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OfflinePhred
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Re: Acknowledging and accepting the validity of our sense perception [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4910011 - 11/08/05 04:45 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Something which we cannot experience is hardly fact.




Incorrect, if by "experience" you mean apprehend with our unaided senses. We cannot "experience" the various machinations of microbes in a drop of pond water yet their existence is nonetheless a fact. Similarly, no human has "experienced" the polar ice caps of Mars, yet their existence is also a fact.





Phred


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Acknowledging and accepting the validity of our sense perception [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4910017 - 11/08/05 04:46 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

great post. i wont pretend i understand everything you said perfectly. dont take this as a contradiction or a critique, just my 2 cents added...

if i understand correctly, part of your argument hinges on sciences objective study of the fundamental building blocks of nature, and how since our minds and nervous systems are composed of those physical building blocks, everything must exist independently of our minds...

the interesting thing about that is, physics has progressed beyond the atom... the atom is no longer the smallest particle... as i understand it, the most fundamental particle (aka puffs of meta energy) are now known as quarks and moreover, when studying these particles, scientists discoverd the remarkable fact that quarks, the fundamental essence of reality have no qualities independent of observation

that is, the very act of observing these particles profoundly changed their behaviour...

im not a quantum physicist, but what i have read on this subject has been mind blowing, you should check it out, assuming you havent already

anyways as i understand it, the cutting edge of physics is now discovering that the mind matter seperation is kind of illusory... matter is mind, mind is matter, the act of observing fundamentlaly alters the nature of what is observed...

anyways... maybe thats relevant maybe not. ill read your first post again and probably get something totally different out of it.

:cheers:

to thinking


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Everything I post is fiction.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Acknowledging and accepting the validity of our sense perception [Re: Phred]
    #4910024 - 11/08/05 04:46 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

By experience I mean sense-data.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Acknowledging and accepting the validity of our sense perception [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4910032 - 11/08/05 04:47 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

You cannot remove the observer from the equation.




What do you mean by that? Is it your contention that if all life in the universe were to be extinguished tomorrow, the stars and planets and nebulae would vanish? If so, on what do you base this belief?



Phred


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Acknowledging and accepting the validity of our sense perception [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4910046 - 11/08/05 04:49 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"Without an external stimulus" in other words, it is a false perception.

How does this mean that it [hallucinations] doesn't have any form of existence, whatsoever?

[Overlooking the fact that the quoted statement actually means: subjective or arbitrary.]


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Acknowledging and accepting the validity of our sense perception [Re: Phred]
    #4910099 - 11/08/05 04:59 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Incorrect, if by "experience" you mean apprehend with our unaided senses.




I didn't say anything about unaided experience. I mean experience, plan and simple. Any sensory input. Aided experience is just as valid as any other experience.
Experience is something entirely different from the "true nature of reality", it being something we can only make noises about.

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

You cannot remove the observer from the equation.




What do you mean by that? Is it your contention that if all life in the universe were to be extinguished tomorrow, the stars and planets and nebulae would vanish? If so, on what do you base this belief?




The observer doesn't equal the equation. I'm not trying to argue solispism.
What I'm trying to say is, everything is relative to the instrument/model you use to view it. Light appears as a wave using machine-A. Light appears as a particle using machine-B. The same is true for the human nervous system.

And back to the original post,
To assume that my nervous system is completely infallible seems ridiculus.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Acknowledging and accepting the validity of our sense perception [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4910171 - 11/08/05 05:14 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Something which we cannot experience is hardly fact.




So, to paraphrase you in light of your clarification, something we cannot sense is hardly fact

It is only very recently in human history we could sense, (with the aid of microscopes) microbes. Were microbes not factual before the invention of the microscope?

Same with almost all celestial objects. Were globular clusters and the moons of Saturn not factual before the invention of the telescope? Or did they spring into existence the same day the first observer turned a telescope on them?





