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GabbaDj
BTH
Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,681
Loc: By The Lake
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****** NO ON ALL 4 ******* Didnt pass after all... Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
#4909017 - 11/08/05 12:28 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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I Did...
Just this morning I drove 45 minutes so that I could shove my NO votes down the throat of Arnold Shwartzkoffnigger.
It feels good to be part of the solution..
-------------------- GabbaDj FAMM.ORG
Edited by GabbaDj (11/09/05 03:10 PM)
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afoaf
CEO DBK?
Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: GabbaDj]
#4909039 - 11/08/05 12:35 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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good work.
though, there were a couple that should have been yes'd.
the teacher tenure one...possibly the redistricting one, but the rest were jokes.
I'm driving out tonite to vote.
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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GabbaDj
BTH
Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,681
Loc: By The Lake
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: afoaf]
#4909094 - 11/08/05 12:54 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Teacher Tenure one was just a front for the real purpouse of the bill..
It gave principals the right to fire teatchers for LOTS of reasons.. Tenure would have been suspended for even those teachers serving 20 years in the schools..
Its only purpouse is to allow teachers to be axed under budget cuts at the will of the governor and it has little to do with getting good people into the classroom.
-------------------- GabbaDj FAMM.ORG
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GabbaDj
BTH
Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,681
Loc: By The Lake
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: GabbaDj]
#4909115 - 11/08/05 12:58 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Cutting employee hours, cutting labor, reduceing staff, minimumizing employee benefits and stopping their elected unions from fighting back..
Thats what this whole election is all about..
If thats not big business pulling the strings I dont know what else it could be..
How could anyone believe that hurting Californias working class could be a good thing for California at all? If these things pass then big business will be free to cut wages, redefine overtime (as was tried the last election), destroy retirement benefits and effectively shut out all business responsibility to provide medical insurance for its workers....
Its all a crock of shit.
-------------------- GabbaDj FAMM.ORG
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afoaf
CEO DBK?
Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: GabbaDj]
#4909131 - 11/08/05 01:03 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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the california school system is a mess.
teachers SHOULD be able to be fired from their jobs for any number of reasons...just like the rest of us workers.
the very problem is that you can't get the shitty teachers out now....they just shuttle them between schools.
I don't know why union workers think that they deserve job protections that the rest of us don't enjoy.
what exactly is it about you and your position that gives you the right to enjoy unatural job protection and to be paid higher wages than the market would otherwise have to bear?
balancing the budget requires that you trim the fat.
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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GabbaDj
BTH
Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,681
Loc: By The Lake
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: afoaf]
#4909164 - 11/08/05 01:09 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
balancing the budget requires that you trim the fat.
Your dumb if you cant see that this will hurt many more great teatchers than it will weed out bad ones. What we need are bills that provide guaranteed funding for the schools, like the one we voted in last election.. This one reverses that and takes money away from the schools which will force them to cut staff.
Theyve already cut sports, music, art, drama even books and supplys out of the classrooms.. Maybe we should just let the kids sit on the floor in empty rooms watching barney cartoons all day...
-------------------- GabbaDj FAMM.ORG
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afoaf
CEO DBK?
Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: GabbaDj]
#4909274 - 11/08/05 01:35 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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administrators don't cut good teachers when they chronically complain about the lack of qualified workers.
administrators cut the bad ones.
it's in their best interests.
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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kilgore_trout
Stranger
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: afoaf]
#4909296 - 11/08/05 01:38 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
afoaf said: I don't know why union workers think that they deserve job protections that the rest of us don't enjoy.
union protection act i think its called right? its about making it harder for them to raise money for political campaigns to further disable them against businesses by asking for formal consent from all persons before their they can use their dues for a contribution. People could not vote in their interests as workers and instead decide they need to vote for who hates terrorists the most, for one thing. Its something like that, right? and unions think everyone should have protections, you need to get a union at your workplace, not tell them they dont deserve the protections that you dont have bc youre not organized.
this isnt about job protections at union workplaces. way to show you know what youre talking about. did you vote on that issue?
