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OfflineJammer
Computers areMORE Addictive!

Registered: 11/04/00
Posts: 3,998
Loc: (God's Country) - USA
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVESTIGATION
    #489268 - 12/12/01 09:38 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

PF was selling this FBI document for $10.00. It's about the FBI's invistigation of the legalities of the spore retailer business. The site now has it posted for free. Copy/paste: http://www.fanaticus.com/forensic.htm



The FBI seemed to of been mainly concerend as to what stage mycelium becomes illeagle. There conclusions might surprise many here. (as it did me)

For starters, for everyone that thinks mycelium syringies are illeagle you might want to read the FBI's conclusion. Based on there own tests, most cubie mycelum is very much legal! Even though we all know that eating large amounts of the white fungus will make you trip, they didnt detect any drugs in all but the most mature mycelium!


Here is the full report:

JOURNAL OF FORENSIC SCIENCES
American Academy of Forensic Sciences (1948)
Volume 45 - Number 3 - May 2000 - JFSCAS 45 (3)513-754 (2000)

DETECTING PSYCHOACTIVE DRUGS IN THE DEVELOPMENTAL STAGES OF MUSHROOMS
Susan T Gross, B.A.
Forensic Scientist, Minnesota Forensic Science Laboratory, 1246 University Ave. St. Paul, Minnesota.
This project was supported by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). Minneapolis Field Office.
Received 26 Feb. 1999: and in revised form 12 May 1999: accepted 23 Aug. 1999.

REFERENCE: Gross ST. Detecting psychoactive drugs in the developmental stages of mushrooms. J Forensic Sci 2000;45(3):527-537.

ABSTRACT: The following questions regarding the detection of psychoactive drugs in mushrooms are addressed: At what stage of the mushroom development can the psychoactive drugs psilocyn and psilocybin be identified, and what effect does light have on the growth of these mushrooms. To answer these questions. Psilocybe cyanescens Wakefield mushrooms were grown from their spores in a controlled setting. At various times of their development, samples were taken and analyzed for psilocyn and psilocybin. Knowing what stage of development the psychoactive drugs can be identified may be useful to law enforcement personnel and forensic chemists. Methanolic extracts of various samples were analyzed by TLC and by GC/MS. It was determined that the mycelium knot stage of the mushroom was the earliest stage at which the psychoactive drugs could be detected. It was observed that light affected the time of development and the appearance of these mushrooms.

KEYWORDS: forensic science. psilocyn. psilocybin. psychotropic mushrooms

Law enforcement agencies in Minnesota are beginning to see an increased number of mushroom growing operations. Knowing what stage of development the psychoactive drugs can be identitied may be useful to law enforcement personnel and forensic chemists. This information is important because in the state of Minnesota it is illegal to possess any material, compound, mixture or preparation which contain any quantity of psilocyn and/or psilocybin (I).

The word mushroom is a general term used to describe the relatively large and fleshy fruiting bodies of fungi, particularly all gill fungi. They are fungi that differ from plants in that these lack roots,stems, leaves, flowers, seeds and chlorophyll. Since mushrooms lack chlorophyll, they depend upon their surrounding medium for their nutrients. The vegetative portion of the fungus accumulates a reserve of food from the immediate surroundings in order to develop fruiting bodies (2-3).

Fungi are categorized as follows: kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus, and species. Mushrooms containing psychotropic drugs are classified in the kingdom Mycota, the phylum Basidiomycota, the class Hymenomycetes, and the order Agaricales. There are four families of mushrooms, Strophariaceae, Bolbitiaceae, Coprinaceae, and Cortinariaceae, that contain psilocybin, psilocyn, or related alkalojds with an indolic nucleus. The genus and species of Psilocybe mushrooms that were grown were identified as Psilocybe cyanescens. The pleurocystidia sizes noted in the keys describing the Psilocybe cyanescens mushroom varied slightly from the mushrooms grown. This may indicate a variant of this species (communication with Dr. David McLaughlin, Plant Biology Department, University of Minnesota) (2,4,5-8).

The four stages making up the life cycle of a mushroom are the spores, the mycelium, the primordia, and the mature fruit. The spores are the reproductive cells or "seeds" of the fungi (Fig. I - photo of spores under magnification). Germination of the spores takes place when a suitable substrate and correct environmental conditions are present. These spores grow outward seeking nutrients and branch out forming a complex "cob-like" system. This "cob-Iike" system is the vegetative portion of the fungus which is called the mycelium (Fig. 2 - photo of mycelium spreading in PF jar). The mycelium absorbs water and nutrients from the substrate which is used in the production of the fruiting bodies. The ability of a fungus to begin fruiting is affected by genetic competence and various environmental factors including moisture, temperature, light, and aeration. The formation and growth of the fruiting bodies is known as primordia and has been referred to as "mycelium knots" and "pinheads." The "mycelium knot" is referring to the initial fruiting body that is formed when the mycelium clumps together and seems to form a "knot" (Fig. 3 - photo of birthed PF cake and pins). This knot eventually grows into the 'pinhead,' a plump growth, yellow in color and with a brown tip (Fig. 4 - photo of invitro primordia in PF jar). The fruit is considered mature when it is able to disperse spores and begin this life cycle over again (Figs. 5-6 - photos of mature PF race shrooms on cakes) (2,9).


METHODS
The spores used in this experiment were obtained legally through an advertisement in High Times Magazine from Psylocybe Fanaticus (PFTek Seattle, WA). The spores were received in 10 mL syringes in an aqueous solution. The spore solutions were each viewed using a 1250X-magnification microscope.

Directions for preparing the growing media were received with the spores. Supplies used for the growing media were half-pint wide-mouth jars (KerrGroup, Inc. Jackson, TN), horticultural vermiculite (Schultz, St. Louis MO), brown rice powder and distilled water. The canning lids were prepared before the mixture was added to the jars. The rubber sealing edge of the canning lids were turned upwards and four holes were punched symmetrically around the outer edge. A mixture of one fourth cup brown rice powder, one half cup vermiculite and one fourth cup distilled water was prepared for each half pint jar. This mixture was placed into the jars and covered with dry vermiculite. The lids were screwed on tightly and aluminum foil was used to cover the lid to prevent additional water from entering the jars during sterilization.

Since growing media is susceptible to contamination, the top layer of dry vermiculite was used to keep airborne contaminants from the wet substrate and absorb and regulate moisture transpiration and condensation (10). The jars with the growing media mixture were sterilized at 120?C for 20 minutes. The jars were cooled before inoculation. Contamination was detectable through various colors from pastels to black. The growing media that became contaminated was observed but was not analyzed.

Eight jars per week were inoculated with I0 mL of spore solution. This was done for 9 weeks for a total of 72 inoculations. In addition to the eight jars inoculated per week, one jar per week was not inoculated and was used as a control blank. During the first four weeks, all samples were allowed to grow under indirect light. The last five weeks, half of the samples were allowed to grow under indirect light while the other half were kept in the dark. The jars kept in the dark were exposed to light only when samples were taken. Each jar was covered with parafilm after inoculation to keep airborne contaminates from the substrate.

The samples were transferred to terrariums after the pinheads became came too large for the Jars they were growing in. Two different terrariums were used for this experiment. The first one consisted of a styrofoam cooler with a piece of plexiglas inside of it. The second terrarium consisted of a 2-1iter pop bottle with the middle portion cut out. To maintain a high level of humidity, both terrariums were sprayed with distilled water two to four times a day. Fanning the chamber with the lids two to four times a day also kept the terrariums well ventilated.

The growth and colonization was monitored for the samples grown under indirect light. The mycelium was sampled 13 days after inoculation. Samples were also taken from each jar at various stages of growth of the mycelium, primordia and the mature fruit. The growth of the mycelium, primordia and the mature fruit was monitored and compared for the samples grown under indirect light and in the dark simultaneously.


SAMPLE PREPARATION
Samples were allowed to soak in methanol overnight. The methanol was decanted into a shell vial which was then condensed to near dryness ( The extracts were cleaned up with an acid solution for GC/MS analysis. A0.2 N solution of sulfuric acid was used to resuspend and acidify the extract. This solution was washed twice with chloroform to remove the neutral organic compounds. The samples were made basic with sodium bicarbonate and the psychoactive drugs were extracted twice with chloroform. The chloroform was evaporated and the sample was reconstituted with methanol for GC/MS analysis.


THIN-LAYER CHROMATOGRAPHY
TLC was carried out on 5 X 10 cm silica gel plates (Analtech Newar, DE). Psilocyn (Alltech State College, PA) and psilocybin (Alltech State College, PA) standards were spotted on each plate along with the sample extracts. The plates were developed to 6 cm at room temperature in a covered development tank with a 9: I chloroform/methanol solution. A beaker containing 3 mL of ammonium hydroxide was placed in the tank to assist in development. The plate was dried with low heat and visualized with a paradimethylarninobenzaldehyde (p-DMAB) spray reagent. (The p- DMAB reagent consisted of 2 9 of p-DMAB in 50 mL of ethanol and 50 mL of hydrochloric acid.) The relative Rr value of psilocybin is 0.00 and the relative Rr value of psilocyn is 0.85.

The lower limit of detection was determined by serial dilutions of the psilocyn standard and spotting/developing it until the spot associated with the standard was not seen. The lower limit of detection for the TLC method was determined to be approximately 0.03 mg/mL.


GAS CHROMATOGRAPH/MASS SPECTROMETER
The Hewlett Packard gas chromatograph 5890 Series II interfaced with the Hewlett Packard 5970 series mass selective detector (MSD) and the Hewlett Packard GI800A gas chromatograph detector system (GCD) were used for the detection of the analytes. These two instruments are equivalent and samples were run on specific instruments depending upon their availability. An HP-1 12 m column (film thickness 0.33 um, column id 0.2 mm) was used for the gas chromatography (GC). The parameters for the GCD were as follows: injection port 250?C and detector temperature 280?C. Method SCAN70-Low mass 35, high mass 425, initial temperature 70?C, ramp rate 25?C/min and final temperature 300?C hold for 3.0 minutes. The parameters for the MSD were as follows: injection port 265?C and detector temperature 280?C. Method SCN90-Low mass 35, high mass 400, initial temperature 90?C, ramp rate 25?C/min, and final temperature 300?C hold for 4.0 minutes. Sample volume was approximately 3 uL with the split ratio of 30:1.


LOWER LIMIT OF DETECTION
The lower limit of detection for both instruments was determined by serial dilutions of the psilocyn standard and analyzing it until a peak at the correct retention time containing the prominent ions 44, 58, 77, 159, and 204 was not detected. The lower limit of detection was determined to be approximately 0.1 mg/mL for both instruments.


