
9200--same as before
9500--Okay...alright card, but very dated.  If you're lucky you'll get one of the first ones that shared the core with the 9700 that you can mod...maybe.
9500 pro--marginally better
9550--worse than the 9500, I've heard nothing but bad.
9600--Alright card, will run most anything today at decent settings, is very robust, etc.
9600 pro--A rather large improvement for a rather small sum of money.
9600XT--pronounced THE budget card of the 9*00 series, if you're considering going anything less than a 9800 Pro, I suggest THIS card.
9700--Good card, showing its age, not that great.
9700 pro--Much better, but still showing its age.
9800--Great card, truly a hallmark in its time.  Has weathered well, still does games with marginal AA and AF decently well.
9800 Pro--Even better, gets better performance than its lower-marked brother.
9800 XT--FAR too expensive, especially when you can look at the 6800s which are comparable in price, and MUCH better in performance.

X300--Basically, you aren't getting this card unless you got a Dell...it's alright, budget card of the X*00 series, not too bad, not too great.
X600--Not worth the money (get a 6600GT)
X700--Still no (6600GT)
X700 Pro--Nadda
X800/Pro/XT--Same as with the 6800 series with one minor difference--the the X800==the 6800, the XT==the 6800 Ultra, but the X800 Pro is a horrible card, not worth buying.  If you have the chance to get it, I suggest getting an X800 XL or a 6800GT instead.
X800XL--The response to the 6800GT--a great budget (well...sorta) card, it'll give tons of performance, great life, and a little overclocking for not too much dollar.

*note: Where the 6000 series has Shader Model 3.0, the X000 series does NOT.  This is a huge performance difference, though as of yet not much else.

X1300--Not yet out, due to be the next budget card.  Coming to a Dell near you...
X1600--Not yet out, supposed to be alright though.
X1800XL--The only one of the X1800 series out, I've heard nothing but mixed reviews.  Do your research on this one--it just came out.

*note: The X1800 series strives for Shader Model 3.0, but is supposedly missing one crucial ingredient for having a full credit as far as that goes.  Be wary of this.

A little about SLi and Crossfire setups--Special motherboards:

You're looking for an SLi motherboard, and a Crossfire motherboard, but don't know what to look for?  Let's see what you're going to be wanting...

SLi--two PCI-Express x16 slots, preferrably on a board that says "SLi" somewhere in its title, and probably will want nForce4 chipsets.
Also, you'll want to look into getting the cards prepackaged, probably, or ordering two of the same exact card from the same exact place, and also look into the SLi chip you need.

Crossfire--ATi's making a special chipset for this...the bad part?  ATi's never entered the chipset market.  The worse part?  nVidia makes the best chipsets ON THE MARKET.  The worst part?  I've yet to see an ATi Crossfire chipset motherboard released.
Crossfire also may/may not require a master card.  Look into it as needed.

I hope I gave everyone a chance to gain information about the market that it's taken me a while to compile, and that everyone spends their money more wisely in the future.  A bit more advice?  DO NOT SHOP AT STORES AROUND YOU unless you KNOW they've got a great deal.

Sites to visit/sources:
www.newegg.com
www.hardocp.com
www.arstechnica.com
www.anandtech.com

PS: I don't trust Tomshardware.com, and I find other shopping sites than newegg to be too expensive for american customers.  If you're looking for canadian stores, the only one I really know of is Tigerdirect.ca, so look there.

Happy fragging :smile:

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Invisibledaussaulit
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Re: My Video Card Guide [Re: DjYoshi]
    #4916033 - 11/09/05 11:47 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

whats wrong with tom's?

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OfflineDjYoshi
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Re: My Video Card Guide [Re: daussaulit]
    #4918799 - 11/10/05 04:44 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I'm just not a fan...they fudged some results a while back saying that the FX series outperformed the 9*00 series, and ever since then I just haven't touched it. I think they also did some erronneous judging on the AMD Athlon XP vs Intel P4 debates.

To be honest, though, HardOCP had a HUGE scandal a while back, but they cleared it up and have been honest since.

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Offlinedrtyfrnk
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Re: My Video Card Guide [Re: DjYoshi]
    #4919000 - 11/10/05 05:29 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

So between the 6800GT and the X800XL, which do you think would be the best card?


--------------------
It's Krang, Bitch!  :krang:

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InvisibleGijith
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Registered: 12/04/03
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Re: My Video Card Guide [Re: DjYoshi]
    #4919085 - 11/10/05 05:44 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Thank you for this post. As it happens, I was browsing cards in a different window right as I saw it.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: My Video Card Guide [Re: DjYoshi]
    #4919118 - 11/10/05 05:52 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

best candian sites are ncix.com and canadacomputers.com, very cheap.


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks

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OfflineDjYoshi
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Re: My Video Card Guide [Re: barfightlard]
    #4919748 - 11/10/05 08:28 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Between the X800XL and 6800GT, I'd say X800XL. Transparent AA is a beautiful thing that's aparrent ont he X800XL, but not on the 6800GT.

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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: My Video Card Guide [Re: DjYoshi]
    #4919759 - 11/10/05 08:32 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Where do I get this "hack" to enable transpernt AA for my 9800 pro?


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks

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OfflineDjYoshi
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Re: My Video Card Guide [Re: barfightlard]
    #4919816 - 11/10/05 08:50 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: My Video Card Guide [Re: DjYoshi]
    #4921119 - 11/11/05 05:38 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

thank you

thats puuurdy!