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nonick
Stranger
Registered: 09/14/05
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Last seen: 17 years, 1 month
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i see how it is...
my "did you vote" thread isn't good enough, so you had to make your own.
i see how appreciated i am around here
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wilshire
free radical
Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: GabbaDj]
#4909433 - 11/08/05 02:13 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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the republican running for district attorney in my county is a christian loon. he attended bob jones university, if you have an idea what that means. his career in the county so far has been spent working with police drug task forces and handling drug prosecutions almost exclusively as deputy DA. he's gone on record saying that drugs are his number one priority and that his christian faith will guide his decisions as DA if elected. he'll probably get elected too. he's endorsed by all the police organizations around here.
as if this county wasn't already bad enough...
(of course i'm going to get to the polls)
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: wilshire]
#4909477 - 11/08/05 02:32 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Can you still vote after your conviction?
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wilshire
free radical
Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
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yeah, only because i was already registered. if i wasn't, i'd have to wait 5 years or something. there are some states that don't let felons EVER vote, and then there are some that let them vote from prison if they're still in. mine's somewhere in the middle i guess.
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GabbaDj
BTH
Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,681
Loc: By The Lake
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: wilshire]
#4911896 - 11/08/05 11:03 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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I cant fucking believe it...
Prop results as of 9:45
73 YES. Ummm OK 74 NO... Score 1 75 YES... WHAT THE FUCK? ALL of socal districts passed this one. 76,77,78,79,80 all failed...
Its like people just dont know what the unions have done for everyone..
Myself Im not pro union but at the same time they are needed much more for their contribution to non union workers.. They are the single most important loby group for minimum wage increases and workers compensation security... FOR EVERYONE. Not just union members..
-------------------- GabbaDj FAMM.ORG
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afoaf
CEO DBK?
Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: GabbaDj]
#4911993 - 11/08/05 11:39 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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and minimum wage laws and mandatory employee benefits hurt us all!
thank you very much, unions!
please read an economics book.
for those things among many others, I detest the present incarnation of unions.
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: afoaf]
#4912026 - 11/08/05 11:47 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
afoaf said: and minimum wage laws and mandatory employee benefits hurt us all!
thank you very much, unions!
please read an economics book.
for those things among many others, I detest the present incarnation of unions.
Couldn't have said it better my self.
If a company is not allowed to monopolize goods, why should a union be able to monopolize labor?
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kilgore_trout
Stranger
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: DieCommie]
#4912503 - 11/09/05 06:37 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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minimum wage and benefits dont hurt local businesses or economies, just corporations. im involved in a minimum wage campaign and i actually know what the fuck im talking about.
maybe you huys didnt read my post about how it has nothing to do with protecting unions?
-------------------- "I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."
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Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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Quote:
kilgore_trout said: minimum wage and benefits dont hurt local businesses or economies, just corporations. im involved in a minimum wage campaign and i actually know what the fuck im talking about.
maybe you huys didnt read my post about how it has nothing to do with protecting unions?
So wrong..
Wal-Mart Warms to the State by Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr.
H. Lee Scott, Jr., the CEO of Wal-Mart, surprised many by calling for an increase in the minimum wage. And what accolades were heaped on him! The company was even cast in a new role, from the exploiter of workers to the responsible advocate of pro-worker policies.
And how selfless, for who has to pay such higher wages but companies like Wal-Mart? And thus do we see a corporation set aside its business interests on behalf of the long-term interests of society.
The whole thing befuddled Wal-Mart haters as much as it disgusted its free-market defenders.
Ted Kennedy wouldn't go so far as to praise the company, but he did say that "If the CEO of Walmart can call for an increase in the minimum wage, the Republicans should follow suit on behalf of the millions of working men and women living in poverty."
Other lefties just wouldn't believe it. The spokesman for Wal-Mart Watch said that Scott's call for a higher wage floor was "disingenuous and laughable."
And yet, let us think this through. Might there be another reason Wal-Mart would advocate a higher minimum wage?
Before looking at the evidence, let's do some a priori theorizing based on the history of US corporate regulation. Historians such as Robert Higgs, Butler Shaffer, Dominick Armentano, and Gabriel Kolko have chronicled how the rise of business regulation, including intervention in market wages, was pushed by large companies for one main reason: to impose higher costs on smaller competitors.