RESULTS AND DISCUSSION
Identifcation of the mushrooms grown in this project was made by examination of the spores, fruiting bodies and the mature mushroom. Spores were examined for their color, shape, and size. The spores were purple to brown in color and elliptical to oblong elliptical in shape. They ranged in size from 6.7-8.2 um by 12.6-15.0 um. The fruiting bodies were examined mainly for color. The mature mushroom was examined for shape, size, color, texture, gill characteristics, and general appearance.

The original spore solutions were analyzed by TLC and by GC/MS. No psilocyn or psilocybin were detected in any of the spore solutions.

Mycelium growth was observed from 4 to 6 days. Fruiting bodies were observed from 24 to 48 days. The average amount of time for the primordia to appear was 32 days. Samples of mycelium were taken after 13 days of growth, 20 days of growth, and at various other days of growth. A total of 29 samples of the white mycelium growth were analyzed. No psilocyn or psilocybin was detected in any of these 29 samples. Nine of the 29 samples were confirmed by GCIMS, and again no psilocyn was detected.

Samples were analyzed after the first sign of growth of mycelium knots. A total of 22 mycelium knot samples were analyzed by TLC. Samples were considered to be consistent with a standard if their relative Rr value and their color matched the standard also spotted on the plate. Samples were considered to indicate a standard if their relative Rr value matched the standard but the color was not as dark as the standard spotted. Of the 22 mycelium knot samples, 17 were consistent with psilocyn. Of these 17 samples, 8 were also consistent with psilocybin and I indicated there was psilocybin in the sample. Four samples were consistent with the psilocybin standard spotted on the TLC plate, and one of these samples also indicated there was psilocyn in the sample. There was no psychoactive drugs detected in one of the samples.

Samples were analyzed after the first pinheads of the fruiting bodies were observed. A total of 25 samples of the pinheads were analyzed by TLC. All 25 samples were with the psilocyn standard spotted on the TLC plate. Of these 25 samples, 3 were also consistent with the psilocybin standard spotted and 3 indicated there was psilocybin in the sample (Table I).

The 22 mycelium knot samples were also analyzed by GC/MS. In the inlet system of the gas chromatograph, thermal dephosphorylation of psilocybin occurs. As a result of this degredation of psilocybin to psilocyn, one is unable to differentiate the two by GC/MS. With this inability to differentiate psilocyn and psilocybin, it is unknown if the starting material contains psilocyn, psilocybin, or a mixture of both drugs. For this project, only a psilocyn standard was analyzed by GC/MS (Figs. 7-9). Samples were considered to be consistent with psilocyn if their retention time and mass spectral fragmentation pattern matched that of the psilocyn standard. Samples were considered to indicate psilocyn if their retention time was consistent with the psilocyn standard and contained the prominent ions, but were lacking ions in the total fragmentation pattern. Of these 22 mycelium knot samples, 12 were consistent with the psilocyn standard. Seven samples were found to indicate psilocyn, and there were three samples where psilocyn was not detected.

The 25 "pinhead" samples were also analyzed by GC/MS. Of these 25 samples, 19 were consistent with the retention time and mass spectral fragmentation pattern as psilocyn. Three samples were found to indicate psilocyn and psilocyn was not detected in 3 samples (Table 2).

Samples of the mature mushroom were also analyzed. Eleven samples were analyzed by TLC and by GC/MS. All eleven samples were consistent with the psilocyn standard spotted on the TLC plate. Of these 11 samples, 2 also indicated psilocybin in the sample. All 11 samples analyzed on the GC/MS were consistent with the psilocyn standard (Figs. 10-12).

There were some noticeable differences in the samples grown under indirect light versus the samples grown in the dark. All samples started to show mycelium growth at 4 days. The first signs of fruiting bodies were observed to be from 19 to 25 days in the samples that were grown under indirect light with the average being 21 days. The first signs of fruiting bodies were observed from 23 to 45 days for the samples that were grown in the dark, with the average being 26 days. The samples that were grown under indirect light had primordia which grew faster and larger. They were plump, yellow in color with brown tips. The samples that were grown in the dark had small white primordia that were skinny and long. The coloring was off-white with only a few having dark brown tips. The mushrooms that were grown under indirect light had thick stipes with yellowish to chestnut colored caps. The mushrooms that were grown in the dark had lighter stipes that were much skinnier than the mushrooms grown in the light. The caps of the mushrooms grown in the dark were also lighter in color than the mushrooms grown under indirect light. Psilocyn and/or psilocybin was detected in the mycelium knots, the pinheads and the mature mushrooms of all samples grown either in the dark or the light.


CONCLUSION
The psychoactive drugs psilocyn and psilocybin were not detected in the mycelium, the earliest stage of development of the mushroom. These drugs were identified in the mycelium knots, the earliest stages of the fruiting body of the mushroom.

Light affects the growth of the Psilocybe cyanescens mushroom. This affect is apparent in the time of development and the appearance of the mushroom. Light affected the color and size of both the fruiting bodies and the mature mushroom. Light did not affect the presence of psilocyn or psilocybin in the early stages of the primordia or the mature mushrooms, nor did it affect the ability to detect these psychotropic drugs. It appears that the Psilocybe cyanescens mushrooms are not photosynthetic, but are photosensitive.


ACKNOWLEDGMENTS
The author wishes to acknowledge Dr. David McLaughlin, Plant Biology Department, University of Minnesota for his time and assistance in identifying the mushroom, and his explanations about the classifIcations of fungi and the development of the mushroom. This project was supported by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Minneapolis Office which generously provided the supplies.


REFERENCES
I. Minnesota Statues Chapter 152.02. Schedules of conlrolled substances; Subdivision 2, Schedule 1. The following ilems are listed in Schedule I:(3) Any material, compound, mixture or preparation which contains any quantity of the following hallucinogenic substances, their salts, isomers and salts of isomers, unless specifically excepted, whenever the existence of such salts, isomers, and salts of isomers is possible within the specific chemical designation: 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine; 4-bromo-2,5-dimethoxyamphetamine; 2.5-dimethoxyamphetamine; 4-methoxyamphetamine; 5-methoxy-3, 4-methylenedioxyamphelamine; Bufotenine; Diethyltryptamine; Dimethyltryptamine: 3,4,5-trimethoxyamphetamine; 4-methyl-2.5-dimethoxyamphetamine; 4 Ibogaine; Lysergic acid diethylamide; Marijuana; Mescaline; N-ethyl-3-piperidyl benzilate; N-methyl-3-piperidyl benzilate; Psilocybin; Psilocyn; Tetrahydrocannabinols; 1-(1-(2-thienyl) cyclyohexyl) piperidine; N-ethyl-I-phenyl-cyclohexylamine; 1-(I-phenylcyclohexyl) pyrrolidine.

2. Kaul TN. Introduction to mushroom science. Enfield, New Hampshire: Science Publishers, Inc., 1997.

3. McKnight KH and McKnight VB. A field guide to mushrooms. Boston: Houghton Miffiin Company, 1987.

4. Rumack BH and Salzman E. Mushroom poisoning: diagnosis and treatment. West Palm Beach, Florida: CRC Press, Inc., 1978.

5. Ammirati JF, Traquair JA. and Horgen PA. Poisonous mushrooms of the Northern United Stales and Canada. Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press, 1985.

6. Guzman G. The genus Psilocybe. Nova Hedwigia: Beih, 1983;74:1-439.

7. Guzman G. Supplement to the monograph of the genus Psilocybe. In: Petrini O and Horak E, eds., Taxonomic monographs of Agaricales. Bibliotheca Mycologica 1995;159:91-141.

8. Singer R and Smith AH. Mycological investigations on teonanacatl, the Mexican hallucinogenic mushroom: Part II. A taxonomic monograph of Psilocybe, section Caerulescentes. Mycologia 1958;50:262-303.

9. Starnets P and Chilton JS. The mushroom cultivator. Olympia, Washington: Agarikon Press, 1983.

10. Psylocybe Fanaticus (PFtek), 1996.


PHOTO AND CHART DESCRIPTIONS (figures and table-charts)
There are 6 black and white photos and 8 table charts in the published article. They are not included in this file.
FIG. 1 - microscope photo of spores
FIG. 2 - mycelium invitro
FIG. 3 - birthed PF cake with fungal pins
FIG. 4 - PF jar with invitro primordia
FIG. 5 - PF race shrooms on cake
FIG. 6 - PF shrooms on cake
FIG. 7 - 12 - GC/MS readout charts
Table 1 - TLC chart
Table 2 - GC/MS chart


PF comments
There are several interesting points In the first article, ?Detecting Psychoactive Drugs in the Developmental Stages of Mushrooms?.

1. The article was the result of a full FBI investigation of PF in 1998. What saved PF was this; ?The original spore solutions were analyzed by TLC and by GC/MS. No psilocyn or psilocybin were detected in any of the spore solutions.? If these drugs would have been detected, PF would certainly be history and the new spore syringe phenom would be over..

2. The article gave PF credit for the source of the spores, ?The spores used in this experiment were obtained legally through an advertisement in High Times Magazine from Psylocybe Fanaticus (PFTek Seattle, WA)?. This is quite amazing because the FBI did not have to give any credit for this research, but they did. Most likely, it was because a lot of money was invested for the research and they achieved valid results. They even spelled Psylocybe Fanaticus correctly incorrect with a Y, and not an I. Also, the FBI performed the PF TEK exactly as written (credit given in the references section and footnotes) and because they followed the PF TEK, even they were able to get a first time success, making their research project and money spent, successful.

3. The paper identified the shroom grown (PF race) as a Psilocybe Cyanescens. Everyone knows that the PF race is Psilocybe Cubensis and not Psilocybe Cyanescens. Why then identify it as a wrong specie? The clue is here, ?The genus and species of Psilocybe mushrooms that were grown were identified as Psilocybe cyanescens. The pleurocystidia sizes noted in the keys describing the Psilocybe cyanescens mushroom varied slightly from the mushrooms grown. This may indicate a variant of this species (communication with Dr. David McLaughlin, Plant Biology Department, University of Minnesota) (2,4,5-8).? For the last few years, PF has taught the concept of ?spore race?. What the scientists did was to ignore what PF said about the identity of the shroom and went to the books and keys to do an objective ID, and what they obviously saw was that the PF race shroom looks more like a Psilocybe Cyanescens than a Psilocybe Cubensis. They refer to it as a ?variant of the species?. This is more vindication of PF?s new concept of spore race as opposed to the common designation - ?strain?, which falls short of describing these various races that do not mate, but stay unique and separate.

4. They found no drugs in the young mycelium. This is very surpising, because after ingestion of ?tea? made from boiling down mycelium engulfed grain, a slight ?psilocybian buzz? can be felt for a brief time. The answer is that the lab equipment could not detect an amount of psilocybin that the human psyche can!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chapter two

Potency comparisons of 4 species of "Dutch over the counter" Magic Mushrooms excerpt from THE FORENSIC SCIENCE INTERNATIONAL journal. 113 (2000) 389-395
HALLUCINOGENIC MUSHROOMS ON THE GERMAN MARKET - SIMPLE INSTRUCTIONS FOR EXAMINATION AND IDENTIFICATION

"The cultivation or possession of whole Psilocybe mushrooms and its spores are restricted by German law since 1998"

Psilocybin and psilocin measurements (%) for 18 specimens of Psilocybe Cubensis, 9 specimens of Ps. Semilanceata, 6 specimens of Paneaolous cyanescens and 4 specimens of Ps.Tampanensis.