In the registery I have 3 different sets of long numbers each with extentions, but none of them have they key I need to change the value too....Maybe because I use Omega's 5.10s?


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks

Edited by bellylard (11/11/05 05:45 AM)

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OfflineDjYoshi
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Re: My Video Card Guide [Re: barfightlard]
    #4930843 - 11/13/05 11:18 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, you'll want to use Catalyst drivers for sure.

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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: My Video Card Guide [Re: DjYoshi]
    #4931494 - 11/14/05 07:17 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Using Cat 5.11's and still no ASTT_NA???

I just did a search and found it, not sure where though.  Hope I didn't mess anything up :tongue:


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks

Edited by bellylard (11/14/05 07:19 AM)

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OfflinekronnyQ
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Re: My Video Card Guide [Re: DjYoshi]
    #4933228 - 11/14/05 04:33 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Supreme guide Djyoshi....glad I read it because i was considering gettin an X800 Pro, good thing I didn't. Definitely will pick up the XL.

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OfflineMicrocosmatrix
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Re: My Video Card Guide [Re: daussaulit]
    #4935027 - 11/14/05 10:39 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

daussaulit said:
whats wrong with tom's?




:crying:


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:orly:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: My Video Card Guide [Re: Microcosmatrix]
    #4937807 - 11/15/05 04:01 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

ATI support for Linux users is totally sucky. Nvidia has great support for their Linux drivers. So if you use Linux stay back from ATI.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleJared
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Re: My Video Card Guide [Re: DjYoshi]
    #4945178 - 11/17/05 02:52 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Good writeup. I've a few things to add:

1. the X1xxx series now have superior OGL perf compared with nvidia's current offerings, using a driver patch.. which will soon become part of the offical catalyst drivers.

2. SLI doesn't just double performance.. theres a whole lot of different situations, and rarely is near double performance seen. What chokes up a single 6xxx card will choke up two of them; they don't share Vram.

3. ATI's Crossfire is a horrible horrible thing. I use a 21" monitor, and play my games in 1600x1200 resolution. The thought of being forced into using 60hz refresh rate burns my soul. ;(

4. DFI has had a crossfire (rxpress200) motherboard out for a month now.. its a solid performer, overclocker, and looks to be an all around a good platform.. but its not any better than an nf4, definatly not cheaper, and is less proven.

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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: My Video Card Guide [Re: DjYoshi]
    #4945329 - 11/17/05 05:38 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DjYoshi said:
Yeah, you'll want to use Catalyst drivers for sure.




Newer Omega drivers come with that hack already enabled.


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks

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Offlinedrtyfrnk
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Re: My Video Card Guide [Re: barfightlard]
    #4946429 - 11/17/05 12:50 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, I always use the omega drivers, they are awesome!


--------------------
It's Krang, Bitch!  :krang:

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OfflineDjYoshi
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Re: My Video Card Guide [Re: drtyfrnk]
    #4993703 - 11/29/05 11:11 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quick bump.

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Offlinedrtyfrnk
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Re: My Video Card Guide [Re: DjYoshi]
    #4994234 - 11/29/05 01:24 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Picked up an AiW X800XL and god damn! I love it!


--------------------
It's Krang, Bitch!  :krang:

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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: My Video Card Guide [Re: drtyfrnk]
    #4995154 - 11/29/05 05:30 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

decent card :laugh:  I'm going to stick with my 9800 pro untill i can afford to go to PCI-e.  It can play BF2 on medium, couple high, with 4xAA very nicely.


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks

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Invisiblesupercollider
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Re: My Video Card Guide [Re: DjYoshi]
    #4995223 - 11/29/05 05:44 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Linux users should not even consider an ATI card--no ATI card performs more than 2/3 as well as its comparably-priced nvidia counterpart in linux. This is partly due to their natural deficiency at openGL, and partly their less dedicated support for linux.


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Supercollider? I just met her!

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OfflineDjYoshi
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Re: My Video Card Guide [Re: supercollider]
    #4996508 - 11/29/05 09:55 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Er...ATi cards perform just fine. It's just getting them to work that's the hard part :p

I wouldn't suggest anything current (read: released in the last 4 years) from ATi's line to a Linux enthusiast. Stick with nVidia. Then again, if you use linux, you should be savvy enough to know this :p

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InvisiblePenguarky Tunguin
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Re: My Video Card Guide [Re: DjYoshi]
    #5014882 - 12/04/05 06:08 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Dumb question, but I just received a ATI Radeon X700 for free. Its PCI-Express. Can I use this card in my Pentium 4 motherboard that is not PCI-Express? I've heard conflicting opinions and have not installed it for obvious reasons.


Thanks for any input.



McKennaDMT


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Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.

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OfflineTheCow
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Re: My Video Card Guide [Re: Penguarky Tunguin]
    #5015203 - 12/04/05 07:28 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

McKennaDMT said:
Dumb question, but I just received a ATI Radeon X700 for free. Its PCI-Express. Can I use this card in my Pentium 4 motherboard that is not PCI-Express? I've heard conflicting opinions and have not installed it for obvious reasons.


Thanks for any input.



McKennaDMT



No you cant.

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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: My Video Card Guide [Re: Penguarky Tunguin]
    #5017065 - 12/05/05 09:54 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

PCI, PCI-E, and AGP are all different slots and arn't compatable with other hardware than what is ment for them.


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks

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