This is how child labor legislation, mandated pensions, labor union impositions, health and safety regulations, and the entire panoply of business regimentation came about. It was pushed by big businesses that had already absorbed the costs of these practices into their profit margins so as to burden smaller businesses that did not have these practices. Regulation is thus a violent method of competition.
Think of it this way. Let's say you run a retail coffee shop that sells only "fair trade" coffee, which is expensive to acquire, but for which consumers are willing to pay a high price. All is going swimmingly until a competitor shows up and sells unfair coffee that tastes just as good for half the price.
Let's say consumers begin to change their minds about the merit of your "fair trade" coffee and your profits fall. You must make a change to survive. You can compete by offering a wider range of choice. Or you can lobby the local government in the name of "social responsibility" (oh, such high ideals!) to require that all coffee sold in your town be "fair trade."
Who does that benefit? Your company. Who does it hurt? Their company.
Moving from theory to reality, we find that this is precisely what Wal-Mart is up to. The hint comes from the news stories: "Wal-Mart maintains that it pays above the current $5.15 an hour minimum wage to its employees."
Now, most readers might just look at this as a case of leading by example. Would that everyone were as fair as the wonderful Wal-Mart! But a second look suggests another interpretation, namely that it wants to slam its smaller competition, which will be seriously harmed by having to pay more for labor.
The current minimum is $5.15. According to studies, Wal-Mart pays between $8.23 and $9.68 as its national average. That means that the minimum wage could be raised 50% and still not impose higher costs on the company.
Wal-Mart itself makes even more elaborate claims on Walmartfacts.com: "The national average for regular hourly Walmart wages is nearly twice the federal minimum wage, and higher in urban areas." If true, the national minimum could be raised by 100% and leave the company unaffected.
So who would it affect if not Wal-Mart? All of its main competitors. And the truth is that there are millions of businesses that compete with it every day. Many local stores have attempted to copy Wal-Mart's price-competitive model, but face lower costs and can actually thrive.
There are many ways to compete with Wal-Mart. Not all shoppers like sprawling stores. Others like better service with more experts on the floor. Others just hate crowds. But a main way to compete is to hire lower-priced labor. This could mean that your employees are from a "lower" rung on the social ladder, but they too need opportunities. The savings can be reflected in other amenities that Wal-Mart does not offer. There can be non-standardized products otherwise not available. The location might be better. Even prices for goods can be lower.
Even similar stores such as K-Mart can pay lower wages, and that can make the margin of difference. K-Mart pays over a much wider range, as low as $6.75 an hour. A major competitor is mainstream grocery stores, where workers do indeed start at minimum wage. Target too pays starting employees less than Wal-Mart, if the Target Union can be believed.
Now, if Wal-Mart can successfully lobby the government to abolish lower-wage firms, it has taken a huge step toward running out its competition. The effect of requiring other firms to pay wages just as high as theirs is the same as if the company lobbied to force other companies to purchase only in high quantities, to open large stores only, or to stay open 24 hours. By making others do what Wal-Mart does, the company manages to put the squeeze on anyone who would dare vie for its customer base.
Now here is the great irony. The left has long been in a total frenzy about how Wal-Mart saunters into small towns and outcompetes long-established local retailers. Wal-Mart's opponents have whipped themselves into a frenzy about the company's success, claiming that it always comes at a huge social cost.
Now, most of this rhetoric is overblown and ignorant. Wal-Mart would not have made any profits or grown as it has without having convinced the consuming public to purchase from the store. Consumers could put the company out of business tomorrow, just by failing to show up to buy.
The left's claims of unfair practices would be valid if Wal-Mart did indeed work to impose legal disabilities on its competitors ? in effect making it illegal to outcompete the company. And yet that is precisely what raising the minimum wage would do: impose a legal disability on those companies engaged in lower-wage competition with Wal-Mart. So the economically ignorant left advocates raising the minimum wage. Lew's collected speeches: $25
Thus has our CEO friend Mr. Scott discovered a viciously devious tactic. He sees a way to drive out the competition by doing precisely what Wal-Mart's biggest critics are advocating! And what will be the result? Wal-Mart's share of the market will go up, and its degree of cartelization over the mass consumer market will increase, not by market means but through government intervention. Then we can expect the left to once again fly into another hysteria about the size and growth of the company ? totally oblivious to how they worked to bring it about.