Psilocybe Cubensis Psilocybe Semilanceata

psilocybin psilocin psilocybin psilocin
none .14 .01 .48
none .05 .16 .13
none .10 .25 .08
none .10 .27 .24
none .11 .30 .03
.01 .05 .42 .04
.02 .09 .51 .12
.17 .09 .72 .01
.31 .23 .91 .90
.50 .12
.87 .04
.98 .03
1.07 .01

Panaeolous Cyanescens Psilocybe Tampanensis

Psilocybin Psilocin Psilocybin Psilocin
.02 .56 none .02
.44 .14 .01 .03
.47 .22 .03 .03
.51 .64 .19 .01
.54 .09
1.15 .90


PF comments
Extreme variations in potency of a given collection of magic shrooms has been reported ever scince reports have been done about these shrooms. And similarly, this report also shows the extreme variability of psilocybin content amongst the dried samples. So if one wants potent and satisfying Cubensis magic shrooms, they should be grown for potency. And that is done by harvesting them in their young stage, before sporulation begins. When that is done, even the most different appearing spore races look about the same. When the caps aren?t fully expanded, all of the races look similar. The visual differences emerge when the shrooms mature, but then when they mature, they are only good for spore printing. These are weak in potency and unsatisfying for tripping. So the word of wisdom is, grow them PF style, harvest them when they are young and cool dry them with desiccant. When this is done, they are an entheogen of the highest nature.




--------------------
>>Jammer>>

Edited by Jammer (12/30/01 11:40 PM)

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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Jammer]
    #489495 - 12/13/01 02:27 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Why aren't cultures being sold then?
Why sell the document for ten, when you can sell the cultures for MORE?

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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: ]
    #489514 - 12/13/01 03:01 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Because unfortunately this is the only investigation so far that hasn?t found no psilocybin in the mycelium of psilocybin species. And we all know what there is in the mycelium.

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InvisibleMicronMagick
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Post deleted by users_request [Re: Jammer]
    #489523 - 12/13/01 03:45 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by administrator.

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OfflineJammer
Computers areMORE Addictive!

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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION *DELETED* [Re: MicronMagick]
    #489527 - 12/13/01 03:54 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by Jammer


--------------------
>>Jammer>>

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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: MicronMagick]
    #489573 - 12/13/01 06:25 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

NuShroom, I know you doubt each and every word on everything and from everyone, but at least I can give you some relief on the origin of that address that you doubt in.

I did a search in Google on "Minnesota Forensic Science Laboratory, 1246 University Ave. St. Paul, Minnesota."

and there indeed appears to be a Forensic Science Laboratory there:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Minnesota+Forensic+Science+Laboratory%2C+1246+University+Ave.+St.+Paul%2C+Minnesota.&btnG=Google-Suche&lr=


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Offlinehomebrew
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Jammer]
    #489611 - 12/13/01 08:03 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Although the journal from which this "originates" exists, they do not publicly publish articles or abstracts on the web (http://www.aafs.org/journal1.htm). I just find it odd that this is a year 2000 paper, yet they reference neither current nor relevant articles. FWIW I would hope that the FBI has a better research department otherwise how the hell would they ever solve a crime? From reading this "article", its either fake or that is one hell of a shitty rag to publish in.

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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: homebrew]
    #489617 - 12/13/01 08:15 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

I don't see how they could get the identity mixed up. cyan spores are much smaller than cubensis.
I found the chromotography part interesting because one of my elves has been doing chromotography and I am in the process of putting his results together for a post in the Adv. Cult forum.

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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: homebrew]
    #489631 - 12/13/01 08:48 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

>they do not publicly publish articles or abstracts on the web

Oh, they do, they do.

Follow this link, and you can read the abstract and if you have 25$ to spend, you can download the original article in pdf format.

http://www.astm.org/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/jforensicsci/PAGES/3309.htm?L+mystore+hhli9894

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Invisiblestrang

Registered: 04/23/01
Posts: 671
Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Anno]
    #489663 - 12/13/01 09:36 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

this is getting interesting.........

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OfflineJammer
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: MicronMagick]
    #489875 - 12/13/01 01:13 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

The one thing that I think you guys are overlooking is what the moderator of the PF site is claiming. As I understand it he claims that he got this report under The Freedom of Information Act directly from the American Goverment!! So do you guys figure that he just made this up what?


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InvisibleMicronMagick
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Post deleted by users_request [Re: Anno]
    #489895 - 12/13/01 01:50 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by administrator.

Edited by MicronMagick (12/13/01 01:51 PM)

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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Anno]
    #489902 - 12/13/01 02:07 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

I sure do get alot of bluing from cultures that have had a wedge removed from them, and bluing on the wedge of the transfered mycelium.
Maybe some don't have much content, but I would not take that risk!!!!!!!

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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Jammer]
    #489912 - 12/13/01 02:18 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Well this is certainly interesting and very true.
A while back my partner had an in depth discusstion with Stamets abuot this very same subject. Apparently Stamets knows somebody that formerly worked for the DEA agency and he claimed in all their tests psilocybe mycelium did NOT contain Psilocin or Psilocybin. I dont know if he was referring to this scientific study or not. But if a DEA agent is under the impression that mycelium does not contain the active drugs then obviously it does not. BUT..how many law enforcement agencies are aware of this? MOst of them are very ignorant to mycology and all they know is "mushrooms are illegal".

Stamets also said from the research he has read the mycelium will not produce psilocin until the primodoria not stage as well.

I still would not be sending out cultures or mycelium syringes though. How many times have we seen very agressive strains form knots on agar plates and fruit. You certainly would not want a cop finding your cultures and see one fruiting. That is all they need to charge you with cultivation.
Mycelium syringes tend to contaminate way to easily and die off if not used right away. Spore syringes are the safest and most effective method.

I really dont see why PF would make this up. Not even to further his "spore race" theory that obviously he just wont let go. The term "strain" is widely accepted and published throughout the professional mycology society.


Although there are some things rather quirky about it.
For example the spores being identified as ps. cyanescnes.
Give me a break, those 2 species look nothing a like and all the cultivation info out there in books on this species clearly says they need to be grown out on wood. They are a wood loving species and there are no books showing them to be cultivated indoors on rice cakes.
Even the books listed below (where they even spelled Stamets name wrong for TMC, or PF spelled it wrong on purpse) all list the ps. cyanescens as a wood loving species.

This really makes me wonder weather the MN forensic lab really knows what they are doing. None the less, the findings are good news for all mushroom growers involved.

The other part that cracks me up is PF's final comments where he claims:
"The visual differences emerge when the shrooms mature, but then when they mature, they are only good for spore printing. These are weak in potency and unsatisfying for tripping. So the word of wisdom is, grow them PF style, harvest them when they are young and cool dry them with desiccant. When this is done, they are an entheogen of the highest nature"

Well this may be true if your growing on a substrate low in tryptamines like the brown rice ala PF TEK. Although younger specimans will be more potent, simply using a substrate higher in tryptamines increases psilocybin/psilocin production, thus giving you more potent mushrooms.

As stated in this article and other publishings;

Since mushrooms lack chlorophyll, they depend upon their surrounding medium for their nutrients. The vegetative portion of the fungus accumulates a reserve of food from the immediate surroundings in order to develop fruiting bodies (2-3).


The mycelium absorbs water and nutrients from the substrate which is used in the production of the fruiting bodies.


Brown rice is very low in tyrptamines, thus your mushrooms will produce a much lower amount of psilocin/psilocybin. Use a subtrate higher in tryptamines and you'll have more potent mushrooms.

PF states: but then when they mature, they are only good for spore printing. These are weak in potency and unsatisfying for tripping.

That is complete BULLSHIT !!!!
I've been eating mature mushrooms for years and sharing them with many friends and we are all VERY satisfied !!!
A mere gram of a mature mushroom grown on a substrate higher in trypamines is plenty for a good trip.

But then again we've always grown them out on substrates higher in tryptamine then brown rice.
Granted, the PF TEK is an EXCELLENT tek for beginners. I even started out using it. But moving on to better methods and using a better substrate such as birdseeds, rye grain, wheat grain, hay, dung, compost all of these will increase your potency in mushrooms.
Of course when I refer to mature, I dont mean mushrooms that have completly upcurled and are starting to rot.

I'm getting way off track here. Perhaps I should start another thread in cultivation on this potency subject.

Another thing I find interesting is how law endorcement agencies refer to psilocin. They spell it with a Y instead of an I.
I looked in several mycology books and they all spell psilocin like that. I noticed under AZ laws its spelled with a Y also.
Why does the government spell it one way and mycologis spell it another?
Can anyone shed any light on this?





--------------------
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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #489923 - 12/13/01 02:29 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe the quantity is to low to register from individual samples they took. Maybe the quantity was too low for testing against their standard.

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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #489968 - 12/13/01 03:14 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Yes we all know that the word STRAIN has two completely different meanings, based entirely on the context in which the word is used, Kind of Like DICK.
My name is DICK. WOW, he has a large DICK!!!!
Dick's Dick is very LARGE!!!
La de do da day.
Strain - the descendents of a single isolation in pure culture; an isolate. Also a group of similar isolates; a race.

Clarified:
Race - Gulf coast
Strain- Georgia Gulf coast, Florida Gulf coast,Texas Gulf Coast, Alabama Gulf Coast, Hawks Gulf Coast,
Substrain- individual Dikaryon

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OfflineJammer
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #490018 - 12/13/01 03:50 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Ryche Hawk said:
"I still would not be sending out cultures or mycelium syringes though. How many times have we seen very agressive strains form knots on agar plates and fruit. You certainly would not want a cop finding your cultures and see one fruiting. That is all they need to charge you with cultivation."


Jammer's thoughts:
If this document is acepted as a legal fact, I fully expect to see cubie mycelium syringes being offered for sell publicly. Selling magic cultures, I believe, isnt likely due to the easy possibility of "knots" forming. But knots are not going to form in a mycleium syringe.

I can easily imagine a new vendor poping up that requires site visitors to read this report, and other legal disclaimers, before being allowed to enter or to place an order.

As far as mycelium syringes being legal, Shroom Wizard was selling them for awhile. I believe that he stoped selling them 'cuz they had a quality controll problem (they simply didnt do anything).

Just wait and see.... Somebody is going to do some serious research on this topic and retain a lawer just prior to "opening shop". (just a prediction) I bet.

