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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Did You Vote? [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4912557 - 11/09/05 07:23 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Who supports affirmative action? No one should openly support racism.


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Offlinekilgore_trout
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Registered: 10/17/03
Posts: 1,607
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Did You Vote? [Re: looner2]
    #4912568 - 11/09/05 07:33 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

firstly, you've once again displayed incredible ignorance.

secondly, like i said, many many people support it, even the ones who unknowingly voted against it. The federal gov supports it, thats why californias votes against it wont change anything even within the state.


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"I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."

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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Did You Vote? [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4912576 - 11/09/05 07:35 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

kilgore_trout said:
firstly, you've once again displayed incredible ignorance.




Sorry, I didn't know you weren't making a point on affirmative action, but more making a general statement about elections. Gosh, its only 9:30 in the morning... get some coffee cranky pants.


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Offlinekilgore_trout
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Registered: 10/17/03
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Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Did You Vote? [Re: looner2]
    #4912588 - 11/09/05 07:40 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

yeah, its 930, that means ive been up for 5 hours. i cant drink coffee bc of ulcers and it tastes like shit.

The voting and exit polls showed that most people dont equate affirmative action with racism or outright discrimination. They know it is a complex issue. more comples than your statement or the initiatives language.


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"I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."

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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Did You Vote? [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4912591 - 11/09/05 07:42 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

kilgore_trout said:
The voting and exit polls showed that most people dont equate affirmative action with racism or outright discrimination. They know it is a complex issue. more comples than your statement or the initiatives language.




Nope. Racism is always bad. Judge the individual, not the race. This is a moral point that must be uncompromised. You can espouse whatever hate and racism you have in yourself, but please, don't make it government policy. We've gone too far to revert back to this.


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Offlinekilgore_trout
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Registered: 10/17/03
Posts: 1,607
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Did You Vote? [Re: looner2]
    #4912596 - 11/09/05 07:44 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

um, i said it wasnt racism, not racism is sometimes good.


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"I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."

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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Did You Vote? [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4912609 - 11/09/05 07:47 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

kilgore_trout said:
um, i said it wasnt racism, not racism is sometimes good.




It is racism. There is no arguing that. You are just like those white-supremecists spouting off that they don't hate blacks, but only love being white. It is ridiculous. Your kind should have been driven out of our country years ago.

I pray for the day when we stop seeing the color of someones skin as a representation of anything other than their unique contribution to the rainbow.


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Offlinekilgore_trout
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Registered: 10/17/03
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Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Did You Vote? [Re: looner2]
    #4912673 - 11/09/05 08:16 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

i think affirmative action is about diverse contribution.

All you said is there is no arguing that it isnt but didnt say why it is. Its not about hating or loving based on skin color.

Racism is hate, no one hates anyone in affirmative action. it is steps taken to correct a history of racism and its material manifestations. Its about enablement and equality through consciousness of social reality and progress.

It is about race consciousness but not racism or discrimination. Theres a good book about how race consciousness is essential in creating a society according the the USA's principles of liberal democratic society and autonomy. Liberal meaning its historical, philisophical, definition rather than what has become a contemporary conception of it. Liberal as in liberty and freedom, not whatever its getting defined as in dominant discourses in this country.

It uses notions of negative and positive autonomy to explicate the need for race consciouss policy in holding up to societal ideals and values.


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"I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."

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Offlinekilgore_trout
Stranger
Registered: 10/17/03
Posts: 1,607
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Did You Vote? [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4912676 - 11/09/05 08:16 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

its called "the color of freedom" i believe by a white man named Cochran.


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"I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."

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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: looner2]
    #4912678 - 11/09/05 08:17 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Who supports affirmative action? No one should openly support racism.



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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4912809 - 11/09/05 09:26 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Funny. "Race consciousness" is exactly the kind of thing that a certain member named MagicalMystery seemed to be promoting.


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Offlinekilgore_trout
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Registered: 10/17/03
Posts: 1,607
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Did You Vote? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4912827 - 11/09/05 09:31 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

race consciousness is not used there like he did. it was consciousness of race, rather than a color-blind approach. It is not a racial national consciousness. this misunderstanding puts you far away from the acual ideas.