Free-market advocates who have long defended Wal-Mart can only be disgusted at this shift in the company's methods from competing on market grounds to calling for the state to crush its competition. Even more disgusting is how the company can count on the economic ignorance of its critics to help do it.
The minimum wage should not be raised but abolished. If free competition and a non-monopolized market are what you favor, you too should favor abolishing the minimum wage. In a purely free market, Wal-Mart would discover that there are indeed limits to growth, and that others are willing and able to learn from its successes.
-------------------- ?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.? -Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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kilgore_trout
Stranger
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Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
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oh, i just realized, "union protection" passed right? doublespeak bullshit.
-------------------- "I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."
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kilgore_trout
Stranger
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: Ancalagon]
#4912514 - 11/09/05 06:44 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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that post is so far from reality its scary.
-------------------- "I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."
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kilgore_trout
Stranger
Registered: 10/17/03
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that union protection thing is prob like the anti-affirmative action iniative that passed but exit polls showed the vast majority of voters supported affirmative action. they just used doublespeak.
-------------------- "I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."
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looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
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Who supports affirmative action? No one should openly support racism.
-------------------- I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
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kilgore_trout
Stranger
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: looner2]
#4912568 - 11/09/05 07:33 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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firstly, you've once again displayed incredible ignorance.
secondly, like i said, many many people support it, even the ones who unknowingly voted against it. The federal gov supports it, thats why californias votes against it wont change anything even within the state.
-------------------- "I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."
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looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
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Quote:
kilgore_trout said: firstly, you've once again displayed incredible ignorance.
Sorry, I didn't know you weren't making a point on affirmative action, but more making a general statement about elections. Gosh, its only 9:30 in the morning... get some coffee cranky pants.
-------------------- I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
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kilgore_trout
Stranger
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: looner2]
#4912588 - 11/09/05 07:40 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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yeah, its 930, that means ive been up for 5 hours. i cant drink coffee bc of ulcers and it tastes like shit.
The voting and exit polls showed that most people dont equate affirmative action with racism or outright discrimination. They know it is a complex issue. more comples than your statement or the initiatives language.
-------------------- "I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."
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looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
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Quote:
kilgore_trout said: The voting and exit polls showed that most people dont equate affirmative action with racism or outright discrimination. They know it is a complex issue. more comples than your statement or the initiatives language.
Nope. Racism is always bad. Judge the individual, not the race. This is a moral point that must be uncompromised. You can espouse whatever hate and racism you have in yourself, but please, don't make it government policy. We've gone too far to revert back to this.
-------------------- I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
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kilgore_trout
Stranger
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: looner2]
#4912596 - 11/09/05 07:44 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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um, i said it wasnt racism, not racism is sometimes good.
-------------------- "I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."
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looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
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Quote:
kilgore_trout said: um, i said it wasnt racism, not racism is sometimes good.
It is racism. There is no arguing that. You are just like those white-supremecists spouting off that they don't hate blacks, but only love being white. It is ridiculous. Your kind should have been driven out of our country years ago.
I pray for the day when we stop seeing the color of someones skin as a representation of anything other than their unique contribution to the rainbow.
-------------------- I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
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kilgore_trout
Stranger
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: looner2]
#4912673 - 11/09/05 08:16 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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i think affirmative action is about diverse contribution.
All you said is there is no arguing that it isnt but didnt say why it is. Its not about hating or loving based on skin color.
Racism is hate, no one hates anyone in affirmative action. it is steps taken to correct a history of racism and its material manifestations. Its about enablement and equality through consciousness of social reality and progress.
It is about race consciousness but not racism or discrimination. Theres a good book about how race consciousness is essential in creating a society according the the USA's principles of liberal democratic society and autonomy. Liberal meaning its historical, philisophical, definition rather than what has become a contemporary conception of it. Liberal as in liberty and freedom, not whatever its getting defined as in dominant discourses in this country.