BTW has any vendor ever got into legal trouble for selling mycelium?


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>>Jammer>>

Edited by Jammer (12/13/01 05:32 PM)

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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Jammer]
    #490271 - 12/13/01 07:23 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

The funny thing about all this is that some one probably paid good money for this report. I found this report around a year ago for FREE at a .gov site. Some people will buy ANYTHING!
Dioze1


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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: dioze1]
    #490335 - 12/13/01 08:36 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

I understand that many people were paying $25.00 to have it mailed to them.


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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Jammer]
    #490543 - 12/13/01 11:30 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

This article sounds like a true scientific write-up to me.


Joshua


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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Joshua]
    #490876 - 12/14/01 09:28 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

It does me to. But I really dont know how technical goverment reports are suposed to be. Others suggest that it's just too sloppy and basic. I wish that we had other studys that confirmed these finds, but we dont.


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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Jammer]
    #491031 - 12/14/01 12:24 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

I think I found a problem. Due to the heat needed to analize a sample with GC/MS, I think the active ingredients were broken down before they got a good reading.

GAS CHROMATOGRAPH/MASS SPECTROMETER
The Hewlett Packard gas chromatograph 5890 Series II interfaced with the Hewlett Packard 5970 series mass selective detector (MSD) and the Hewlett Packard GI800A gas chromatograph detector system (GCD) were used for the detection of the analytes. These two instruments are equivalent and samples were run on specific instruments depending upon their availability. An HP-1 12 m column (film thickness 0.33 um, column id 0.2 mm) was used for the gas chromatography (GC). "The parameters for the GCD were as follows: injection port 250?C and detector temperature 280?C. Method SCAN70-Low mass 35, high mass 425, initial temperature 70?C, ramp rate 25?C/min and final temperature (!!!!) 300?C hold for 3.0 minutes.(!!!!!)

The parameters for the MSD were as follows: injection port 265?C and detector temperature 280?C. Method SCN90-Low mass 35, high mass 400, initial temperature 90?C, ramp rate 25?C/min, and final temperature 300?C hold for 4.0 minutes. Sample volume was approximately 3 uL with the split ratio of 30:1.

Really when they had started the test the chemicals were being heated almost 3 times the boiling point of water! Even the lowest number they used was room temprature, 25?C. It said for the Gas Chromagraph the injection port was 250?C and that the dectector port was 280?C. By using the "gas" to see if there are any active chemicals I dont think that there were any chemicals left after they were through with it. I don't know alot about Gas Chromatography though.

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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: blahblahblah]
    #491072 - 12/14/01 01:24 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

ryche hawk is full of shit! paul stamets never discusses ANYTHING related to psychoactive mushrooms in the united states. NEVER not even to his co-workers at fp. he never would discuss cultures especially. ask anyone who knows him. not even his old busom buddies, noone. he has way too much to lose, including his dea license to grow them. get him t0 palenque, or europe, that might be different.


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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: azurescen]
    #491144 - 12/14/01 02:42 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

And the book "Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World" is nothing but a figment of my imagination... As well at the procedure Stamets outlines for making tea in said book. As well as the growth params in TMC...


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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: blahblahblah]
    #491184 - 12/14/01 03:35 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

>I think I found a problem. Due to the heat needed to analize a
>sample with GC/MS, I think the active ingredients were
>broken down before they got a good reading.

I thought about this also. I?m not sure though how far psilocybin and psilocin are degraded through heat alone(without oxygen present).

According to the merck index. the melting temperature of both substances is around 200?C, so I?d say that they don?t degrade yet at this temperature.
Is there a chemist there?

http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_chemistry.shtml

Edited by Anno (12/14/01 07:14 PM)

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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: blahblahblah]
    #491354 - 12/14/01 06:57 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Whoa! I think that you might be on to something here. Shit if they were heating up the sample that fucken much it's a wonder that the mycelum didnt just vaporise via spontanious combustion!!

It's pretty much considered a fact that heat destroys the drugs in mycelium. I have often read other people's statements debunking the notion of drying 'shrooms in an oven 'cuz the heat destroys the drugs. (same is true with drying buds) - This is why some experience 'shroomers prefer to nuke there 'shrooms on paper plates in the microwave.

I just cant believe that nobody else involved in this study had thought about this..... Does anyone get the feeling that perhaps the Goverment does NOT want to stop the magical trade? (maybe they rather have 'shroom heads than drunks in the country, but the political pressures keep it ileagle) ... just a thought.


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Edited by Jammer (12/14/01 09:08 PM)

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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Jammer]
    #491402 - 12/14/01 07:52 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

I found a very interesting article on quantitative tryptamine analysis today:

http://leda.lycaeum.org/Documents/The_Mushroom_Entheogen,_The_Measure_of_the_Mushroom_by_C.B._Gold.16311.shtml

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OfflineJammer
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Anno]
    #491434 - 12/14/01 08:25 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Thats a pretty informative article. But, damm I need to go back to school! (I never studied chemestry). Can you help me out here and explain if this link that you posted speaks in anyway of heating up the mycelum to such extremely high temps in order to test for drugs within it? I mean, I did scan the article, however I dont have the patience right now to dig thru every word.

Thanks!


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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Jammer]
    #491440 - 12/14/01 08:33 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

This article uses a different method to determine the active constituents in the mushrooms.
The tryptamines are extracted from the material with diluted acetic acid. When they are heated to 70?C for 30 minutes all of the psilocybin is converted to psilocin which is then measured using light absorbtion.

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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: azurescen]
    #491465 - 12/14/01 08:57 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Azurescen,
Who are you? That is a very uneducated post. I guess all that talk at Telluride was just the results of a drunken stuper.
Dioze1


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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Anno]
    #491600 - 12/14/01 11:29 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Nice Link ANNO!!!

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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: ]
    #492538 - 12/16/01 01:20 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

anno you are sooo smart dude!

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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: blahblahblah]
    #492720 - 12/16/01 09:05 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

I'm no scientist, but from what i understand, gas chromatography works by vaporizing the sample then analyzing the gasses left. Im sure a labratory funded by the government would know what to look for in the gasses.

Just my 2 cents
-zero

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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: absoluteZero]
    #493168 - 12/16/01 06:42 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

If they knew what to look for, then why didnt they find it? Every 'shroomer that I have discussed this with disputes these findings. Seriously, it almost apears as if they didnt WANT to find any drugs there..... which takes us back to my theory that perhaps they know that the fungus is a safe alternative to other "street" drugs, yet the political views of Americans lean towards keeping it ileagle.....

just a theory.


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>>Jammer>>

Edited by Jammer (12/16/01 09:53 PM)

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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: absoluteZero]
    #493325 - 12/16/01 09:48 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

One of my elves - Elph - has done quite a bit of work with chromotography on magic mushrooms. Check out his findings here: Chromotography

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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Jammer]
    #493790 - 12/17/01 01:16 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

There were two kinds of chromotography done, fyi. I guess the TLC (thin layer chromotography) yielded the same results? I don't know about everyone else but I just skimmed through the last part, this is what I found.

"The 22 mycelium knot samples were also analyzed by GC/MS. In the inlet system of the gas chromatograph, "thermal dephosphorylation of psilocybin occurs. As a result of this degredation of psilocybin to psilocyn, one is unable to differentiate the two by GC/MS. With this inability to differentiate psilocyn and psilocybin, it is unknown if the starting material contains psilocyn, psilocybin, or a mixture of both drugs. For this project, only a psilocyn standard was analyzed by GC/MS (Figs. 7-9). Samples were considered to be consistent with psilocyn if their retention time and mass spectral fragmentation pattern matched that of the psilocyn standard. Samples were considered to indicate psilocyn if their retention time was consistent with the psilocyn standard and contained the prominent ions, but were lacking ions in the total fragmentation pattern. Of these 22 mycelium knot samples, 12 were consistent with the psilocyn standard. Seven samples were found to indicate psilocyn, and there were three samples where psilocyn was not detected.

The 25 "pinhead" samples were also analyzed by GC/MS. Of these 25 samples, 19 were consistent with the retention time and mass spectral fragmentation pattern as psilocyn. Three samples were found to indicate psilocyn and psilocyn was not detected in 3 samples (Table 2).

Samples of the mature mushroom were also analyzed. Eleven samples were analyzed by TLC and by GC/MS. All eleven samples were consistent with the psilocyn standard spotted on the TLC plate. Of these 11 samples, 2 also indicated psilocybin in the sample. All 11 samples analyzed on the GC/MS were consistent with the psilocyn standard (Figs. 10-12).

So I guess the fuckers did know about the degration of psilocin/cybin when heated. That is what I was thinking that after the atoms of the chemicals had degraded that they would leave kind of a finger print that they had been there. Most of the samples which had chemicals found were by Thin Layer Chromatography. Which I believe doesn't use heat just a comparitive chart of colors the sample turns for different chemicals. So what does this mean? If it means that because the mycellium doesn't contain the chemicals then it isn't consider illegal then hu-rah.

I also think that this paper would prove quite usefull if you were to ever get busted growing but nothing had pinned yet. You could say something like I was doing an expirement on the speeds of colonization for the different mushrooms strains.
Someone besides PF should see about this. Mabey write to the place he allegedly got it from and find out if it is a bogus paper or not.
Hope this helps everyone.


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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: blahblahblah]
    #493980 - 12/17/01 05:07 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

There is no mention of SAMPLE SIZE!!! This study could not be reproduced as written!!!!! If they did not take a sufficient quantity of mycelium to test for the goodies, there will be none in their extracts. As the mycelium matures it has a higher concentration of goodies, and the sample size needed to get positives shrinks. HOW MUCH MYCELIUM was used in the extraction to create the test samples for the pre pin mycelium?

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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: ]
    #493991 - 12/17/01 05:12 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Nice link MAX!!!!

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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: ]
    #494962 - 12/18/01 03:19 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

So we now know that this test might of been conducted on an extremely small amount of mycelium AND extremely high tempatures that could destroy/effect the findings were used.

Man, I still say that they werent trying to find anything. I also still believe it might of been done for political reasons as well.


--------------------
>>Jammer>>

Edited by Jammer (12/18/01 03:24 PM)

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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Jammer]
    #495412 - 12/18/01 10:24 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Well I am newbie and don't suppose yall will consider much I say but.....
1)This is 100% bullshit
2)They screwed up their test......i mean think about it even the best growers from what I read are not very sterile and screw up the experiement.

But think about it guys its THE MAN.......this document has to serve some purpose for them

if anything I am completely wrong but... Is it possible for mycelium to not produce psilocin until it makes pinners then it generates it in larger quantities?

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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: ]
    #496066 - 12/19/01 03:27 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

smoke2k said: "Is it possible for mycelium to not produce psilocin until it makes pinners then it generates it in larger quantities?"

