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OfflineBlue Helix
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Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) * 13
    #4872154 - 10/30/05 08:50 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

What is all this about?
This grow log is of my first try at Ausi Pan Cyans. The techniques I used in this grow are identical to my successful Ecuadorian cubensis grow of a few months back.

How do they grow compared to cubensis?
Like cubensis Pan Cyans are not too difficult to grow. I would call them a tiny bit more challenging than cubensis but not very much.

They grow slightly faster than cubensis in liquid culture, taking only 2 or 3 days to achieve a very high mycelium density cloud if continuously stirred and inoculated with a few ml of starter liquid culture whereas cubensis takes about 3 or 4 days.

Once in in grain or manure, they are close to the same speed as cubensis but can't hold the substrate as hard or dig through as well because they lack rhizomorphic features. When trying to colonize lots of grain, you really need to either keep shaking the grain every four days or use sufficient liquid culture so you don't need to shake because the mycelium can slow down, lacking the tenacity of cubensis mycelium. The same probably applies to spawning manure (i.e. use lots of spawn).

In the fruiting department, they like a between 75 to the low 80s, which is a little warmer than cubensis requires. The pins won't tolerate 100% relative humidity very well like cubensis can. The fruiting bodies are very tiny compared to cubensis, but there are tons of them. The fruits are much easier to dry than cubensis because they are smaller, but still the yield isn't as great. I believe one could achieve about 30% the yield of a perfect cubensis yield under ideal conditions.

In the strength department they make up for some of the yield shortfall. They will knock your socks off so be careful with these! I write a lot more about strength below, and I recommend you read it if you intend to trip on these. Tripping hard on anything can be dangerous, even deadly if you are in the wrong place, so take it easy at first.

The Grow

Stage 1 ? The Liquid Culture
I started with a 4% by weight liquid culture solution. In my case I used 20 grams of sugars for the 500 ml of water. 10 grams of dextrose was added to 10 grams of light malt powder in a few coffee filters, which was then loaded in the coffee machine. I poured about 4 cups of water in the coffee machine, which steamed out about 2 of the cups and drained the other two through the sugars dissolving and filtering the liquid culture solution. The solution was covered with a metal disc lid with holes and cloth medical tape over the holes. Over that was placed a filter disc. I also dropped my Teflon magnetic stir bar in the quart jar and pressure-cooked the whole thing for 25 minutes. After it cooled, I inoculated with very few spores scraped off a spore print, and thus this liquid culture developed slowly given the minute amount of spores used. I have since seen Goliath Pan Cyans develop from 3ccs of liquid starter culture in only 48 hours, making them faster than cubensis. Below is the progression of the culture:


Left to right: (a) Liquid Culture (LC) Sugars; (b) Making LC Lid; (c) LC Lid Underside


Liquid Culture - Days 3, 5, and 7 (completion). Starting with a few mls of live culture rather than
few spores can shorten this stage to around only 48 hours rather than 7 days.


Stage 2 ? The Spawn Bags
On the 7th day, the liquid culture was ready for inoculation directly into the fruiting substrate. I use spawn bags to colonize the final fruit out substrate rather than spawn because it's easier and faster. Using a couple or few large spawn bags, one has plenty of room for enough substrate for either small or large bulk grows, so why bother with creating grain spawn? A single large spawn bag holds about one gallon of substrate. In PF terms that about 20 half pins jars of substrate all prepared via a single large liquid culture injection rather than 80 small half pint jar injections.

The fruit out substrate was:
  • 6.5 parts Agar's special mushroom compost (via dry weight)
  • 2 parts WBS (via dry weight)
  • 2 parts rye grass seed (via dry weight)
  • 3% Stevia leaf (percentage via volume)
  • 0.2% black mustard (percentage via volume)
All was mixed with water to the correct moisture content by feel and then loaded into large spawn bags. The WBS was loaded dry so as to absorb a little moisture during cooking, thus preparing the mix to absorb the liquid culture without getting too wet. I pressure cooked the bags for 4 hours. Once they cooled sufficiently to touch with gloves, I sealed them shut in a dirty bathroom without allowing air in the bag. I then hung the bags up from the top of the plastic in a closet using rubber-footed wood clamps to allow them to cool and draw air in via the filter patch. Once self-inflated and cool, they were removed from the clamps and injected through a tape reinforced area of the bag with 80 ml to 140 ml of liquid culture (I strongly recommend the 140 ml). I immediately sealed the hole with hot glue. Once the hot glue cooled, I kneaded the grains and manure through the plastic to mix in the inoculants and put the bags separated on a shelf to colonize. The bags were remixed one time on the fourth day, but mixing was not needed for the bag that had received the full 140 ml of liquid culture. All bags were well colonized by day 7. Below are pictures of the progression of the bag culture:


Fruiting Substrate Colonizing in Sterile Spawn Bag on Days 2 and 7 (completion)

Stage 3 ? Laying the trays, Casing, and Casing Incubation
After cutting open the bags, I crumbled up the substrate as required to lay the trays about 2? deep and as evenly as possible. 12-quart dishwash trays are super cheap at Walmart and great for cubensis, but I do NOT recommend 12-quart trays for Pan Cyans. They are far too tall and will encourage air stagnation around the pins. I recommend using a 2? to 4" tall tray of some sort. For example, plant starter trays sold at garden stores would probably work well.