It uses notions of negative and positive autonomy to explicate the need for race consciouss policy in holding up to societal ideals and values.
-------------------- "I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."
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kilgore_trout
Stranger
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its called "the color of freedom" i believe by a white man named Cochran.
-------------------- "I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 4 months, 29 days
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: looner2]
#4912678 - 11/09/05 08:17 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
looner2 said: Who supports affirmative action? No one should openly support racism.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Funny. "Race consciousness" is exactly the kind of thing that a certain member named MagicalMystery seemed to be promoting.
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kilgore_trout
Stranger
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race consciousness is not used there like he did. it was consciousness of race, rather than a color-blind approach. It is not a racial national consciousness. this misunderstanding puts you far away from the acual ideas.
-------------------- "I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Being aware of race is one thing. Racial discrimination(i.e. affirmative action) is quite another. That goes far beyond simple "race consciousness."
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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BTW, you still haven't explained how Ancalagon's post was "far from reality."
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kilgore_trout
Stranger
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Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
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You havent made an argument explaining how it is discrimination or addressed my arguments that it is not. You just say "it is".
Wal-mart is a did say this in reality, but they also have been major opponents of state campaigns to raise the wage, and their lobbyists have done the same. I can see part of the argument, but small businesses benefit from more money being in their communities and statistics show that small businesses gain while national corporations lose. I can try to find these stats, but they are hard copies around the house somewhere. The labor costs arent the only factor, and dont make as big of a difference, and are less descisive than the article states.
Its prob a PR stunt for the company and a way of anti-corporates to support low wages and labor standards.
-------------------- "I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
You havent made an argument explaining how it is discrimination or addressed my arguments that it is not. You just say "it is".
If you had made such an argument, I would've addressed it. However, you have not made such an argument. You merely say "it isn't."
Quote:
I can see part of the argument, but small businesses benefit from more money being in their communities and statistics show that small businesses gain while national corporations lose. I can try to find these stats, but they are hard copies around the house somewhere. The labor costs arent the only factor, and dont make as big of a difference, and are less descisive than the article states.
I would really be interested in seeing these statistics, or at least their source. Regulation of business usually hurts small businesses more, since they are less able to pay the costs, so until I see these statistics, I'm going to be a bit skeptical towards these claims.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 4 months, 29 days
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Any system of hiring or acceptance not based on merit is at least somewhat discriminatory in nature.
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Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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Quote:
I can see part of the argument, but small businesses benefit from more money being in their communities
That goes without saying. The question is, how does raising the minimum wage lead to more money in a given community?
Quote:
and statistics show that small businesses gain while national corporations lose.
Again, it goes without saying that small business x will gain when it's competitors lose. The questions now are: how does the minimum wage cause small business x to gain and it's competitors to lose? The article I posted elucidates how contrary to what you say, minimum wage hikes can hurt small business far more than they hurt huge transnational corporations like Walmart. Also, what is so special about these small businesses that they should gain while national corporations lose?
Quote:
Its prob a PR stunt for the company and a way of anti-corporates to support low wages and labor standards.
I'm sure.
-------------------- ?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.? -Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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GabbaDj
BTH
Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,681
Loc: By The Lake
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: Ancalagon]
#4913461 - 11/09/05 01:12 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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I voted to end affirmative action on Prop 187 years ago..
The few examples I gave on minimum wage increases and workers compensation are just a small few of the things that Labor Unions lobby for that protects all workers.
When local government wanted to redefine overtime and allow businesses to offer compensatory time off instead of money it was the Unions that stepped in and said BULL SHIT..
When business wanted to redefine split time work IE. consecutive days worked, time worked without a break and the number of hours between work shifts. It was the Labor Unions that stepped in and stopped that from passing.
When big companies stop paying into their pensions its the Labor Unions that give their support by suing the company and forcing the law on them. Labor Unions also keep government programs like medicare and social security in check. These programs are part of union member retirement and so they fight for them and keep them from being raped by our government.
Union members only make up only 20% of California but the things that they fight for effect ALL California's workers. This is the same around the country.