Jammer's responce: It's the popular conensius that NO it's not possible. This opinion can be traced back to the oldest cultivation books. There are some people that only cultivate/eat mycelium... such as the PDA tek. Now, I supose that it's POSSIBLE that the chemical structure of the drugs is just diferent enough in the form of mycelium to advoid dectection. Perhaps, just maybe.... the drugs in the fungus changes, or changes into what is detected as drugs with maturity (we can only hope!).... but based on the numerious other drug tests performed on mycelium it does not seem very likely.


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>>Jammer>>

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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Jammer]
    #496376 - 12/19/01 08:46 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

So I guess all those kids that take spent or fresh cakes and soak them in cranberry juice arent really tripping.


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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: LuciferX]
    #496386 - 12/19/01 08:51 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

No, I agree that you can trip off of mycelium. My point is that perhaps under "the scope" that the molecule is just diferent enough not to be "flaged" exactly the same as the one's found in the fruits.... yet obviolsy still gets you high.

I suggest this as a posibility only.


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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: azurescen]
    #496986 - 12/20/01 01:27 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Azurescen you obviously dont know as much about Stamets as you think you do. Stamets does discuss psilocybes with ppl at some mushroom conferences such as the Telluride conference and the one in Canada last spring.
What do you think the Telluride conference is all about? Its not just mushroom foreys, psilocybes are discussed in depth there. Stamets is very open with people on this subject at some conferences. There is nothing illegal about discussing them. He just stays away from that subject around his business which you cant blame him.


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InvisibleRyche HawkV
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Jammer]
    #497010 - 12/20/01 02:05 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Mycelium is very smart. Even smart enough to fool the FEDs sometimes :smile:

Dimitri, you said you read this report for free a year ago?
Where did you find it? Anybody know? Or I can just pay the $25 to d/l it from this site listed.


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OfflineJammer
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #497831 - 12/21/01 12:42 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)



I'm not so sure that anyone, or anything really fooled the FBI here. I think that most people believe that they were not trying to find any drugs in the mycelium.

As far as purchasing the report, I do believe that the PF moderator purchased it for $25.00 as well.... He did make a mention of where he got it from in the past on his site.

PeAcE


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Offlineelphinstone
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Jammer]
    #499526 - 12/23/01 06:10 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)


Does anyone know why the FBI used chloroform-methanol 9:1 as their solvent of choice?

Almost all TLC work with these compounds used butanol-acetic acid-water or
propanol-ammonia-water which moves the psilocybin spot off the origin line.

see:
http://www.sporelab.com/chromo/tlc_0.jpg

A spot stuck at the origin (Rf .00) is non-diagnostic for any specific compound,
as after enzymatic conversion unknown spots appear at Rf .00 .
Normally, compounds of interest are usually kept between Rf .20 and Rf .60 for
greatest diagnostic utility -- contaminants usually interfere with anything above Rf .80 .

see:
http://www.sporelab.com/chromo/tlc_3031.jpg

"... note, on plate # 30, that in the left lane, psilocybin seems to have been
enzymatically converted to psilocin and an unknown compound appeared at Rf .00
as a result of boiling the ethanolic (40% vodka) mixture. On plate # 31 we see that
by taking the remnants of a methanolic extract and extracting these with cold water,
psilocybin seems to convert to psilocin again, and four new spots appear..."

see:
http://www.sporelab.com/chromo/tlc_3.htm

(P.S. this is the first time I see the term Rr not Rf being used -- searched the net and nada.)


Elph

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

re:
FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVESTIGATION

THIN-LAYER CHROMATOGRAPHY
TLC was carried out on 5 X 10 cm silica gel plates (Analtech Newar, DE). Psilocyn
(Alltech State College, PA) and psilocybin (Alltech State College, PA) standards
were spotted on each plate along with the sample extracts. The plates were developed
to 6 cm at room temperature in a covered development tank with a 9: I
chloroform/methanol solution. A beaker containing 3 mL of ammonium hydroxide was placed
in the tank to assist in development. The plate was dried with low heat
and visualized with a paradimethylarninobenzaldehyde (p-DMAB) spray reagent.
(The p- DMAB reagent consisted of 2 9 of p-DMAB in 50 mL of ethanol and 50 mL
of hydrochloric acid.) The relative Rr value of psilocybin is 0.00 and the relative
Rr value of psilocyn is 0.85...

The lower limit of detection was determined by serial dilutions of the psilocyn standard
and spotting/developing it until the spot associated with the standard was not
seen. The lower limit of detection for the TLC method was determined to be approximately
0.03 mg/mL...

Samples were analyzed after the first sign of growth of mycelium knots. A total of 22
mycelium knot samples were analyzed by TLC. Samples were considered to be
consistent with a standard if their relative Rr value and their color matched the standard
also spotted on the plate. Samples were considered to indicate a standard
if their relative Rr value matched the standard but the color was not as dark as the standard
spotted...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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OfflineJammer
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: elphinstone]
    #501742 - 12/26/01 06:25 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

I think that your a little above the heads of most of us here. Can anyone answer his question?

In the mean time, here is an interesting pic that will hopefully make loading this thread worthwhile:




Ooooopsie!!!!!

haha!



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>>Jammer>>

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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: elphinstone]
    #501937 - 12/26/01 10:35 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Are you saying the 9:1 ratio versus the 8:2 ratio for chloroform-methanol was unable to free the goodies to move up the gel?
Or is this solvent just an all around bad choice for the goodies? Polarity problems?
Clue us in, most of us left organic chemistry back at school!!!!

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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: ]
    #501957 - 12/26/01 10:58 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

I am also curious where PF got the Pleurocystidia size from in this write - up!!!! They only mention spore size, and it is more consitent with cubensis, then cyanescens. They are to big to be cyanescens. They mention no, other characteristics, other then spore size!!!

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Offlineelphinstone
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: ]
    #502632 - 12/27/01 05:48 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

I am not sure what an 8:2 (= 4:1) chloroform-methanol ratio would do,
as very polar solvents like methanol contribute disproportionately to
overall solvent activity at very low concentrations.

According to the published FBI results (at 9:1) the Rf of psilocin was
.85 (which means it moved up the plate relatively quickly) and the Rf of
psilocybin was .00 (which means it was stuck at the origin line and did
not move at all).

I mentioned that a spot stuck at the origin (Rf .00) was non-diagnostic
for any specific compound, as after enzymatic conversion, unknown spots
appear at Rf .00, so a colour reaction there does not imply psilocybin --
especially with p-DMAB which reacts with many indoles in a similar way.

See the variety of unknown colours that Beug obtained in lane #4 of:
http://www.sporelab.com/chromo/tlc_0.jpg

Also, notice on the same image that most workers used acetic acid or ammonia
in their solvents, and that psilocybin always moved from the origin.

For best results, these two solvents would be used in two dimensions
(ammoniacal first), see the brown psilocybin spot on the left on plate # 59.

The only disadvantage of a water-containing solvent is the long development time.


According to: Analytical and Toxological Data -- pp. 526,

Psilocin is soluble in ethanol and dilute acetic acid.
Extracted by organic solvents from aqueous ammoniacal solutions.

Psilocybin is soluble in dilute acetic acid.
Extracted by methanol from dry material.

According to: Shulgin, Journal of Psychedelic Drugs -- V.12 Jan 1980 pp. 79,

Psilocin forms white crystals from methanol and is quite insoluble in water,
but dissolves in most organic solvents.

Psilocybin is soluble in dilute acids, poorly soluble in water and methanol,
and practically insoluble in other organic solvents.


Experiment, discover, enjoy.

Elph


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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: elphinstone]
    #502686 - 12/27/01 07:19 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

You're making my head hurt!

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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: elphinstone]
    #502802 - 12/27/01 09:50 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

80:20 = 8:2 chloroform:methanol
I was under the impression that using these together at different ratios, as the efluent in the TLC, can drastically effect the outcome.
Effect in the sense that it can prevent movement, or speed up the movement. Different concentrations, different results.

Are you stating there was never any Psilocybin in the samples due to the extraction solvents used, or the solvents used as the efluent in the T.L.C. effected the outcome?
Sorry for the questions!!! Just trying to get a partial understanding. We know it was a bogus outcome, I am trying to understand why!!!

Edited by Teonan (12/27/01 09:58 PM)

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OfflineJammer
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: ]
    #503322 - 12/28/01 01:27 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

You guys disqust me!

Damm I always knew that the day would come where I would regret never enrolling in that Wood Shop class back in high school. :)


Either you guys are totaly straight, or your totaly triped out.

haha

(seriously, I never could pass basic chemistry in H.S. so I am a little envious)


--------------------
>>Jammer>>

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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Jammer]
    #503462 - 12/28/01 05:23 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Makes your head hurt too, eh!

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Offlineelphinstone
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: ]
    #503672 - 12/28/01 10:07 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, using these together at different ratios, as the eluent in the TLC, can affect the outcome.

The solutes (psilocybin and psilocin) interact with a polar solvent monolayer (methanol portion
of the mobile phase in this case) hydrogen-bonded to the adsorbent (silica gel) and not directly
with the gel. (paraphrased from: TLC Techniques and Applications -- Fried & Sherma 1982 -- pp.9)

Therefore, "ALL solutes should be moderately soluble in the mobile phase." (Fried pp.78)

Psilocybin is poorly soluble in water and methanol, and practically insoluble in other organic
solvents. (Shulgin, Journal of Psychedelic Drugs -- V.12 Jan 1980 pp. 79)

Solvent strength (elution -- eo) (on alumina and silica) (Fried pp.80):

n-Pentane 0.00
Benzene 0.32
Chloroform 0.40 CHCl3
Methylene Chloride 0.42
i- or n-Propanol 0.82
Ethanol 0.88
Methanol 0.95 MeOH

90:10 = 10% MeOH (original FBI)
80:20 = 20% MeOH

Solvent strengths of methanol in benzene on alumina: (Fried Table 6.3 on pp.82)

at 4% methanol eo is 0.75 (quite polar at a low concentration)
at 8% 0.80
at 18% 0.85
at 44% 0.90
at 100% 0.95 (maximum)

For chloroform and silica gel the order will be the same but eo will be different.

Solvent strengths of methanol in methylene chloride on silica gel: (Fried Figure 6.1 on pp.83)
(numbers estimated from graph)

at 4% 0.52 (somewhat polar at low concentrations)
8% 0.57
10% 0.58
18% 0.63
20% 0.64
44% 0.68
100% 0.73 (maximum -- Touchstone and Dobbins 1978)


So, going from 10% to 20% (or 8% to 18% in Table 6.3) changes eo by 0.05 -- not drastic.
Again, going from 10% to 20% in Figure 6.1 changes eo by 0.06 -- not drastic.

This would probably make the Rf of psilocin higher than 0.85 and just might budge psilocybin from 0.00.

