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Offlinerock_ten
newbie
Registered: 07/13/04
Posts: 106
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
a good idea for deciding on cactus dosage
    #4900318 - 11/06/05 12:12 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Hey dudes, this is quoted from http://www.erowid.org/plants/cacti/cacti_dose1.shtml

if "max safe" is ~7X "threshold" you can safely follow any
"ineffective" dose with 7X increase. so take 95g/8 == 11.87 g to see
if (7/8)*95g == 83.12 g is reasonable.

you could take the small dose & large dose on successive days. if the
small dose does not buzz you, then tachyphylaxis (sp?) won't keep you
from a strong trip the next day. of course, if it *does* buzz you, you
don't want to try to trip hard the next day anyway. in that case wait
a day and take "somewhat" less than the whole "large dose".


This only really works if you DONT get an effect from the trial dose. If you do, how do you know how much you can safely increase the dose?

--Joe

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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 16 years, 2 hours
Re: a good idea for deciding on cactus dosage [Re: rock_ten]
    #4900640 - 11/06/05 02:05 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I think that is pretty risky. Think if you didn't feel anything on one gram of mushrooms and decided to take 7 the next time. If the cactus works at 11 grams then dosage is pretty intuitive. If not I still wouldn't recommending uping the dosage 7x. Depending on where you get the cactus the recommended dose is usually 15-30 grams. I always just ask the vendor. But if you grow your own, then I think you just have to make an educated guess.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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InvisibleKoala Koolio
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Registered: 01/07/04
Posts: 7,752
Re: a good idea for deciding on cactus dosage [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4900743 - 11/06/05 02:48 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

15-30 is a bit on the powerful side. 30 perhaps, but few vendors have something that's very noticable at 15.


--------------------
You're not like the others. You like the same things I do. Wax paper, boiled football leather... dog breath. We're not hitch-hiking anymore, we're riding!

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Offlinerock_ten
newbie
Registered: 07/13/04
Posts: 106
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: a good idea for deciding on cactus dosage [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4900767 - 11/06/05 03:02 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
I think that is pretty risky. Think if you didn't feel anything on one gram of mushrooms and decided to take 7 the next time.




thats totally irrelevant about shrooms. This is ofcourse a different drug. AFAIK this 7x threshold = OD for mescaline cactii is fairly well established and used.

Although, if you DID take 7g of mushrooms youd be physically safe atleast. This cactus issue is about avoiding ODing on mescaline at something like 1000mg

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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 16 years, 2 hours
Re: a good idea for deciding on cactus dosage [Re: rock_ten]
    #4900940 - 11/06/05 04:15 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not saying risky in terms of overdose, I'm saying shooting for the highest non-toxic dose possible is dangerous. Even though 6 times the threshold dose wont kill you, that is still about 900mg of mescaline. You can trip pretty nicely for 10 hours on a third as much.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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OfflineEkstaza
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Registered: 04/10/03
Posts: 4,324
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Re: a good idea for deciding on cactus dosage [Re: rock_ten]
    #4901904 - 11/06/05 08:40 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

rock_ten said:
AFAIK this 7x threshold = OD for mescaline cactii is fairly well established and used.



Do you have a source for this?


http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal096.shtml
Quote:


Mescaline has always been the central standard against which all other compounds are viewed. Even the United States Chemical Warfare group, in their human studies of a number of substituted phenethylamines, used mescaline as the reference material for both quantitative and qualitative comparisons. The Edgewood Arsenal code number for it was EA-1306. All psychedelics are given properties that are something like "twice the potency of mescaline" or "twice as long-lived as mescaline." This simple drug is truly the central prototype against which everything else is measured. The earliest studies with the "psychotomimetic amphetamines" had quantitative psychological numbers attached that read as "mescaline units." Mescaline was cast in concrete as being active at the 3.75 mg/kg level. That means for a 80 kilogram person (a 170 pound person) a dose of 300 milligrams. If a new compound proved to be active at 30 milligrams, there was a M.U. level of 10 put into the published literature. The behavioral biologists were happy, because now they had numbers to represent psychological properties. But in truth, none of this represented the magic of this material, the nature of the experience itself. That is why, in this Book II, there is only one line given to "dosage," but a full page given to "qualitative comments".




This would make my threshold dose about 409mg. That would mean that my OD level according to your formula there would be approximately 2863mg. A dose that I wouldn't be taking under any circumstances.

Quote:

rock_ten said:
This cactus issue is about avoiding ODing on mescaline at something like 1000mg



People have taken way more mescaline than 1000mg and been perfectly fine. The most I've ever taken was 800mg, but that wasn't too, terribly intense. It just made me extremely worn out the next day. I loved it.


http://www.erowid.org/ask/ask.cgi?ID=1778
Quote:


Any substance can be deadly in high enough quantities, even water. That being said, mescaline is one of the safest drugs known. There have been no verified human deaths from mescaline ever, although K. Trout states that there is one unconfirmed (and unconfirmable) report of a person who died during military experiments with the drug, after receiving a 15 gram dose intravenously (or about 150-200mg/kg).