This is what the governor is trying to stop..
Now without prior notice the government can propose laws against California's workers and theyve put a gag order to the number one opposition group...
God Help Us All.
-------------------- GabbaDj FAMM.ORG
Edited by GabbaDj (11/09/05 01:14 PM)
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GabbaDj
BTH
Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,681
Loc: By The Lake
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: Ancalagon]
#4913500 - 11/09/05 01:23 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yah, small businesses get hurt but I say fuck them.. If they only pay minimum wage then they deserve to be hurt..
I can see paying high school kids Minimum Wage but how does an employeer hire an adult and pay them as little as possible?
Fact is that raising minimum wage helps us all. The more people make, the more they spend. The more tax is generated and the better our econemy is.
-------------------- GabbaDj FAMM.ORG
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Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: GabbaDj]
#4913536 - 11/09/05 01:36 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Fact is that raising minimum wage helps us all. The more people make, the more they spend. The more tax is generated and the better our econemy is.
First of all, the object of the game isn't to generate the highest tax revenue possible -- not sure if that's what you're insinuating but high tax revenue bears very little (or only incidental) relation to a healthy economy. Second of all, if raising the minimum wage helps us all, why not raise it to $100 an hour? Just imagine how incredible the economy would be if no job could pay less than $100 an hour! Please research the law of diminishing marginal returns.
-------------------- ?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.? -Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: Ancalagon]
#4913543 - 11/09/05 01:38 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ancalagon said: Second of all, if raising the minimum wage helps us all, why not raise it to $100 an hour? Just imagine how incredible the economy would be if no job could pay less than $100 an hour!
Finally!! A Libertarian with something intelligent to say. Thank you.
-------------------- I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
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GabbaDj
BTH
Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,681
Loc: By The Lake
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: Ancalagon]
#4913559 - 11/09/05 01:45 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Can you be that dense?
-------------------- GabbaDj FAMM.ORG
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: GabbaDj]
#4913562 - 11/09/05 01:47 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
GabbaDj said: Yah, small businesses get hurt but I say fuck them.. If they only pay minimum wage then they deserve to be hurt..
How compassionate of you. What if all they can afford to pay is minimum wage?(or what if they can't even afford that?)
Quote:
I can see paying high school kids Minimum Wage but how does an employeer hire an adult and pay them as little as possible?
Just who do you think is taking these minimum wage jobs? People take minimum wage jobs when they're in high school or college, or living with their parents. Most move on to other things. Those that stay at these jobs tend to gain experience and get promoted.
Quote:
Fact is that raising minimum wage helps us all. The more people make, the more they spend. The more tax is generated and the better our econemy is.
You show an all too common misunderstanding of the relationship between money and wealth. Money is not wealth. Money is used as a medium of exchange for wealth. Having more money in society does not make us richer. In many cases, it can us poorer(a phenomenon known as inflation).
Furthermore, you misunderstand the relationship between wages and employment. The wages paid by a company are calculated to maximize cost-efficiency. They pay people a wage that will attract the optimum amount of employees while cutting as little into the profit margin as possible(I'm not here to debate the ethics of profit-making, only the reality of it). If you make a company raise its wages, they will reduce the number of employees so as to maintain that profit margin. In other words, all else being equal, making companies pay their workers more will increase unemployment.
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Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: GabbaDj]
#4913589 - 11/09/05 01:53 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
GabbaDj said: Can you be that dense?
Read the forum rules, you're not new here.
-------------------- ?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.? -Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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GabbaDj
BTH
Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,681
Loc: By The Lake
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Quote:
You show an all too common misunderstanding of the relationship between money and wealth. Money is not wealth. Money is used as a medium of exchange for wealth. Having more money in society does not make us richer. In many cases, it can us poorer(a phenomenon known as inflation).
Furthermore, you misunderstand the relationship between wages and employment. The wages paid by a company are calculated to maximize cost-efficiency. They pay people a wage that will attract the optimum amount of employees while cutting as little into the profit margin as possible(I'm not here to debate the ethics of profit-making, only the reality of it). If you make a company raise its wages, they will reduce the number of employees so as to maintain that profit margin. In other words, all else being equal, making companies pay their workers more will increase unemployment.