The solvent that moves the zones near the center of the plate has the correct strength. (Fried pp.80)
(Rf 0.85 and Rf 0.00 are not near the center)

Conclusion:
n-butanol-acetic acid-water 12:3:5, as used by most others, would have been a much better
choice to move the compounds nearer the centre -- otherwise, why bother with the TLC?

From FBI Doc:
"... Samples were allowed to soak in methanol overnight.
The methanol was decanted into a shell vial which was then condensed to near dryness.
The extracts were cleaned up with an acid solution for GC/MS analysis..."

It appears that wet, not dry, samples were used for the extraction.

Looking at the B.C. study, it appears that any time water is present in the extraction,
spots at Rf .00 appear and psilocybin disappears, see the left lanes in:

http://www.sporelab.com/chromo/tlc_3031.jpg,
http://www.sporelab.com/chromo/tlc_3234.jpg,
http://www.sporelab.com/chromo/tlc_37.jpg.

See notes in: http://www.sporelab.com/chromo/tlc_3.htm.

If the TLC solvent is unable to budge any psilocybin present from the origin, these spots at
the origin will mask its presence.

There would have been psilocybin and psilocin present in a methanolic extract of dry matter,
as shown in the right lanes of the plates above.

(For quantitative determinations, multiple methanolic extractions would have been performed
due to psilocybin's poor solubility in methanol).

Conclusion:
Material should have been dried before extraction.


Elph


Does anyone have any links to results published on the net of practical PAPER CHROMATOGRAPHY
of our little friends?

eg. Using water or vinegar or lemon juice as both extractants and solvents and paper-towel
sheets (or rolls if purifying large volumes) as adsorbents?
Using Kodak's Elon (metol) developer (1% in alcohol?) as indicator?
(Warning: inhalation hazard and blood disorders from continued exposure)


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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: elphinstone]
    #503802 - 12/29/01 12:48 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks!!!
Makes you really wonder what the fuck they were doing!!!
Why go to the trouble to make a bogus study? Besides getting paid by the Feds. Maybe these guys got a culture business going on the side. LOL Anyways, why would the FBI be interested, wouldn't this fall under DEA research?

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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: elphinstone]
    #504055 - 12/29/01 11:55 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Conclusion:
Material should have been dried before extraction.


Thats what I thought!

Seriously, elphinstone is one of my very top elves.....he used to work for Santa!

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OfflinePeyotl
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: ]
    #505465 - 12/30/01 11:26 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

it woud fall under the fbi bacause of the national state of the operation. if you sell elephant ivory that you labal as being poached after 1982 on say ebay, that means your selling it over state lines. then is when it becomes federal.

i doubt that the govt would not look for anything like this. the spore trade is a national thing with many players. if they couldve gotten something that would stand up in court they would have ran with it. major big dick points for unearthing something like this. i can assure you this isnt a thing of de facto legality. i also believe they have enough of a case to go ahead with it, but if they did and a jury sad that since the spores dont contain psilo they are legal that would create a crack that isnt to there liking.

i think the bait and switch about getting ppl to sell myco cultures because of this holds water. see the above reason for not taking this one to court and add in that they are prolly picking their battles and you see where im going. one things for sure: they knwo that for a few at least spore peddlng is a viable source of ncome worth layin down a couple grand to advertise in High Tines for. that leads to thousands of orders a month every month. it ould be smart to do something like this lay back and just copy the addys of ppl sending mail to pf or hwk. or see how many they get. this would give them a figure of how many ppl are willing to realy push he envelope on legality.

according to erowid, psilo breaks down at 178F.

if i were a spore peddler thers onl one thing id worry about: the IRS. the govt painted themselves in a corner about the mushrom not being ilegal just the substance. now they cant goto court without loooking like a bunch of pricks, so they might sic the IRS on top vendors. i cant imagine PF turning in a tax form sayin he works at PF sending mushroom spore syringes nationwide. maybe im wrong.

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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Peyotl]
    #505830 - 12/31/01 12:09 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Yes spores are legal, Vendors with licenses pay taxes.
Cultures would be illegal, if you got caught with enough Mycelium to register a positive. And yes I think, if you were stupid enough to believe this article, and started selling cultures. You would be running a Legitimate risk.

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OfflineJammer
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Peyotl]
    #506718 - 01/01/02 03:09 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

In a previous message Peyotl said:

"if i were a spore peddler thers onl one thing id worry about: the IRS. the govt painted themselves in a corner about the mushrom not being ilegal just the substance. now they cant goto court without loooking like a bunch of pricks, so they might sic the IRS on top vendors. i cant imagine PF turning in a tax form sayin he works at PF sending mushroom spore syringes nationwide. maybe im wrong."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Jammer:

That reminds me off how the Feds used to shut down bootleggers and moonshiners. Dureing Prohibition they never did catch ole Al Capone with any booze. But they finally did managed to shut down his violent crime network by convencing a jury that he never paid his income tax. After all the guy lived the life of luxary and could not account as to where his source of income came from. They have locked up some major drug dealers with the income tax laws as well. What I keep wondering is how the hell the goverment can possibly have a clue as to how much tax a spore vendor should pay when much of the business is encouraging customers to send them cash.




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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Jammer]
    #514703 - 01/08/02 06:35 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I just wanted to make a quick mention of something here.

I have noticed in a couple of threads recently where some newbies seem to be taking information from this report and acepting it as fact. I'm not to sure thats a good idea. If law enforcment finds mycelium of any amount, I'm willing to bet that charges are likely.

Does anyone know of anyone that has sucessfully argued out of cultavation charges based on the FBI's findings in this report? I'm afraid that some have jumped the gun a bit and are under the false asumption that the law is going to search/test the myceium's knots...


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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Jammer]
    #521734 - 01/15/02 09:49 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Somebody was kind enough to email me the document in question about this thread.
FBI DOC: Detecting Psychoactive Drugs in the Developmental Stages of Mushrooms
Its in PDF format so you'll need Adobe Acrobat Reader to view it.

I found a few interesting things in this study. The first is of course that psilocybe mycelium does NOT produce psilocin or psilocybin until the primodoria knot stage. Confirmed what Stamets says.

The 2nd is that mushrooms grown in indirect light throughout the entire stage started to fruit on average 21 days later, compared to mushrooms grown in the dark 26 days was the average. Also the mushrooms grown in the dark were skinnier and grew longer and had darker colored caps then the more fat lighter colored mushrooms grown in the indirect light.
That says keeping them in the dark during the vegetive cycle for better yeilds is really not so important after all.

3rd, the fact that at these very high temps they were doing the study at, the psilocybin did not survive the process but psilocyn did !!!

4th, these mushroooms were misidentified. In the report, the author gives Dr. David McLaughlin, Plant Biology Department, Univ. of Minnesota credit for his time and assiistance in identifying the mushrooms etc...
There are is a picture of cubensis fruiting from a rice cake... a very week one at that.... but obviously cubensis.

Of course PF did not post that info to back up his ego trip on this one. As well on PF's site he has Stamets name mispelled, obviously on purpose since he has always shown lack of respect for Stamets.... the report itself has Stamets name spelled correctly.

A rather interesting read. Does anybody know of any studies out there...perhaps on the net... which show how long psilocybin/psilocyn can be detected in mushrooms ?? I've always been real curious about that one.

Enjoy :)










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Edited by Ryche Hawk (01/15/02 09:50 PM)

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Offlineelphinstone
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #522972 - 01/16/02 10:42 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Thank you for the original PDF file.

In the paper:

"Analysis of indole alkaloids in Norwegian Psilocybe semilanceata using
High-Performance Liquid Chromatography and Mass Spectrometry."
A. L. Christiansen and K. E. Rasmussen, Journal of Chromatography, 244 (1982) 357-364.

wrote on page 363-364:

Analysis of herbarium specimens.

"Some dried, old P. semilanceata mushrooms have been investigated for their
content of psilocybin. The results are given in Table III.

The per cent of psilocybin decreased with increasing age of the mushroom. But even after 30 years
storage, detectable quantities of psilocybin were still found. Dried mushrooms up to nine years old
contained more than 0.5% psilocybin, which shows that the mushrooms can still be potent after long
storage. Various amounts of baeocystin were detected in all mushrooms analyzed, except for the very
old herbarium samples. The content of baeocystin seemed to decrease with increasing mushroom age."

Table III
Quantitative data for psilocybin in stored samples of P. semilanceata.

Years of | Psilocybin ----| Years of | Psilocybin ----|
storage -| content %w/w | storage -| content %w/w |

-- 04 -------- 1.42 ----------- 13 -------- 0.64 -----
-- 04 -------- 0.75 ----------- 14 -------- 0.54 -----
-- 05 -------- 0.63 ----------- 22 -------- 0.29 -----
-- 06 -------- 0.61 ----------- 26 -------- 0.12 -----
-- 06 -------- 0.55 ----------- 27 -------- 0.15 -----
-- 09 -------- 0.87 ----------- 29 -------- 0.38 -----
-- 13 -------- 0.41 ----------- 29 -------- 0.10 -----
-- 13 -------- 0.65 ----------- 30 -------- 0.05 -----




Elph


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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Jammer]
    #523206 - 01/17/02 05:32 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Jammer, you are right about this. It certainly is a gamble just possesing the mycelium. It's also the main reason I have decided against posting long running test of my spores colonizing. It just wouldn't be cool to have lots of jars of fluffy white mycelium in the same location where I'm running my spore business. Too big of a risk.

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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: elphinstone]
    #523635 - 01/17/02 03:59 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Well that is certainly interesting elphinstine....that study only shows psilocybin...what about psilosyn ??


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Offlineelphinstone
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #525084 - 01/18/02 10:07 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)


Here's more info regarding psilocybin and psilocin levels in stored material.

In the paper:

"Analysis of indole alkaloids in Norwegian Psilocybe semilanceata using
High-Performance Liquid Chromatography and Mass Spectrometry."
A. L. Christiansen and K. E. Rasmussen, Journal of Chromatography, 244 (1982) 357-364.

The authors did not mention finding any psilocin at all, even in fresh mushrooms.
They did use a psilocin standard in their UV absorption evaluations on page 361.
Psilocybe semilanceata seems to keep so well because it only contains
psilocybin and baeocystin -- both of which are phosphorylated.


In the paper:

"Production of Psilocybin in Psilocybe baeocystis Saprophytic Culture."
Albert Y. Leung, A. H. Smith and A. G. Paul, Journal of Pharmaceutical Sciences,
Vol 54, No. 11 (November 1965) 1576-1579.

The authors write on page 1579 regarding Psilocybe baeocystis:

"A recent re-examination of the two remaining carpophores of the specimen we had evaluated in
January of 1959 showed psilocin to be present, but psilocybin could not be detected. The possibility
that prolonged storage could account for these differences in psilocybin and psilocin content could
not be substantiated by evaluating a 28-year-old specimen of P. caerulipes.
Psilocybin and psilocin were found to occur in this specimen in quantities of the same order of
magnitude as were found in the specimen collected in 1959."