Phred


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Acknowledging and accepting the validity of our sense perception [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4910172 - 11/08/05 05:14 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Moonshoe, in layman's terms, the use of quantum physics to support Primacy of Consciousness [if this is what you're getting at] uses a poor understanding of what quantum physics is really saying about the universe. Most of the mistaken interpretation seems to come from the use of observation or observables. People read that and think, "Oh, that means a person, i.e. consciousness, is looking at that particle." That isn't how it works. Without going into what consciousness really is, "observation" can happen when, say, a photon interacts with an electron. So it's "physical stuff" doing the "observing." This is why we can't 'will' for $100 bills to grow off trees, and that sort of thing.

In reality, the fact remains: The Law of Identity remains lawful and the Law of Causality remains lawful. A will always be A. No matter how hard a man "wills" for a volcano in front of him to stop spewing hot, molten lava all over his unstrategically located house, it ain't gonna happen. No matter how hard we "wish" for a tree to grow $100 bills, it ain't gonna happen. No matter what, our consciousness will not alter the metaphysically given facts of reality. Hence, the Primacy of Existence holds true - regardless of what some cult-biased, psuedo-scientific, mock-spiritual people [or movies like "What the BLEEP do we know?] say to the contrary. Even the prominent physicist David Bohm himself maintains a Primacy of Existence standpoint.

Hope that clears some things up.



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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Acknowledging and accepting the validity of our sense perception [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4910266 - 11/08/05 05:36 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

cool...

i dont have a solid oppinion on this yet... its funny because this is exactly what weve been debating in class...

it is strange though...

when we think of an object, any given object, lets say for the purposes at hand: tree.

we believe this object exists, because it has qualities that we can percieve in a variety of ways.

but how can we say any of those qualities exist independently of us?

colour is meaningless and non existant without eyes to see it... texture is meaningless and non existant without nerves to feel it, the word tree is meaningless without a brain that defines it... in short none of the qualities have any meaning or existance without the observer, or so it would seem.

but isnt it these qualities that lead us to believe the tree exists in the first place?

im not actually taking this oppinion its just a line of thinking...

i hold no solid oppinions of beliefs on anything anymore... just entertain lines of questioning...

also worth considering: you say the human mind can never change physical reality by means of belief or will or thought...

but a human being is itself a physical entity, the realist would say entirely composed of solid matter particles...

what about the placebo effect? how can humans merely by belief in a sugar pill , cure their own warts, recover from illness, create actual physical alterations on their bodies?

im not arguing for the primacy of mind here, or that mind is all that exists... more like mind and matter are one...


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Acknowledging and accepting the validity of our sense perception [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4910311 - 11/08/05 05:49 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

colour is meaningless and non existant without eyes to see it...




Meaningless to whom? Take your example of the tree. The tree's leaves appear green to human eyes for a reason -- they absorb certain wavelengths of light and reflect others. As it turns out, the wavelengths correspond to those necessary for photosynthesis. In the absence of human eyes, the leaves still reflect certain wavelenghts of light and absorb others.

Quote:

texture is meaningless and non existant without nerves to feel it...




Not meaningless to the tree. Some trees have spikey leaves in order to conserve moisture and repel animals who would otherwise consume them, for example.

Quote:

the word tree is meaningless without a brain that defines it...




The fact that there is no brain around to name a tree a tree doesn't alter the fact that the tree exists.

Quote:

in short none of the qualities have any meaning or existance without the observer, or so it would seem.




They have both meaning and existence. See above.




Phred


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Acknowledging and accepting the validity of our sense perception [Re: Phred]
    #4910462 - 11/08/05 06:25 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

yeah i see what your saying... im not so much trying to say that the tree doesnt exist, more that everything we experience about the tree doesnt exist... like the tree in reality might bear no resemblance to the tree-as percieved, you know? hard to articulate quite what im saying, and i know classical philosophy has already discussed this ad nauseum but hey, beerweed entertainment

:shrug:


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Acknowledging and accepting the validity of our sense perception [Re: Phred]
    #4916861 - 11/10/05 07:57 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Were microbes not factual before the invention of the microscope?

Microbes aren't factual whether before or after the invention of the microscope (philosophically speaking). Yet, for practical purposes they are considered as such.

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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Acknowledging and accepting the validity of our sense perception [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4916891 - 11/10/05 08:06 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

It sounds to me like you're an advocate of the "Primacy of Consciousness" school of thought. Is this so? If not, then I'm not sure what point you may be leading to. Please clarify.

haven't forgotten. will resume when i can

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Acknowledging and accepting the validity of our sense perception [Re: Phred]
    #4918552 - 11/10/05 03:27 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Were microbes not factual before the invention of the microscope?