I used the classic 50/50 Tek casing with 10% to 15% coco coir (by volume) added. I laid the casing about 1/3rd inch thick. I do not recommend the addition of coco coir for this mushroom because it will encourage excessive overlay I think which seemed to reduce yields in the Ausi strain. Some folks also don?t pH-balance Pan Cyan peat casings. I have no opinion about that as I haven?t tried it, but I wouldn't doubt it would work fine. One thing is for certain; do not use hydrated lime for pH-balancing with this mushroom or any other. You are very likely to spike the pH way too high, and while cubensis can take that abuse, this one won?t tolerate it. If you can?t get pulverized limestone or powder calcium carbonate of some source, just don?t use anything.

I put the laid trays in a closet for incubation. I covered the tray with plastic wrap and put a piece of 2" wide masking tape across the center length of the tray over the plastic. With a razor, I cut a slit the entire length of the tape and pulled it apart about 1/4th inch and covered with cloth medical tape. This is to allow some but not excessive gas exchange.

For cubensis with an inch casing, casing incubation is pretty much required, but Pan Cyans can rip through the casing in 24 hours because the casing is so thin. As a result, one can probably skip casing incubation all together with Pan Cyans, but it won't hurt anything. Below is a picture of the tray in the incubation closet. Notice the tray is raised off the shelf to help keep it from overheating. I raised the tray out of habit because with cubensis overheating can be a serious problem, but with Pan Cyans one probably doesn't need to worry about it as the substrate depth is only 2".


24-Hour Casing Incubation

Stage 4 ? Fruiting
I incubated the casing for 24 hours and we?re off to fruit. At this point, I was only 2 weeks from the spore injection to the liquid culture, and already I was putting the tray in the fruiting chamber! Now try to beat that! Like I said Pan Cyans are faster than cubensis. Pan Cyans can fruit in the same environment as cubensis with some minor tweaks.

First, you can mist up to the pin formation, but you really must stop watering once the pins start to form. These pins abort easily and misting them will abort them. Once the pins are well set, one should try to reduce the humidity in the chamber to 85% to 95%. Don?t allow it to stay up around 100% or else the pins won?t mature as they should. Cubensis doesn?t seem to mind near 100% humidity all the time--although you risk forming mold in your casing--but these don?t like it and you also strongly risk forming mold in the casing. Just crack the lid a little open if you don?t have any other way. Fresh air requirements are technically not more than cubensis but they tend to get super tall in high CO2 environments and less stocky. It all depends on what you want. Lastly, keep the chamber a little warmer than cubensis. I recommend 75F to 82F. Below is my fruiting chamber progression.


Day 3 in Fruiting Chamber


Day 8 in Fruiting Chamber


Day 9 in Fruiting Chamber


Day 10 in Fruiting Chamber


Day 11 in Fruiting Chamber and the Harvest Day!


About the Harvest
I pulled that harvest on day 25 since the first spore was injected in the live culture. If I had used a few ml of a live culture to inoculate the live culture, I could have probably pulled the first flush off in 3 weeks! Now that is fast!

Although the pictures show the best trays, the trays did pretty well overall for a first timer. I estimate I harvested about 40% of a perfect first flush potential due to green mold which limited the yield. In fact I lost all of the trays after the first flush to green mold. It was all my fault too because I left town during the time the trays were in the fruiting chamber (that's why days 4 to 7 have no pictures) and the humidity and misting was way too high. The green mold formed on the soggy bottoms of the trays and extended up into the casing. Just don't over mist your trays! The fruits dried to exactly 10% their wet weight.

One thing that delighted me was the variation of this mushroom within the flush. Unlike cubensis, Pan Cyans show tremendous variation within a flush if one uses a multi-spore culture like I did. Some of the fruits were super tall, over 6 inches tall, and others were short (2 inches tall). Some had large caps (size of a quarter) and most had tiny caps (size of a nickel). The only thing that was consistent is that all the fruits were very small compared to cubensis. Indeed a single large third-flush cubensis can yield as much mass as half an entire tray of these!

One thing that really was a treat was the fact that about 1% or 2% of the caps had a light brown spore color while the others were grey. Here are some pictures of that fantastic phenomenon:


WOW! Isn?t that beautiful?!?