In experiments with rats, the LD50 for mescaline has been established in the range of 800-1200mg/kg orally.

Considering the human dose of mescaline is around 200-500mg orally, this means you would have to try very hard to take a fatal dose. It would be extremely unlikely to happen accidentally.




--------------------
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

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OfflinemotamanM
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Registered: 12/18/02
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Re: a good idea for deciding on cactus dosage [Re: rock_ten]
    #4902157 - 11/06/05 09:24 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

This would make my threshold dose about 409mg. That would mean that my OD level according to your formula there would be approximately 2863mg. A dose that I wouldn't be taking under any circumstances.

    Quote:
    rock_ten said:
    This cactus issue is about avoiding ODing on mescaline at something like 1000mg


People have taken way more mescaline than 1000mg and been perfectly fine. The most I've ever taken was 800mg, but that wasn't too, terribly intense. It just made me extremely worn out the next day. I loved it.





An adult ODing on 1000 mgs? I don't weigh much and I am 100% sure that wouldn't OD me..  :smirk:

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Offlinerock_ten
newbie
Registered: 07/13/04
Posts: 106
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: a good idea for deciding on cactus dosage [Re: motaman]
    #4903410 - 11/07/05 03:51 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

werd - no i dont have a source for the 7x threshold shit, ive just heard it in quite a few different places over time. To clarify, i didnt suggest "shooting for" the 7x dose, just that it would be physically safe (if the 7x shit was correct)

thanks for the replies

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Offlineheavensgate
Stranger
Registered: 05/27/05 Happy 19th Shroomiversary!
Posts: 149
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: a good idea for deciding on cactus dosage [Re: rock_ten]
    #4903864 - 11/07/05 10:01 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Has any kind of LD50 with mescaline REALLY been established with humans? These cacti have been used for so many years, and rarely have I ever heard of anyone overdosing on mescaline, although it is not unheard of...

The standard preparation methods call for 12-14 inches of san pedro or peruvian torch...depending on the potency though, that length of cactus might not even really give you much of a trip, or possibly, it could kill you.

Anyway, I am considering trying san pedro/mescaline sometime in the future, and would like to hear from other people about what kind of dose they have found successful for dried or fresh cactus weight...or length. I'm sure 50% of the san pedro cuttings out there would give you a great experience just with a 12 inch cutting, but realistically, what are the odds that this could kill someone..? I suppose the best method would be just to order a good amount from the same vendor and establish potency.

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InvisibleKoala Koolio
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Registered: 01/07/04
Posts: 7,752
Re: a good idea for deciding on cactus dosage [Re: heavensgate]
    #4904127 - 11/07/05 11:45 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I realize I'm *so very slightly* generalizing, but I think it's safe to say that you will never, in your lifetime, hear of someone dying on 12-14 (even 2 feet) of pedro. (without some extremely severe condition, or infectious mold on the cactus, etc). I think, that while there is always that chance in a million (probably literally), it is beyond safe to say that no one is going to die from a foot cutting.

12" will much more likely leave you unsatisfied than overwhelmed, though there is plenty of middle ground.

As far as determining average potency based on vendor, eh. As far as dried stuff goes, you have different ranges, some vendors near the top, others near the bottom. For live cuttings, one vendor might ship out some wonderful potent ones one week, and void 12" cuttings you won't feel a thing with the next. Different cacti, same vendor. There are tons of variations and strains of different trichocereus. Your average entho vendor has no clue what they have.

On top of that, there are other factors that play into potency. Time of year it's harvested is one. The healthiness of the plant. some say starvation works, I've never seen real data back this up. Most speculation I've read from well established cactophiles has concluded quite the opposite. Nutrients, water, light, provide for good quality. Though a stressed pedro will obviously be more potent than weight, it's likely no different from you partially drying some cubensis.

As far as live cuttings go, if you're using a site like BBB... I'd go for the pedro, maybe bridgesii. Pachanoi are almost always backeberg clones. There are still the million other factors in potency, but the genetics probably won't be a worry with these. Such clones have proven tremendous potency as well as minimal. Highest I've seen is me!'s extraction, yielding 2100mg/4 feet. It's just a reliable plant that can eliminate one crucial factor (in my opinion) which is genetics. Of course, if you're interested in a serious collection, the more sources the better.