Blah blah blah blah..
Ok, so with California leading the way, politicians and government will slowly destroy the middle class by destroying the verry worker health, safety and retirement protections we enjoy today...
All the economics babble in the world cant deny the fact that shutting the Labor Unions out of the democratic process is a BAD thing for California workers.
Oooh and Unions are the biggest oposition group against Wall-Mart and by working with city government to plan for proper market share, all businesses get a chance to survive.
-------------------- GabbaDj FAMM.ORG
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GabbaDj
BTH
Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,681
Loc: By The Lake
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: Ancalagon]
#4913680 - 11/09/05 02:18 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ancalagon said:
Quote:
GabbaDj said: Can you be that dense?
Read the forum rules, you're not new here.
OOoh Sorry.
-------------------- GabbaDj FAMM.ORG
Edited by GabbaDj (11/09/05 02:19 PM)
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 4 months, 29 days
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: GabbaDj]
#4914326 - 11/09/05 04:54 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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If you have nothing intelligent to say, don't say anything at all. It you have the slightest bit of knowledge about economics, you would realize higher minimum wage laws does little to spur the economy. Not only that, but it would be the downfall of Ma & Pa business.
Perhaps you should observe your own density.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: GabbaDj]
#4914365 - 11/09/05 05:04 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
GabbaDj said: Blah blah blah blah..
Wow, you sure got me there.
Quote:
Ok, so with California leading the way, politicians and government will slowly destroy the middle class by destroying the verry worker health, safety and retirement protections we enjoy today...
Hmm...the only "protections" I see being destroyed are those ones which protect incompetent workers from getting fired, and those that protect the right of unions to decide for their members what political causes they have to support with their money.
Quote:
All the economics babble in the world cant deny the fact that shutting the Labor Unions out of the democratic process is a BAD thing for California workers.
Who's shutting them out? All I see them doing is letting the individuals within them have more of a say.
Quote:
Oooh and Unions are the biggest oposition group against Wall-Mart and by working with city government to plan for proper market share, all businesses get a chance to survive.
Sounds like someone needs to actually study some of this "economics babble." This density of yours is crushing me.
--------------------
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
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Re: ****** NO ON ALL 4 ******* Didnt pass after all... Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha [Re: GabbaDj]
#4914410 - 11/09/05 05:17 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Damn...this thread is all over the place. all i have to say is...
California = no sense of fiscal Reality
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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Catalysis
EtherealEngineer
Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: GabbaDj]
#4914762 - 11/09/05 06:46 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Its like people just dont know what the unions have done for everyone..
Unions haven't done shit for me except exclude me from jobs that I am perfectly capable of performing in favor of those who pay them dues. What the fuck is that? Its like now I have to pay to get a fucking job, gimme a break.
Unions are the biggest scam operation in this country. There was a time when they were useful but that time is not now. They cost employers money that could be paid to employees and they FORCE employees to give them a cut of their hard earned money. Its ridiculous.
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afoaf
CEO DBK?
Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: ****** NO ON ALL 4 ******* Didnt pass after all... Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha [Re: lonestar2004]
#4915709 - 11/09/05 10:18 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
lonestar2004 said: Damn...this thread is all over the place. all i have to say is...
California = no sense of fiscal Reality
ding ding ding!
seriously.
californians will vote bleeting heart every time.
we're STILL in a tight budgetary situation, digging ourselves out and the people don't even have the sense to enact a law that legally binds the state legislature to not spend more than they take in.
I mean...that's a no brainer.
nevermind the silly tenure law.
the main problems with our school system is systemic incompetency and waste.
fire some motherfuckers!
my muminlaw worked in LAUSD for over 35 years and some of the stories she has are abominable.
you'd vomit if you heard how money is spent and bad apples are coddled.
all because they vote with the stupid part of their brain that doesn't seem to grasp the fact that you can't spend money that you don't have no matter how big those little puppy dog's eyes are.
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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LucidDream
Hungry BlueFiend
Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 1,496
Loc: Planet of the Stupid Peop...