So, that?s all fine and dandy, but how strong are they?
Growing these over regular cubensis provides the grower a way to expand his or her cultivation skills to a new mushroom, but what about potency? Well, I have some firsthand experience to tell you, but first, let me preface this by saying that I am a seasoned cubensis tripper. I had my share of bad trips over the years. I know what it?s like to see both heaven and hell on shrooms, and hell always seems to come more often on stronger doses. I typically take about 3 grams on a cubensis trip, and I grow them strong on manure.

With these I decided to follow the dosage calculator here and take 10 fresh grams (would dry to 1 gram but is as strong as 1.35 grams dried). I was shooting for a level 3 experience. What I got was closer to a level 5 with total destruction of my ego.

I went from starting to see geometric patterns on the ground to tripping so hard that I couldn?t even figure out how to put my Ipod's ear buds in my ears in less than 20 minutes! These shot off like a bomb in my brain way faster than anything I've taken, even cubensis tea doesn't hit that fast. I was so screwed up and it happened so fast that I had a massively terrible trip. I didn?t know what the hell was going on. I won't go into details here, but let's just say I was heavily delusional in a negative sense and had trouble staying on my feet and not fainting. I am not a religious person, but basically I turned into a crazed religious schizophrenic for about 7 hours straight. The ordeal wore out my sitter--thank God I had one--big time. I would equate those 10 wet grams to about 4 to 5 dried grams of extremely strong cubensis.

I do not recommend taking over 1 dried gram until you know what you are dealing with. If you take them wet, you?d better start with no more than about 7 wet grams your first try. Now, I am serious here: these are not light weight mushrooms like cubensis! Like I said, the batch I grew was at least 4 to 5 times as strong as any cubensis I have ever grown, and I?ve grow lots of types on all sorts of stuff. Just be careful with them!


Edited by Blue Helix (11/01/05 03:10 PM)


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Invisiblebackupwards
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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4872322 - 10/30/05 09:26 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

very nice indeed. congrats and a very good write-up. I am just getting started with pans myself.

:peace:


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4872378 - 10/30/05 09:35 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Whoot whoot :slomo: Yup, they are a TRIP. :grin:

Nice grow. :thumbup: :tongue:


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4872396 - 10/30/05 09:38 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

good job. good right up. great pics. And yes they are potent as hell.

try some different strains and you will see some serious variability at the macro and microscopic level.


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: EonTan]
    #4872417 - 10/30/05 09:41 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

EonTan, how common is it for them to show massively different spore colors like that? Do they ever show purple spores?


Edited by Blue Helix (10/30/05 09:41 PM)


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Invisiblemskip23
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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4872692 - 10/30/05 10:30 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

very nice...... big :thumbup:'s


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OfflineRejak
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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4872717 - 10/30/05 10:34 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Excellent work, Excellent results  :thumbup:


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Rejak]
    #4872747 - 10/30/05 10:42 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Wow! What exactly is stevia leaf?


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4872772 - 10/30/05 10:48 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Stevia is a type of sweet leaf that is non-caloric. Places like DragonWater sell it cheaply online in a tea leaf form (click on DragonWater). Agar had concluded that with cubensis, it's addition of like 5% in manure increased potency for cubes by about 30% in his estimation. I am not sure if that happened here or not but these Ausi Pan Cyans were WICKED strong. I have heard of Pan Cyans in Amsterdam that were like these, where a 3/4th a gram dried gives you a good level 3 trip but I didn't believe it until now. I am almost scared to try them again. I guess I'll try a half gram in a couple months after I've returned to baseline and see what happens. I just don't want to go crazy again. It sounds fun; it isn't.


Edited by Blue Helix (10/30/05 10:52 PM)


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Anno [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4872850 - 10/30/05 11:10 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)



Edited by richardcypher101 (10/30/05 11:16 PM)


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: ]
    #4872986 - 10/30/05 11:54 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

richardcypher101 keep in mind that what agar was using and those Stevia tea leaves are a little different. Agar was using the whole Stevia plant ground up including the leaves. The stevia tea is made of only the leaves and so have a higher sugar content than the whole plant ground. That means you need to add less. I'd just start with 3% per volume like I did, and I think you'll be fine. If you are adding it in a non-sterile way like as a supplement to manure to be spawned, you might want to use even less or it could contaminate. I would go for about 1.5% or so in that way. I tried 5% supplementation to manure at spawn time back when I used to spawn and started a huge fermenting mess. In 24 hours the mix was horrible smelling sort of like vomit.


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4873102 - 10/31/05 12:21 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I told you man, start off with 1/2 a gram, I werent kidding :wink:...them bitches are strongggggg...I had 1.5 dried, it felt a good twice as strong as 1 gram.... They look very similar though, very nice to see, I had no variation in spore color myself...they printed rather well for me though, better then I expected anyway.