As far as peruvianus go, they've got a hell of a name, and generally a reputation of being more potent. Though the potential is there, they have a wider range of potency, often dropping far below pedro averages. The reason is most likely due to having completely different species for sale, all marked as peruvianus. If one did infact order peruvianus skin from peru, it'd likely have great potency, whatever the actual species. This is probably a major contributor to the well established name for peruvian torch.

It has been speculated (and I've seen little good information to counter it... but I would like to see such info) that only the shorter spined peruvianus are of the "true" peruvianus species that was originally discovered. You don't often see these. Theres also the factor that color and spine growth, among other things, can differ when grown in the states as opposed to it's natural area.

The more potent "peruvianus sold" are often really Trichocereus macrogonus. The "bunk" ones (often leading to people bitching on these forums :smile: ) are often Trichocereus cuzcoensis (Aka Peruvianus kk242) (though thats not to say there aren't plenty of weak pachanoi, etc). The point is that this cactus is *very* often (perhaps more often than not) sold as peruvianus. BBB is one such site that sells these as peruvianus, though they apparently ship other things under the name too, a roll of the dice.

Everything is debatable/up in the air. But I think it can be agreed that the whole genus is a mess. Theres more information and speculation on this at the nook than you could ever read :smile: And it might be nice to pick up K. Trout's new book at BBB (a plug, to balance out with my previous comment about them. :smile: )


--------------------
You're not like the others. You like the same things I do. Wax paper, boiled football leather... dog breath. We're not hitch-hiking anymore, we're riding!

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Offlinerock_ten
newbie
Registered: 07/13/04
Posts: 106
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: a good idea for deciding on cactus dosage [Re: Koala Koolio]
    #4904542 - 11/07/05 01:57 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

wow long post on that. Ive read everything I can find on dosage, fresh and dry, and theres SO much varying advice. Basically my plan at the moment is to get a 14-16 x 2.5 inch San Pedro and eat it all. I dont fear it being too strong, but it may well turn out to be the opposite.

Theres only so much benefit in reading about supposed potency, volume or mass to use, etc - in the end just pick some kind of average and do it, and find out for yourself. I do find its rather expensive to buy enough cactus, so growing is really the best way in the end. Im not going to grow this one though since Ive never successfully (tried 50g powder of TP, no effects) used mescaline yet

http://www.erowid.org/plants/cacti/cacti_preparation2.shtml has some numbers if you want to think about them

I intend to try eating it raw by the way. If I get it on time to use it, ill let you know how it goes

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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: a good idea for deciding on cactus dosage [Re: heavensgate]
    #4906286 - 11/07/05 08:21 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

heavensgate said:
Has any kind of LD50 with mescaline REALLY been established with humans? These cacti have been used for so many years, and rarely have I ever heard of anyone overdosing on mescaline, although it is not unheard of...



There will most likely never be a LD-50 determined for humans because for it to happen, half of the test subjects have to die.

Quote:

heavensgate said:
The standard preparation methods call for 12-14 inches of san pedro or peruvian torch...depending on the potency though, that length of cactus might not even really give you much of a trip, or possibly, it could kill you.



Not likely unless you are already at risk of dying from some pre-existing condition, i.e. heart disease, high blood pressure, etc. In which case you made the decision to risk it in the first place taking any amount of mescaline. You could, however, end up in a very bad way for a short while and recover completely, but I doubt very seriously that the amount of mescaline in a 12-14" cactus would do it.

OD does not mean dying.

Quote:

heavensgate said:
Anyway, I am considering trying san pedro/mescaline sometime in the future, and would like to hear from other people about what kind of dose they have found successful for dried or fresh cactus weight...or length. I'm sure 50% of the san pedro cuttings out there would give you a great experience just with a 12 inch cutting, but realistically, what are the odds that this could kill someone..? I suppose the best method would be just to order a good amount from the same vendor and establish potency.



According to the link I provided above, There has only been one reported, but unconfirmed, death involving mescaline ever and that was from an injection of 15 grams of pure mescaline. I'd say that the odds are slim.


--------------------
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

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OfflineBizOng719
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Registered: 11/07/05
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Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
good dosage for first time trip [Re: Ekstaza]
    #4906620 - 11/07/05 09:15 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

me and some of my friends are thinking about doing some San Pedro, but i have never tripped before, what would be a good dosage for a first time trip

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InvisibleKoala Koolio
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Re: good dosage for first time trip [Re: BizOng719]
    #4906791 - 11/07/05 09:37 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I take it you haven't read the posts?


--------------------
You're not like the others. You like the same things I do. Wax paper, boiled football leather... dog breath. We're not hitch-hiking anymore, we're riding!

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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: good dosage for first time trip [Re: BizOng719]
    #4910362 - 11/08/05 06:04 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Giving out dosage advice is a no-no but I can tell you where to look for info that can help you figure it out for yourself.
www.erowid.com


--------------------
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

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