In the paper:

"A new species and a new variety of Psilocybe from North America."
P. E. Stamets, M. W. Beug and J. E. Bigwood, Mycotaxon,
Vol. XI, No. 2 (July-September 1980) 476-484.

The authors write on page 479 and 481:

"Further, when we analyzed two herbarium collections of Psilocybe cayanofibrillosa
from 1978, we found that they had lost most of their psilocybin and psilocin. We thus conclude
that collections should be analyzed promptly. However, activity can be retained for at least two
years by drying or freeze drying the collections, sealing them in plastic, and storing frozen."

"The high performance liquid chromatograms of Psilocybe liniformans var. americana
are quite similar to those of Psilocybe semilanceata (Secr. ex Fr.) Kumm.
Herbarium samples of these two species both appear to retain their activity, unlike most other
Psilocybe species analyzed to date."


In the book:

"Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World." Paul Stamets, ISBN 0-89815-839-7, (1996)

The author writes on page 51 and 52:

"After drying, seal them in an air-tight plastic bag and freeze them. This will preserve their
potency for the longest possible time. All species gradually lose their potency over time. Many
species will lose most of their original potency after a few years of storage.
P. semilanceata seems to degrade slowly, making it an excellent species
to store over long periods of time. This is largely due to its relatively high psilocybin and low
psilocin content. (Chart at top of p. 40 omitted.) Psilocin is unstable compared to psilocybin.
Recent studies have also shown that Psilocybe azurescens, a new species
from the Pacific Northwest, also degrades slowly, having approximately the same psilocybin and
psilocin content after six months of storage as when it was fresh. However, most psilocybin
mushrooms stored longer than a year usually show a significant loss of potency, especially in psilocin."

"Another factor affecting the potency of Psilocybes is the condition of the mushrooms at harvesting.
Older specimens, infested with parasites, will be less potent than younger specimens that were
harvested in pristine condition. Specimens that have dried in the sun, are water soaked, have been
frozen, or have become old vary in potency -- complicating determination of dosage.
However, many of us have found that, by mass, the juvenile mushrooms are usually much more potent
than the adults."


In the paper:

"Quantitative analysis of Psilocybin and Psilocin in Psilocybe baeocystis
(Singer and Smith) by High Performance Liquid Chromatography and by Thin Layer Chromatography."
Michael W. Beug and Jeremy Bigwood, Journal of Chromatography, 207 (1981) 379-385.

The authors write on page 381:

"For quantification of psilocybin and psilocin levels in wild mushrooms, we found that prompt
freeze-drying of the fresh-picked carpophores was important. Freeze-dried mushrooms retained their
psilocybin and psilocin levels for over 2 years without noticeable loss when stored in a freezer
at -60* C or at -5* C, whereas dried herbarium material often lost all activity after one year."


In the paper:

"Baeocystin in Psilocybe, Conocybe and Panaeolus."
D. B. Repke, D. T. Leslie and G. Guzman, Lloydia, 40 (1977) 566-578.

The authors write on page 576:

"This age factor is demonstrated by the results of the analyses of P. baeocystis
(LESLIE 2731) and P. cyanescens (LESLIE 2732). Baeocystin was originally
detected in both collections; however, after 66 weeks of storage at 22* C and 5-10% relative
humidity, this compound could not be detected in either collection. Psilocybin and psilocin
similarly disappeared in P. baeocystis (LESLIE 2731). The rate of
decomposition of baeocystin was irregular in these two species and in some collections of
P. baeocystis and P. cyanescens this compound was detected
even after a considerably longer storage time. Analysis of cultivated P. cubensis
(derived from LESLIE 1902) grown on horse dung shows that baeocystin, psilocybin and psilocin
could not be detected in dried material stored at 22* C for 52 wks. However, fragments of the
same carpophore stored under anhydrous conditions at -5* C for 52 wks and the freshly dried
material (14 days) both contained these compounds. Similar decreases in baeocystin content related
to storage were observed for collections of P. semilanceata, P. silvatica,
and P. stuntzii. By contrast, the amount of baeocystin (and psilocybin)
found in one collection of Panaeolus subbalteatus (LESLIE 2753) after 52 wks
storage was the same as that detected in freshly dried specimens from the same collection."


Elph


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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: elphinstone]
    #525320 - 01/19/02 03:55 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Great research Elph. Maybe I will raise the urinals in the elves can!

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InvisibleRyche HawkV
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: elphinstone]
    #525493 - 01/19/02 11:16 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

TY Elphanstine.....errr...max :)
I was reading in Stamets Psilos Mushrooms of the World, he also stated how they are unsure of how freezing...thawing ...refreezing would break down the molecule structure even more possilby degrading them faster.
Interesting studies.....but nothing on cubensis :(



--------------------
-Peace-

High Quality MUSHROOM SPORES and CULTURES  for microscopy at www.muShrooms.com



muShrooms.com is the new web site of
www.thehawkseye.com

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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #525498 - 01/19/02 11:20 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

The thanks go to Elph Ryche, I had nothing to do with it.

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OfflineJammer
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #527866 - 01/22/02 01:15 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Wow, how long has these latest replies been on this thread?

Ryche Hawk, thanks for the link to the Acrobat Reader oringinal text file of this doc. I'm very eager to read it as soon as I get Acrobat Reader installed here.

I'm very curious why the PF guy would modify or change anything in the doc he has out from what our goverment has released. I was under the impression that the doc that he has up was the entire unmodified doc! Damm, this simply isnt right for someone to put something out like this with all of the obmissions and changes that you have pointed out!!

Thanks again for the link, I cant wait to read this!


--------------------
>>Jammer>>

Edited by Jammer (01/22/02 02:49 AM)

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Invisibleoscill8
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Jammer]
    #527918 - 01/22/02 02:26 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

the (likely) purpose of the report is to stand as scientific evidence to be admitted in court regarding testimony as to the fact that psilocybin is present in the alleged mushroom species. someone could always argue the test/paper was invalid, if their lawyer doesnt stipulate to its evidentiary value and the person knew something of the science to tell their lawyer not to stipulate to its contents...

ithere are 382 cases on westlaw with the term "psilocybin" in them. most do not detail busts of cultivation, but of possession of psilocybin mushrooms (the judges often refer to mushrooms as "psilocybin"- ::grin:: but you have to give them a break, most were english majors, not knowing a whiff of science.) the one grow op case ive come across involved 4000 mason jars, 2000 styrafoam coolers, etc etc. they apparently tested the jars and some cultures and found psilocybin in them. the case was prior to the release of this report. (im still poking thru the cases, more for personal curiousity than anything). most cases about "psilocybin" arent even about mushrooms- theyre cases where someones been busted with mushrooms AND something else (mushrooms and weed, mushrooms and lsd, etc.) dealers who deal in more than one drug, is what im saying.

even if the report is true, (not saying it is), possession of spawn with other grow supplies would likely hold up an attempt charge, which generally carries the specific offense's penalty or one grade lower (so, if youre convicted of attempt, generally the punishment is the same for attempt as it is for cultivation, or is one grade lower than the actual offense- 2nd degree as opposed to 1st.) hopefully people realize its not just the mushroom that the police power are interested in.

maybe ill compile something on the legal references to psilocybin found in lexis and westlaw...


--------------------
? oscill8 2001, 2002
"Any data submitted to Shroomery.org becomes our property"

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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: oscill8]
    #528055 - 01/22/02 09:01 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I guess the judge calls it psilocybin because it isn't the mushrooms that are of interest to the law, just the chemical.

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OfflinePeyotl
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: ]
    #528192 - 01/22/02 11:43 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

it would be very diffcult for a court to ignore a FBI investigation. i think this would stop a syringe bust, but if they found some jars hat were growing id say your fucked. because of this report, you may be able to argue out of a growing charge but theyd have conspiracy roughly a foot up your ass. technically if theres no psilo in the myco at the time of the bust i fail to see hw it would be any different than morel myco. seems kinda risky, and i wouldnt want to hang my ass cherry on it but if its all you got then go with it. wiggle room is here, IMO.

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OfflineJammer
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: oscill8]
    #535495 - 01/30/02 12:35 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

You obviosly know a lot about law. (man, I'm glad that your on this site!!) Your reply was very informative. But, shesh... I have hardly EVER heard of a 'shroom growing bust. I mean, just how often does this happen? In fact, I have heard of many an ocansion where cops have found cubies in people's cars and didnt know what the fuck they were and let them drive off without even a ticket!

hehe


--------------------
>>Jammer>>

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OfflineGlacius
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: MicronMagick]
    #537449 - 02/01/02 12:52 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

It's amazing to think these people run our society and can't even properly identify a mushroom, or even spell it correctly
.HAhahaha. Bunch of fools....


--------------------
addicted to reason
a hollow understanding trapped me
I cannot see outside but its calling

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OfflineGlacius
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Glacius]
    #537464 - 02/01/02 01:15 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Azurescen, I would have to agree with ryche on that one. I doubt that he would lie about talking with stamet. A very uneducated statment indeed...

I don't know what to think on this subject. From my expereince, it seems the FBI don't know there shit from a hole in the ground. From all my research on the subject, myceclium does, in fact contain the active alkaloids(or whatever) that get you "high". Maybe, if this report can be confirmed in any way, it might hold up in court or something. I'f only we could confirm that this data accually did come from the FBI's research. Or maybe, it was just a scam to make money. It does look quite convincing though... ha, maybe everyone can start selling live cultures, instead of just anno, in Holland( or wherever he is located)where live cultures are legal.



--------------------
addicted to reason
a hollow understanding trapped me
I cannot see outside but its calling

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Offlineelphinstone
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Glacius]
    #538218 - 02/01/02 11:56 PM (22 years, 30 days ago)

The author of the FBI DOC paper has worked with mushrooms since 1998.
The results have been peer-reviewed.

See page: http://www.fiu.edu/~almirall/Students.htm

Former Students Section

FORENSIC EVALUATION OF AUTOMOTIVE LENSES

By Susan T. Gross, Master of Science in Forensic Science - 2001

Hit and run type accidents and other vehicle accidents often leave trace evidence behind...
...Quantitative data from all five instrumental techniques will be summarized and
evaluated by the method of Smalldon and Brown for the determination and assessment
of discrimination power.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I began in the Master's of Forensic Science program in the Fall of 1999.
I began my research in the Spring of 2000. My research will be presented
at the American Academy of Forensic Sciences at the 2001 Meeting in Seattle,
Washington , February 19 - 24.

Papers:

Gross, S. "Detecting Psychoactive Drugs in the Developmental Stages of Mushrooms".
J Forensic Sci 2000; 45(3):527-537.

Conferences:

Gross, S. "Detecting Psychoactive Drugs in Mushrooms" oral presentation at the
Midwestern Association of Forensic Scientists Meeting, October 1998.