They have also made me somewhat scared to try them, I told you, you cant imagine until you try them..intense....glad to see things went well :smile:


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Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
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Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4873144 - 10/31/05 12:28 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

scatmanrav, the guys over at Myctopia who grow Goliaths told me that I should try 2 grams dried. The dosage calculator says that 10 grams fresh of these (what I took) is about 1.35 grams dry. If that's true, then I would have died if I had taken 2 grams dried. I should have just listened to you. A half gram dried would have been about 3.5 wet grams or about a third what I actually took when I went insane. That would have been a good first dose.


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4873303 - 10/31/05 12:53 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Very nice grow bro!~

:thumbup: :thumbup:

I really like the 2 different gill colors...



I've never seen that happen before.


tc


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PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.



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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Roadkill]
    #4873512 - 10/31/05 01:54 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I loved that gill effect too, Roadkill. The spores were also the same color which I tried to show in the third picture. I was really just wanting to harvest them at the time, but I could not pass up some pictures of those gills and the spores on the caps. And they were growing side-by-side as happy as a big family. No competition zones separating them at all. I would have taken prints, but with the trich in the chamber, they would have been pretty dirty, so I didn't.


Edited by Blue Helix (10/31/05 01:56 AM)


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4873917 - 10/31/05 05:26 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I would have taken prints, but with the trich in the chamber, they would have been pretty dirty, so I didn't.




yeah thats sad!~


but...

your doing better with your LC inoculated bulk substrates than I am.

most of mine are contaminating.

:crazy:


tc


--------------------
Laterz, Road

Who the hell you callin crazy?
You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch!


Brainiac said:
PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.



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OfflineRamlaen
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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Roadkill]
    #4873956 - 10/31/05 06:48 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

A friend is starting up the same grow next week, anything he should watch out for?


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4874574 - 10/31/05 12:08 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Excellent post!!!
Excellent job!!!
I am in awe....very nice!!!!!

Ralphster44


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: ralphster44]
    #4874700 - 10/31/05 12:51 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Ramlaen, read my post at least twice, and what out that you don't overdose on them. These are not cubensis. Start out with a very low dosage. 1/2 to 1 gram dried or about 4 to 7 grams fresh would be ideal..


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4874730 - 10/31/05 12:57 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Oh, and one more thing, Ramlaen, unless you are really experienced with feeling the right water content, I would add about 30% to 50% by volume of vermiculite to the final fruiting mix or to the spawn. The addition of lots of vermiculite takes a lot of the requirement for feeling the precise water content out of the equation, helps prevent overwet conditions after the liquid culture is added, and probably gives better, bigger flushes anyway. I didn't add it the run above, but I probably should have.


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4874963 - 10/31/05 01:55 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I agree that addition of 30 to 50% chunky verm - to the substrate - is helpfull.


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4875362 - 10/31/05 03:50 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

about 1% or 2% of the caps had a light brown spore color




i've never seen that before..!~


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: GGreatOne234]
    #4875641 - 10/31/05 05:13 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

You still should have tried to print those of a different color, I bet its a rarer thing..I dont really know..but I could think of a few people who would like a print thats not purple, even if its contamed (because they do agar work). Oh well, cool to see anyway..


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4875820 - 10/31/05 05:54 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, even a dirty print is better than no print. I could have easily cleaned it up and sent you back a few sheets of clean brown prints. If you see it happen again, please take a print.


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Workman] * 1
    #4875957 - 10/31/05 06:26 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I have some good new: Workman is going to help isolate the brown-spored strain with some dried specimens! Well, I guess we'll see lots of them soon.


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4876008 - 10/31/05 06:41 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

That is definitely a flush to be proud of! :smile:

I wonder if the gill color was a phenotype from the multispore inoculation.  Was there only the one that you noticed?  Should have cloned that guy.

Great job, great writeup!!

---edit
I just looked at the pic up there again, there is a group of them, awesome!,  I bet a clone would have shown that trait.  Hopefully it wasn't 1 in a million.


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Edited by Olgualion (10/31/05 06:47 PM)


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4876011 - 10/31/05 06:42 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Blue Helix said:

I have some good new: Workman is going to help isolate the brown-spored strain with some dried specimens!  Well, I guess we'll see lots of them soon.




Very cool!~

hope this works out.

:smile:


tc


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Roadkill]
    #4876439 - 10/31/05 08:31 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

# 6.5 parts Agar's special mushroom compost (via dry weight)
# 2 parts WBS (via dry weight)
# 2 parts rye grass seed (via dry weight)
# 3% Stevia leaf (percentage via volume)
# 0.2% black mustard (percentage via volume)

I got everything but Agar's special sauce, Should i just bump up the WBS and rye grass to compensate or is there something better suited?