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: GabbaDj]
#4915733 - 11/09/05 10:23 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
GabbaDj said: Cutting employee hours, cutting labor, reduceing staff, minimumizing employee benefits and stopping their elected unions from fighting back..
Thats what this whole election is all about..
If thats not big business pulling the strings I dont know what else it could be....
Its all a crock of shit.
Fuckin-A well told!
-------------------- Sarcasm just one of my many talents.
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist
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Posts: 27,625
Loc: To the limit!
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Re: ****** NO ON ALL 4 ******* Didnt pass after all... Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha [Re: afoaf]
#4916742 - 11/10/05 07:10 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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California is falling off into an ocean of debt lollergator.
-------------------- "America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat “Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance. The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
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Phred
Fred's son
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Posts: 12,949
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Re: ****** NO ON ALL 4 ******* Didnt pass after all... Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha [Re: GabbaDj]
#4919461 - 11/10/05 07:07 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well... that didn't take long.
From http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/10/AR2005111000988.html
Quote:
Nissan Motor Co. announced Thursday it is moving its North American headquarters and nearly 1,300 jobs from California to the Nashville area to take advantage of the lower cost of doing business in the Southeast.
"The board of Nissan decided to relocate our North American headquarters, and we're coming to Tennessee," Nissan CEO Carlos Ghosn said at a news conference at the state Capitol attended by Gov. Phil Bredesen and other top state officials.
The headquarters, which has been based in Gardena, Calif., will relocate to Williamson County, a suburban area south of Nashville. . . .
Ghosn cited lower real estate and business taxes as major reasons for the move.
"The costs of doing business in Southern California are much higher than the costs of doing business in Tennessee," he said.
Plus, housing is much cheaper for employees, and there's no state income tax.
This won't be the last corporation treating these latest votes as the straw that broke the camel's back. Count on it.
Phred
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afoaf
CEO DBK?
Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: ****** NO ON ALL 4 ******* Didnt pass after all... Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha [Re: Phred]
#4924277 - 11/11/05 10:23 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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I wonder how many union jobs will disappear with that relocation...
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
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Re: ****** NO ON ALL 4 ******* Didnt pass after all... Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha [Re: afoaf]
#4925410 - 11/12/05 10:28 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Nissan is non-union but there's this from: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/aug2001/lab-a21.shtml
"While Nissan workers receive comparable wages to their counterparts at GM and Ford, health benefits lag behind."
If the World Socialist Website says wages are comparable to union shops I'll believe them. As to lesser health benefits, anyone paying much attention has read that GM is in huge trouble because of, and seeking to decrease, its health care obligations.
What difference it makes whether they're union jobs or not I cannot tell. They're still gone.
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afoaf
CEO DBK?
Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: ****** NO ON ALL 4 ******* Didnt pass after all... Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha [Re: zappaisgod]
#4925967 - 11/12/05 02:17 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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it's because moderately educated people doing work that should have been almost completely replaced by robotics don't deserve lavish health benefits, but, more importantly, the market won't bear them.
I know you know this, I'm just trying to clarify and repeat the point so that the union workers in this thread can see what their union activism gets the in the end.
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
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Re: ****** NO ON ALL 4 ******* Didnt pass after all... Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha [Re: afoaf]
#4926555 - 11/12/05 05:50 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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It gets a near dead GM and Ford and several airlines.
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afoaf
CEO DBK?
Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: ****** NO ON ALL 4 ******* Didnt pass after all... Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha [Re: zappaisgod]
#4926708 - 11/12/05 06:52 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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and driven me to self sufficiency so that I never have to pay some sloppy turd $200 to plumb a sink.
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
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Re: ****** NO ON ALL 4 ******* Didnt pass after all... Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha [Re: afoaf]
#4926754 - 11/12/05 07:17 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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All of the sloppy turds I know either own their own business or are one of a few employees. None union. Good for you for learning how to do shit though
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afoaf
CEO DBK?
Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: ****** NO ON ALL 4 ******* Didnt pass after all... Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha [Re: zappaisgod]
#4927291 - 11/12/05 10:10 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm martha motherfucking stewart with a blowtorch...
for copper plumbing and creme brulee
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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