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"I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4912834 - 11/09/05 09:35 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Being aware of race is one thing. Racial discrimination(i.e. affirmative action) is quite another. That goes far beyond simple "race consciousness."


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4912838 - 11/09/05 09:36 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

BTW, you still haven't explained how Ancalagon's post was "far from reality."


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Offlinekilgore_trout
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4912905 - 11/09/05 10:03 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

You havent made an argument explaining how it is discrimination or addressed my arguments that it is not. You just say "it is".

Wal-mart is a did say this in reality, but they also have been major opponents of state campaigns to raise the wage, and their lobbyists have done the same. I can see part of the argument, but small businesses benefit from more money being in their communities and statistics show that small businesses gain while national corporations lose. I can try to find these stats, but they are hard copies around the house somewhere. The labor costs arent the only factor, and dont make as big of a difference, and are less descisive than the article states.

Its prob a PR stunt for the company and a way of anti-corporates to support low wages and labor standards.


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"I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."

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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4912923 - 11/09/05 10:09 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

You havent made an argument explaining how it is discrimination or addressed my arguments that it is not. You just say "it is".



If you had made such an argument, I would've addressed it. However, you have not made such an argument. You merely say "it isn't."

Quote:

I can see part of the argument, but small businesses benefit from more money being in their communities and statistics show that small businesses gain while national corporations lose. I can try to find these stats, but they are hard copies around the house somewhere. The labor costs arent the only factor, and dont make as big of a difference, and are less descisive than the article states.



I would really be interested in seeing these statistics, or at least their source. Regulation of business usually hurts small businesses more, since they are less able to pay the costs, so until I see these statistics, I'm going to be a bit skeptical towards these claims.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4912930 - 11/09/05 10:12 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Any system of hiring or acceptance not based on merit is at least somewhat discriminatory in nature.

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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Did You Vote? [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4912936 - 11/09/05 10:14 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I can see part of the argument, but small businesses benefit from more money being in their communities



That goes without saying. The question is, how does raising the minimum wage lead to more money in a given community?

Quote:

and statistics show that small businesses gain while national corporations lose.



Again, it goes without saying that small business x will gain when it's competitors lose. The questions now are: how does the minimum wage cause small business x to gain and it's competitors to lose? The article I posted elucidates how contrary to what you say, minimum wage hikes can hurt small business far more than they hurt huge transnational corporations like Walmart. Also, what is so special about these small businesses that they should gain while national corporations lose?

Quote:

Its prob a PR stunt for the company and a way of anti-corporates to support low wages and labor standards.



I'm sure.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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InvisibleGabbaDjS
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4913461 - 11/09/05 01:12 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I voted to end affirmative action on Prop 187 years ago..

The few examples I gave on minimum wage increases and workers compensation are just a small few of the things that Labor Unions lobby for that protects all workers.

When local government wanted to redefine overtime and allow businesses to offer compensatory time off instead of money it was the Unions that stepped in and said BULL SHIT..

When business wanted to redefine split time work IE. consecutive days worked, time worked without a break and the number of hours between work shifts. It was the Labor Unions that stepped in and stopped that from passing.

When big companies stop paying into their pensions its the Labor Unions that give their support by suing the company and forcing the law on them.
Labor Unions also keep government programs like medicare and social security in check. These programs are part of union member retirement and so they fight for them and keep them from being raped by our government.

Union members only make up only 20% of California but the things that they fight for effect ALL California's workers. This is the same around the country.

This is what the governor is trying to stop..

Now without prior notice the government can propose laws against California's workers and theyve put a gag order to the number one opposition group...

God Help Us All.


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GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG             

Edited by GabbaDj (11/09/05 01:14 PM)

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InvisibleGabbaDjS
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Re: Did You Vote? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4913500 - 11/09/05 01:23 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Yah, small businesses get hurt but I say fuck them.. If they only pay minimum wage then they deserve to be hurt..

I can see paying high school kids Minimum Wage but how does an employeer hire an adult and pay them as little as possible?

Fact is that raising minimum wage helps us all. The more people make, the more they spend. The more tax is generated and the better our econemy is.


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GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG             

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