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Ramlaen]
    #4876846 - 10/31/05 10:00 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Not as good as my compost, but you can make do.

Find a few old cow pies. Dissolve them in water until soft & then agitate the hell out of it - to loosen the fibers up & out of the pies. Then pour that out over a screen & catch the fibers, hose them off while on the screen, then dry them out BONE DRY.

Mix those fibers & bone dry weathered h/poo together - so you have about a 50/50 mix. Then add about 30% verm.

Go from there.


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: agar]
    #4876886 - 10/31/05 10:07 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

so when does your compost become avail to the general public?


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Ramlaen]
    #4876938 - 10/31/05 10:18 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

agar is right about the vermiculite; you really should use it. Vermiculite makes finding the right moisture content much easier and increases the water retention of the substrate over manure alone. Tiny musrhooms like these really evaporate the water out of the substrate, and without vermiculite, you'll have trouble with those later flushes and getting the substrate rehydrated.

Ramlaen, as far as agar's compost, it's really wonderful, but I do not think it necessary for an equal or better success. Search back a little for scatmanrav's grow of Ausi's a few months ago. He wasn't using agar's magic compost, and his grow was great. I think well sifted, aged manure will work really well. If you are using a sterile spawn bag to inoculate the substrate, then the exact nitrogen content of the substrate is not all that important either so you can rinse it if you like or not.


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Using spawn bags full of sterile fruit out substrate versus regular spawning. [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4877101 - 10/31/05 10:48 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I have read a few people talk about failures with liquid cultures when trying to inoculate pasteurized bulk substrates, and some might have thought that is what I did in this grow. I did not. I do not recommend using a liquid culture to inoculate anything but sterile substrates; otherwise, you'll strongly risk contamination.

While PF is the best technique for very tiny micro-scale grows, what I did above is the best way I know for medium-to-small scale grows. The technique I have settled on isn't anything new yet often overlooked by the hobbyist because it requires an impulse sealer ($25 on Ebay) and spawn bags (35 cents a piece). Never the less it is the best way I know to grow on a medium scale, which I consider in the tens-of-pounds range. If you are looking for hundreds of pounds--and I hope you are growing edibles or live where psychoactives are legal--you should buy a bobcat fork lift for the huge 50-square-foot trays, hire a bunch of cheap labor to help you out, and spawn out manure beds using grain spawn prepared in the same spawn bags. While you are at it, you might want a barn to help with the compost piles. I know one can use spawn to grow tiny trays, but I really see very little advantage to using jars of grain to spawn out tiny trays unless you really are tight on money. I personally like my mushrooms fast and think that investment in some spawn bags and an impulse sealer are the best one can make in this hobby.

In the technique I use I prepare spawn bags full of the final fruit out substrate. Those bags are loaded into the pressure cooker with the flaps carefully folded down the sides and the last few inches flipped up for easy access later when I have to grab them to seal the bag. The bags should also be loaded separated in the center by lid bands or something like that to allow even steam penetration. All of my bags rest against the side walls of the pressure cooker--no they cannot melt unless you crank up your gas stove really high and the flames lick the sides of the pot. The bags are sterilized for four hours. Once cool enough to touch, I open the pressure cooker in a Oust-sprayed bathroom with silicone gloves and facial mask on and carefully pull up the flaps to seal the bags. I am extremely careful to not allow the flaps to fall apart or allow any air in the bag. Yeah, sometimes I slip up a little but I try my best to not allow any air in them. I then hang the bags up by the top of the plastic in the closet with rubber-footed wood clamps. This allows them to fully cool and self-inflate by their own weight. When done, you have bags that contain totally sterile substrate that is ready for inoculation via liquid culture and then fruit out in trays. I have yet to have a single bag contaminate using this technique!

The beauties of this technique are many: first, you skip the spawn run step that would otherwise take a week or two. Secondly, you can make your final fruit out substrate as rich as you want. In the case of psychedelics, that can mean making stronger mushrooms potentially. Third, you don't have to mess with the details of proper pasteurization which is highly prone to error in my experience. The technique is simply faster and less prone to error than developing grain spawn and spawning out manure.


Edited by Blue Helix (10/31/05 10:55 PM)


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Re: Using spawn bags full of sterile fruit out substrate versus regular spawning. [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4877359 - 10/31/05 11:26 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I've added a row of pictures for the liquid culture lid sugars and lid making.


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4877924 - 11/01/05 12:59 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I have never seen them that brown macro. Just under a scope. They are either black or brown. The ones that I have seen brown spored are much darker then that on the mushroom, just when they are put under the scope they are brown not black( but still opaque). How dark are the brown gilled prints compared with the darker gilled specimens? Got a scope to put them under?

I have never seen purple in any copelandia spore macro or micro view.