Gross, S., Garcia, A.D., Almirall, J. R. "The Analysis of the Psilocybe Cyanescens
(Wakefield) Mushroom" oral presentation at the American Academy of Forensic Sciences
Meeting, February 1999.

Almirall, J. R., Gross, S., Garcia, A.D., A Comparison of GC-MS, LC-ECD, LC-MS,
and CE Methods for the Analysis of the Psilocybe Cyanescens (Wakefield) Mushroom
oral presentation at the Pittcon Meeting, March 1999.

Gross, S., Garcia, A.D., Almirall, J. R. "The Analysis of the Psilocybe Cyanescens
(Wakefield) Mushroom" poster presentation at the International American Academy of
Forensic Sciences Meeting, August 1999.

Awards:

New Scientist Award Recipient. Award presented by Midwestern Association of
Forensic Scientists, October 1999.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Elph

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Anonymous

Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: elphinstone]
    #538472 - 02/02/02 09:56 AM (22 years, 30 days ago)

Excellent research Elph!

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OfflineJammer
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: elphinstone]
    #541983 - 02/06/02 12:35 AM (22 years, 26 days ago)

No shit?

Very interesting indeed.

Awesome info! I was under the asumption that a team of Federal scientists did this reasearch... I must say, at this point I dont know any more about the legality of mycelium than I did when this thread started. (although, after re-reading this doc I now see that Susan T Gross is the sole author mentioned)

Thanks for the research!


--------------------
>>Jammer>>

Edited by Jammer (02/06/02 12:49 AM)

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Offlineathena
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Jammer]
    #1368847 - 03/12/03 09:26 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Hi,
I'm sorry but your 'theory' that the FBI purposely did not find anything to bust one with is way off.
Do you really think that these dicks give a crud about which kind of drugs anybody uses?
The whole 'war on drugs' is a money making scam! There's no real 'war'.
Nobody's really trying to 'win'. I mean think of the money that is generated!
Tax payers money goes out by the billions in supply contracts to companys who make everything and anything that is required by this so called 'war'. Guns, goons, vehicles, serveillance equipment, planes, helicoptors, flack jackets, uniforms, offices, computers, staff, etc, etc. Not even mentioning the money generated by the prison contracts! Puh-leaze, you don't really think any of these dicks really care what it is they are busting you for, or what the heck anybody get's high on, it's all the same to them.
Athena.

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OfflineKeen_Eyed
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Anonymous]
    #5241163 - 01/30/06 04:41 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

the web site is down


--------------------
U & I, Well Go Get Keen Eyed!

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Invisibleabrad84
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Keen_Eyed]
    #5241235 - 01/30/06 05:48 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Keen_Eyed said:
the web site is down




Probably cos this post is 3 years old.

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InvisiblePsychoslut
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVESTIGATION [Re: Jammer]
    #5241659 - 01/30/06 10:24 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Two different terrariums were used for this experiment. The first one consisted of a styrofoam cooler with a piece of plexiglas inside of it. The second terrarium consisted of a 2-1iter pop bottle with the middle portion cut out.


Hell yeah our federal agencies are teh maxxorz technologicly advanced in teh werld!


--------------------



[quote]KristiMidocean said:
Good now thats clear.WHO FUCKING CARES. If I am fat u all keep pointing it out like its suppose to be a secret.LIke u really have nothing better to do then make fat jokes. If o know its like I do I know yall can come up with NEW AND BETTER SHIT . This shit is old and boring . I left in the first place cause this shit got boring not because of the fat jokes . Fat jokes dont bother me but seriously its old[/quote]

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InvisibleRoadkillM
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: abrad84]
    #5242356 - 01/30/06 02:35 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

abrad84 said:

Probably cos this post is 3 years old.




12/12/01 08:38 PM

was the orginal posting date of this thread.

and it is an interesting thread to read.

:smile:


--------------------
Laterz, Road

Who the hell you callin crazy?
You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch!


Brainiac said:
PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.


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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Roadkill]
    #5798445 - 06/28/06 05:01 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'd bet anything that the paper is legit. Dr. David McLaughlin is real, I worked for him. He's a nice guy and is an actual mycologist at the U of M. He does work on basidomycetes from the rain forest. Specifically two species which look identical except that one grows upwards from leaves and the other grows downwards. Interesting stuff.

I'm guessing that Susan Gross was just looking for an easy project to do. Yea, the TLC is fucked. But the HPLC should still work fine with that injection temp IMO.

So it looks to me like mycelial cultures should be legal as long as they are young. So does anyone know about the legal status of mycelium in CA, GA, and/or ID? Seems to me that if the mycelium is legal that might be a way around the spore illegality problem.


-FF


--------------------
It drinks the alcohol and abstains from the weed or else it gets the hose again. -Chemy

The difference between the substances doesn't matter. This is a war on consciousness, on our right to the very essence of what we are. With no control over that, we have no need to speak of freedom or a free society. -fireseed

"If we are going to have a war on marijuana, the least we can do is pull the sick and the dying off the battlefield." -Neal Levine (MPP)

I find the whole "my drug should be legal but yours should be illegal" mindset disgusting and hypocritical. It's what George Bush and company do when they drink a cocktail and debate the best way to imprison marijuana users. -Diploid

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OfflineJack_Straw
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #5800790 - 06/28/06 08:53 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Ryche Hawk said:
Somebody was kind enough to email me the document in question about this thread.
<br><a href="http://www.thehawkseye.com/fbi_mycelium.pdf"> FBI DOC: Detecting Psychoactive Drugs  in the Developmental Stages of Mushrooms </a>
<br>Its in PDF format so you'll need Adobe Acrobat Reader to view it.
<br>

4 years later, it's gone.  would you (or anyone else) mind reposting it??
<br>I found a few interesting things in this study. The first is of course that psilocybe mycelium does NOT produce psilocin or psilocybin until the primodoria knot stage. Confirmed what Stamets says.
<br>
<br>The 2nd is that mushrooms grown in indirect light throughout the entire stage started to fruit on average 21 days later, compared to mushrooms grown in the dark 26 days was the average. Also the mushrooms grown in the dark were skinnier and grew longer and had darker colored caps then the more fat lighter colored mushrooms grown in the indirect light.
<br>That says keeping them in the dark during the vegetive cycle for better yeilds is really not so important after all.
<br>
<br>3rd, the fact that at these very high temps they were doing the study at, the psilocybin did not survive the process but psilocyn did !!!
<br>
<br>4th, these mushroooms were misidentified. In the report, the author gives Dr. David McLaughlin, Plant Biology Department, Univ. of Minnesota credit for his time and assiistance in identifying the mushrooms etc...
<br>There are is a picture of cubensis fruiting from a rice cake... a very week one at that.... but obviously cubensis.
<br>
<br>Of course PF did not post that info to back up his ego trip on this one. As well on PF's site he has Stamets name mispelled, obviously on purpose since he has always shown lack of respect for Stamets.... the report itself has Stamets name spelled correctly.
<br>
<br>A rather interesting read. Does anybody know of any studies out there...perhaps on the net... which show how long psilocybin/psilocyn can be detected in mushrooms ??  I've always been real curious about that one.
<br>
<br>Enjoy :smile:
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>



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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: Jack_Straw]
    #5802273 - 06/29/06 06:35 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

WTF?

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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: fastfred]
    #5803395 - 06/29/06 02:05 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The site does work.......look in my sig

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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: em_bre_O]
    #5814436 - 07/03/06 01:20 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Wow, old school.

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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: fastfred]
    #5815389 - 07/03/06 10:19 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Well this is quite an old post.

However, I want to note that I wrote to both Susan and to McLaughlin and to the editors of the journal of Forensic Sciences. I always write to the journals and/or newspapers which report erroneously items in the press regarding psilocybian mushrooms. Yes I wrote to them about this paper and the fact that PF only sold cubensis spore prints which the FBI claimed they purchased from PF. And then the report claimed they were P. cyanescens.

They took over two and a half years to arrest him. First they bought a spore print and waiting a year, then bought a syringe from PF with a book on how to grow them at the 2nds year ended and then waited almost another year to arrest him and bring him up on charges. The DA in the case apparenlty alluded that this man was a dangerous drug dealer, but still they allowed him to sell spores for almost 2 1/2 years after they first received numerous complaints from parents regarding their children who had purchased spore syringes.

The musrhooms, as noted were cubensis, buit in the report they said cyanescens.

I saw in t an above post where Susan had previously worked with P. cyanescens and I think maybe they grabbed the wrong spore syringes form their icebox. HEhehe. Pretty stupid if you ask me.

Neither Susan nor David responded to my mail. The journal had me send another letter to them (they did not respond) the Journal told me if they didn't respond to my letter which casted doubt on their work then they would print my letter in the journal. I have also not heard back from the journal.

I recall seeing the photos but cannot find my copy of them on my computer or my files. I ahve no idea what I did with them. I have close to 2000 articles on psilocybian mushroms in my files.

One other point of interest.

Since the spores are not illegal, a search warrant was probably obtained because of selling syringes and growing instructions with them, and the fact that the pigs most likely convinced the judge that he was observed mailing dyringes daily for over two years to customers. They had been watching PF on a daily basis and even followed his and his partners trips tot he post office and back home. So they did get a warrant issued for his arrest based sole on those facts.

However, once he was arrested, the charges were changed to manurfacture of psilocine/psilocybine becasue he had a terrarium of shrooms growing in his home. The final charges had nothing to do with the charges brought in the warrant. Those were obviously dropped.

So basically that implies that the original charge proabaly would not of been help up in a court.

Just my opinions.

And Anonymous, Stamets does talk of shrooms at conferences and to friends/

Have a shroomy day,

mj

Wow, an old thread

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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: mjshroomer]
    #5815426 - 07/03/06 10:37 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I'm surprised that he didn't respond to you. Maybe email would be a better way to contact him. Perhaps you didn't have his current address. People move around quite a bit at the U of M. As long as it is a scholarly inquiry you could give him a call. I know he at least used to answer his phone. I would be very surprised if he wouldn't answer your questions.


http://www.umn.edu/lookup?SET_INSTITUTIO...mpus=t&role=sta


-FF

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Re: FBI DOC: THE PSYLOCYBE FANATICUS INVISTIGATION [Re: mjshroomer]
    #5816178 - 07/03/06 02:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

MJ.....the way that stamets goes about that kind of talk is that he likes to be private about it not like u.Are u tryin' to say that u talk to him about it when ever u please? I would doubt that to be true. He is obviously open about past experiences. You are open about CURRENT Mushroom endeavours. Stamets enjoys privacy quite a bit and I think his conference and friend matters should be left private. Let someone go themselves and talk with him. At a his seminar he says right off of the bat Quote:"Please censor yourself when it comes to Psilocybe mushrooms" . People tried the subject and he would change the subject a nicely as possible.When I had a "specific" conversation with him it was after EVERYONE left.

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