No. It would not be factual to state that microbes exist prior to any evidence of them existing.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Acknowledging and accepting the validity of our sense perception [Re: Phred]
    #4918738 - 11/10/05 04:20 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Hah, he did not see them comming ! :lol:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Acknowledging and accepting the validity of our sense perception [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4918771 - 11/10/05 04:32 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

sense reception is interesting and rich
sense perception is the post filtered bit -
from the cornucopia of sense data, objects are distilled.
matches are made from memory's vault.
this can't be avoided or denied,
but sensation should not be sacrificed for the precedence of perception or learning dies, and a depression of what is known reigns.
perception is the rule of what has already been learned in the past.
immersing in sensation is the opportunity to learn something new.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Acknowledging and accepting the validity of our sense perception [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4918816 - 11/10/05 04:49 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

heh

this is going to piss some people off

but whatever...

personally, i  operate in the belief system that reality is essentially a dream. not only that, but my reality is MY dream... i dont base this on any semantic or axioms, premises, whatever.

i also dont deny that reality is "real" or the things in it are "real"... i just think that reality is of the nature of thought, all reality is perception...

anyways, the reason i maintain this belief is that

A. it is supremely empowering
B. it gives me a huge degree of control and power over my circumstances, emotions, feelings, every aspect of my life

basically, i find it to be by far the most pragmatic philosophy. this is your dream, therefore you have no excuse for not making it hte way you want it.

You no longer suffer from delusions of powerlessness, because nothing is beyond your power. if you concieve it you can realize it.

I also believe this because my own experiments confirm it... the same methods i use to control my lucid dreams have effect in waking life, although in different ways...

im not saying that waking life IS a dream... just that that is the closest metaphor for its nature that i can think of.

also, for me the corelation between thought/feeling and physical external reality is obvious. when i take the time to raise my own energy, have my head in a place of light and love... external reality synchs up. external events that rationality would say are completely beyond my control, match up perfectly to my internal state, weather im high or low this is true.

when my energy is low, external events go badly, when high, they go well.

anyways, look at it this way if you want

truth cannot be known absolutely. i wont verify that because i think alot of people already believe it... truth is relative and never known for sure... we all sort of "choose" a truth or paradigm to base our lives on

so seeing as imho we can never know absolute truth,we have the liberty of "choosing" what we believe... like it or not we all do this anyways, but most dont do it conciously.

Im lucky in that the belief i hold as a result of my personality and experience is also the one i would choose because it is the most empowering and pragmatic... plus i believe what we believe becomes true, for us

anyways... i realize this is out of line with most of the thread, but those are my thoughts

:psychsplit:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Acknowledging and accepting the validity of our sense perception [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4918844 - 11/10/05 04:55 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

:mrt:

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Acknowledging and accepting the validity of our sense perception [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4918878 - 11/10/05 05:00 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

it would have been way funnier if you used :borfase:


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Acknowledging and accepting the validity of our sense perception [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4918915 - 11/10/05 05:11 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, FANTASTIC post skorpivo! Couldn't have said better myself!

Experiance is definitely real! I have trouble with the idea of the "external" because what do we know that is not of our own experiance? Whether it is second-hand experiance (word of mouth or through a micro/telescope) experiance is real. Blue is real because we experiance it. Lightwaves of the frequency 450nm is also real because we experiance it, albiet through technology.

The 450nm lightwaves are no more "idependent" of our experiance than blue is.

A datura hallucination is real in the mind of the hallucinator and has real effects on how he behaves and interacts with consensual reality.

Too often is the mistake made that the only things that are real are consensually experianced.

Quantum mechanics are fucking mindblowing! It has been proven SCIENTIFICALLY that there is no objective existance without observation! Observation (a euphamism for consciousness) directly effects what we know as physical matter and is an UNDENIABLE part of what we call existance. We cannot logically conceive of existance without consciousness thrown into the equation.

the ancients knew this long ago when they asked "When a tree falls in a forest, and no one is around to here it, does it make a sound?"

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