I never got a good flush from the auzzies I tried. Only did a single test, and got a few fruits to look at under the scope. They had vey long cystidia only second to the mexican strain, which ironically had the smallest fruits.

I got a few sporeless fruits, occasionally.

Yessups Wild Texas is in the works. Two variants from the wild. Both with large caps, but one with a thin stem, and the other a fat stem. The fat stem one is more vigorous in culture(vegetatively). Only testing a single vigouros isolate from each print, but each on four different substrate mixes. WBS, WBS:RGS, WBS:RGS:BLAKCOW:VERM, and WBS:RGS:BLAKCOW:VERM:SHREEDED STRAW.  The addition of blak cow definetly speeds up things vegetatively. But all were colonized in ten days from agar wedge inoculation. CASED on the 27th each in it's own individual contanier containing 1.5 cups of substrate, with less then a 1/4 inch of casing(miracle grow peat:perlite). Never had any problems with the miracle grow before, so WILMA induced impulse buy, shouldn't do me wrong.

I am also trying to recover the MR.G WILD(unknown), TAI-KS(ralph/MJ), and the Cambodian(sporeworks) from 3-5 year storage (print) at room temp. Those were my favorites too date. Pain in the arse when you got too many to keep up with. MUCHO RESPECT to the vendors and their suppliers for keeping these things going.

sorry for the rant. Great post again Blue Helix. :thumbup:


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4878237 - 11/01/05 02:28 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I have a scope coming in the mail, but I don't have one now. Judging from that third picture, I think the brown spore prints would be just as dark as the greys. Look at how many light brown spores are on those caps relative to the grey ones.


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4878484 - 11/01/05 05:44 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Great log. Shame about the green, you had lime in your casing right? I have seen you post warnings against hydrated lime before. On my last grow it worked well for me. I got some new casing material, peat based compost. I was on a bicycle and the peat moss was only sold in massive bags so I got it instead. I now think its ph may have been neutral from the start. I used less hydrated lime than normal but it didnt colonised it well. I took some of the casing off and spread it on another tray. The first tray is now pinning but has barely started to colonise the casing.

Anyway, you say you can probably get 30% the yeild that you would get with cubensis. If it is 4-5 times stronger and faster to colonise then you are getting more acutal actives with the same effort. Does anybody else find this? What is a typical BE for pan cyans? I know cubes are said to be ~200%


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: blackout]
    #4878518 - 11/01/05 06:22 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks for the info, After reading it through a few times i think I finally understand your grow :smile:  I'll be posting my log once i begin in the next week or so, still some more preplanning to do.  It looks as though I'll be buying an impulse sealer


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Ramlaen]
    #4878524 - 11/01/05 06:34 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Where are you buying your bags for the sealer, and how wide of a sealer do I need?


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4879063 - 11/01/05 12:25 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

blackout, the casing was properly pH-balanced. Green mold comes from overly wet conditions. All peat-moss-based casings have green mold spores in them or, even if sterilized, can easily contamiate if subject to the wrong environment. The grower's job is to prevent mold by keeping the humidity and watering levels in check. I didn't do that and that's why the green mold happened.


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Ramlaen]
    #4879099 - 11/01/05 12:34 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Ramlaen, you can get large spawn bags at The Spore Works for inexpensively. They well 100 for $30 and 50 for around $17. You want the ones with the filter patch but without the injection port. The injection port is way overpriced and the same effect can be had by using a duct tape covered by masking tape over a patch of the bag. The duct tape is for strength; the masking tape is to prevent the duct tape from melting to the cooker's insides. There are dozens of better spongy tapes that would work, but this is just what I used because I had it around. Once the bags cool and you've hung them to self-inflate, inject in the tape reinforcement, pull out the needle, and immediately squirt some hot glue over the tape keeping it level so the glue blob cools without running down the side of the bag. The final look of the hot-glue-sealed tape is like this:



You want and impulse sealer that seals at least 2mm or 3mm wide seals. The length of the seal for large spawn bags should be 12 inches--technically 8 inches might work but I wouldn't recommend it. Ebay has vendors selling those for about $25.


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Ramlaen]
    #4879172 - 11/01/05 12:50 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Congratulations on a excellent effort!


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4879492 - 11/01/05 02:17 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

what a magnificent write up.

I really enjoyed a lot of the subtle insights.

an old hand indeed!


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4879664 - 11/01/05 03:13 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

definitely a 5-star grow  :thumbup: :thumbup:


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: shirley knott]
    #4881034 - 11/01/05 09:08 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

One thing you guys might like to know about hot glue guns is that they are often available for $1 at dollar stores with glue. Don't pay a bunch for a hot glue gun. They shouldn't cost over $10 for sure.


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4949723 - 11/18/05 01:57 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:




i wonder why they didn't go blue when you cut into these for a cross-section shot. hmmmm, curious.


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4949876 - 11/18/05 03:02 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Shirley, you are the first person to mention it, but I immediately noted that the Pan Cyans I grew did not blue after I picked them. This was really unexpected for me too since I had read they usually blue so dark. To all who think strong bluing indicates potency, I can say these offered me first-hand proof that is not always the case. One gram of these trip me out close to 4 or 5 grams of cubensis, yet they did not blue at all upon picking nor did they bruise or darken much on drying. Again, this grow never ceases to amaze me.


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4949890 - 11/18/05 03:07 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

definately an awesome grow, you have inspired me to skip PF cakes entirely.  Well written and easy to follow.  I think that if one has a good attention to detail, following good sterile technique, and can understand directions well this can easily be attained.

Five shrooms to you Blue Helix!! :thumbup:


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: lid]
    #4949938 - 11/18/05 03:45 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Mine also did not blue:


Ive had cubensis not blue and be kick ass potency too..blue dont mean no thang :smirk:

Funny, I never noticed it before..I never really look for it I guess.


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4951098 - 11/18/05 12:13 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)




blue is a funny thing. i can't remember whether it's psilocin or psilocybin that is the bluing one, but i do know that semilanceatas (liberty caps) don't blue and are one potent mushroom. if anyone can remember the science and doesn't mind giving a quick tutorial here, i for one would be very grateful. i smoked a fattie and cannot be arsed to do a full search on it  :tongue:


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: lid]
    #4951190 - 11/18/05 12:40 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

lid said:
definately an awesome grow, you have inspired me to skip PF cakes entirely.  Well written and easy to follow.  I think that if one has a good attention to detail, following good sterile technique, and can understand directions well this can easily be attained.

Five shrooms to you Blue Helix!! :thumbup:





lid, most people have trouble because they cut corners.  The return with mushrooms isn't linear with respect to how closely one follows a technique.  What I mean is that if you follow a technique 80%, you don't get 80% of the yield.  You get closer to 25% of the yield.  Follow about 50% the advice, you are lucky to get anything.  For some points, like moisture content, it's even worse.  If you want a good yield, be obsessive the first few times until you get it down.  Don't smoke a bowl while you are doing stuff until you've done it a few times.  I think I've watched more people fail because they couldn't just put the bong down for a few hours than any other thing.  Once it comes naturally and you know what you are doing, smoke up if you want but not until then.


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4951248 - 11/18/05 12:59 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

you make a very good point blue helix, I think I should of added 'extremely thorough' in there as well. Furthermore,I think it would help people to practice getting the right moisture content with their substrate before going through with inoculation, especially when new to growing. Once again, awesome write up!


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4951602 - 11/18/05 02:53 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

LOL

you are so right...

ive tryed jars 3 times now...
each time been 2 stoned..... yesterday i onli had the 1 cone b4 i started.. but fuk i totaly forgout bout maken the needle by the end of it hahaah FUKN BONGS....

so yeah putting the bong away 4 a few hours doing this does help but dont pull it out half way thru cos u fink ur doing such a CLEAN NON MESS JOB becso it go's messy very quickly .............


FUKEN AWESOME GROW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


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Strength once again proven to be 5 to 6X cubensis [Re: Blue Helix]
    #5114762 - 12/28/05 12:18 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I wanted to update everyone about the strength of these. This Christmas I was able to have several other friends sample the Ausi's from this flush in capsule form. All people who have taken the pills claim they are about 5 to 6X as strong as any manure-grown cubensis I've given them. One friend I have routinely can handle 5g of cubensis, but nearly lost it with 1.1 gram of these. I am not sure why these are so strong, but no matter the reason, they are much stronger than what I'd read. For example, the dosage calculator on the Shroomery claims Pan Cyans are a mear 1.5X a strong as cubensis. The only thing I can imagine that might have caused the usual strength was the addition of the stevia leaf material, which reputedly increases strength in cubensis and which I have not used before. At any rate, I would approach mushrooms grown as in this log with extreme caution. Consider starting with no more than 0.5 grams.


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Re: Strength once again proven to be 5 to 6X cubensis [Re: Blue Helix]
    #5116937 - 12/28/05 11:19 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Thanx for the heads up Blue, I just innocced some jars with these. If it all works out, the last thing I want is a turbo trip - for myself or anyone else who isnt expecting it.


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Re: Strength once again proven to be 5 to 6X cubensis [Re: Blue Helix]
    #5117255 - 12/29/05 12:58 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Some folks have been known to powder 2 grams, the add that to an OZ of dry cubes............ :fart:


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OfflineWorkmanV
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Re: Strength once again proven to be 5 to 6X cubensis [Re: Blue Helix] * 1
    #5117466 - 12/29/05 02:36 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Good timing on your update. Work on a small test run of the brown spored mutation, isolated from gill fragments, was just photographed today. The brown spore trait appears to be a genetic mutation passed on through the spores. A complete lack of black or greyish tones in the fruit bodies was also noted, giving the mushrooms a toffee-like coloration (not real visible in this image).



Brown spored mutation of Panaeolus cyanescens - Australian


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Re: Strength once again proven to be 5 to 6X cubensis [Re: Workman]
    #5117620 - 12/29/05 03:39 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Nice stuff! If all of the fruitbodies are displaying the new trait consistently, is this grounds to call it a new species?


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Re: Strength once again proven to be 5 to 6X cubensis [Re: _OttO_]
    #5118113 - 12/29/05 09:24 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

COOL WORKMAN!!! That is so awesome! Thanks for the update!


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Re: Strength once again proven to be 5 to 6X cubensis [Re: agar]
    #5118129 - 12/29/05 09:32 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, agar, I would love to see someone try two grams of these. Unless they handle 10 grams of dried cubensis, I doubt they could handle 2 dried of these. Again, the stevia _might_ have contributed to them being stronger. I am not saying that some can't do 10 dried grams of cubes, but I am saying it's rare. I have never seen anyone do 10 dried grams of cubensis, but I don't know any hardcore shroomers like that either. Keep in mind that a lot of people just pass out after the trip reaches a certain intensity or lose the ability to remember what they did when they were tripping, fall out of buildings, shit and piss their pants, etc. Going so hard that you no longer have control of your body can be dangerous in a real sense.


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Re: Strength once again proven to be 5 to 6X cubensis [Re: Blue Helix]
    #5119599 - 12/29/05 06:39 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I was talking about adding two grams to an ounce of dry cubes.

Then, doing like 3.5 grams of the mix.


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Re: Strength once again proven to be 5 to 6X cubensis [Re: _OttO_]
    #5119950 - 12/29/05 08:21 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Nice stuff! If all of the fruitbodies are displaying the new trait consistently, is this grounds to call it a new species?




No.

And I didn't notice it at the time but one fruit in the picture has black spores. It is the short one in the lower right. Unfortunately, it is the only one that dropped a reasonable amount of spores. I will have to keep working on this strain until I can get decent prints.


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Re: Strength once again proven to be 5 to 6X cubensis [Re: Workman]
    #5120677 - 12/29/05 11:56 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Workman said:
Quote:

Nice stuff! If all of the fruitbodies are displaying the new trait consistently, is this grounds to call it a new species?




No.




Why not - isn't this the entire premise behind evolution?


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Re: Strength once again proven to be 5 to 6X cubensis [Re: Fospher]
    #5123921 - 12/30/05 08:38 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

There aren't enough differences between the mother culture and the new mutation to qualify it as a new species. An inability to produce black pigment isn't enough.


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Re: Strength once again proven to be 5 to 6X cubensis [Re: Workman]
    #5130818 - 01/02/06 12:44 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Very nice.

Honestly..this strain is just nuts..I've had the same thing happen alot..Over 3 ounces of these that I've grown have been taken, and it was to much for those who took them 80% of the time, and almost to much the other 20% of the time. So far me and my girlfriend are the only ones who have tried more then, or less then, the 1 gram I fit into two capsules..we took 1.5 each and that was definatly beyond to much for both of us. Couldnt even describe how much over to much. Everyone I have told to start with .5 grams, started with 1 gram, and has freaked a bit, or been close to it. Theres a big difference with these between .5 grams and .7 grams too, people forget theres things between 1/2 and 1 gram.


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Re: Strength once again proven to be 5 to 6X cubensis [Re: scatmanrav] * 1
    #5327535 - 02/22/06 12:23 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, I took about 10 fresh grams my first time (thats a few mouthfuls), and it was way too much for me. I flipped totally out like I said above.

I recently got some reports back from some friends of a friend who I gave them and they loved them. I don't know how much they took, but I had warned them to take only a 1/2 gram (so maybe they listened). I guess one guy was inspired so much he cut a new album even and felt the trip had inspired it! Wow! Again, this proves that each person is affected differently depending on so many factors. Probably my first trip on these, which was an overdose really, set the stage for me not liking them too much. For some odd reason they always cause me to feel jittery like I can't sit still, but even that effect could be related to associations with that first trip.


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Re: Strength once again proven to be 5 to 6X cubensis [Re: Workman]
    #5327549 - 02/22/06 12:31 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Excellent !!!!!
Do your stuff Workman:)
Fantastic.....

Ralphster44


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Re: Ausi Panaeolus Cyanescens - Liquid Culture to Fruits (w/ lots of pictures) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #5339843 - 02/26/06 02:11 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

off to the archives with this thread.

:smile:


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Mushroom Cultivation >> Mushroom Cultivation Archive >> Panaeolus

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