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OfflinePrajna
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CULT FORUM SPLIT
    #4865290 - 10/28/05 09:46 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Edit:

This is something I should have not made so public. It is a problem that perhaps could better have been dealt with in PM's or through other means.

The thread here is being hurt by this drama. I have deleted it because it is NOT the issue that should be being focused on.

The desire for making changes in mush cult IS.


--------------------

Edited by Prajna (10/30/05 10:42 AM)

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InvisibleRoadkillM
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Re: I'm pissed... [Re: Prajna]
    #4865434 - 10/28/05 10:22 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Your thread was locked because...

Quote:

I have already told everyone that the idea of an Intermediate forum was turned down 2 to 2 1/2 years ago...
by my fellow Mods and Admin at that time.

I was all for the split at that time.

I'm not at liberty to say what was said in the Mod forum on this matter.

If you would like to persue this issue further...
I suggest making a thread in the Website Announcement and Feedback forum and asking the Admins to reconsider this issue.

This thread is what I would consider political at this point...
and the Website Announcement and Feedback forum is the forum for such matters.

Basically your not going to get anywhere talking about it in here!~

so I am closing this thread.






I was telling you to post your desires here in this forum...
where they belong...rather than in the Mush Cult.

and don't start this Road's buddies crap!~
I saw several of my buddies that agreed with you in that thread.

the whole point of the matter was this...
if you want changes done on the Shroomery...this is the forum to start in.


tc


--------------------
Laterz, Road

Who the hell you callin crazy?
You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch!


Brainiac said:
PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.


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OfflinePrajna
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UNFAIR MODERATION *DELETED* [Re: Roadkill]
    #4865548 - 10/28/05 10:52 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by Prajna

Reason for deletion: Drama



--------------------

Edited by Prajna (10/29/05 12:02 AM)

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Invisibleagar
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Re: I'm pissed... [Re: Prajna]
    #4865614 - 10/28/05 11:15 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

A little revolt now & then is a HEALTHY THING.

As things grow, so do the needs of the community.

Otherwise, the tragedy of the COMMONS occurs.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4861357/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1

I don't think this thread (above)should have been locked, as it has to do with how the general cultivation forum is managed.

But, I'm not a moderator (having turned the position down).

The object is - THERE IS ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT & a need for it.

Who cares if the issue was discussed 2.5 years ago.
Thing change in 2.5 years, don't they. :confused:

As for anyone thinking CHANGE for the BETTER is BAD KARMA. :confused:
Well, they are entitled to their opinion. :wink:
But, a productive member threatening to leave this arena for that reason is IMHO......childlike.......in itself. :rolleyes:

Change doesn't come easy. But, it will. Otherwise the general cultivation forum will become such a mad house, it will no longer be a useful place to learn. Or, advice in - for that matter.


--------------------

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OfflinePrajna
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UNFAIR MODERATION.. [Re: agar]
    #4865934 - 10/29/05 01:14 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

My original intention wasn't to start a revolt...But AGAR is right...

A beginners forum NEEDS to be born.

The original thread was started by me solely for the purpose of a discussion. Specifically for those in the cult forum who have been expressing problems about the current system.

Keep in mind that I WAS NOT here 2+ years ago when this suggestion was brought up originally, so re-hashing it should not be held against me, I had NO clue that this was anything but my own idea at the time that I posted it.

Also in my defense, at the time, it WAS JUST a suggestion, among what I hoped would be many that would come out of the thread. I WAS NOT trying to be a rabble-rouser or start a wave of discontentment with it at all, just the opposite in fact.

But fine Road...if WE can't be heard in that forum than *I* will speak in this one, because I doubt that the general membership will follow the thread here. Perhaps for the very same reason that I am upset at you, a large portion of the general membership here are AFRAID to cross the mods!

Putting my post here is like putting it in the dragons lair, and some will just not speak out in this forum, for fear of reprisals from some who OBVIOUSLY bend their duties to suit their will.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------


I would like to refer to segments of another of Ythans posts that can also be found here also, entitled -

"Official Statement On New Forum Creation"


----------------------------------------------------------------------

In this post Ythan said -

Of course all these issues are, to some degree, inherent in running a bulletin board and we can't expect to avoid them entirely. We're not going to sit on a good forum idea just because it might create a little more work for us. The problem is that the vast majority of forum suggestions are redundant because people come at it the wrong way. Instead of asking yourself "What would be a cool new forum?", ask "Which existing forums are overcrowded and how could they be logically split?"


-----------------------------------------------------------------------


I think this applies here.

We are not talking about a request for a forum to be dedicated to Pet care, or Art history... This is the cultivation section of the message board. It is the BREAD AND BUTTER behind what the shroomery is ultimately about! Mushroom cultivation...

The current cult board is for EVERYONE, except those at the very upper echelon of the cultivation food chain, and it is NOT running smoothly.

I think that my post was getting at the heart of WHY it is not running smoothly. It IS time for a split...

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Ythan expressed in his post -


"We're not going to sit on a good forum idea just because it might create a little more work for us."

--------------------------------------------------------------------



I believe that this is a LARGE part of why the idea is being shot down NOW, before it can even be fully discussed.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

He also said in that post:


For instance, I like PHP programming. If we had a PHP forum I'd be posting in there every day. At the same time, we have the perfectly good, moderately trafficked Science and Technology forum which is absolutely appropriate for PHP discussion. If I want to get more specific, I can head to any one of the numerous PHP developer communities on the Internet. There is no reason to create an additional forum when an existing one would suffice, no matter how cool I think it would be.

On the other hand, if we saw a sudden influx of computer geeks for whatever reason and the Science and Technology forum took off, then we'd have a reason to reconsider.

------------------------------------------------------------------------


This too applies to general cult, only instead of "computer geeks" the influx has come in the form of BOTH intermediate level AND beginner level cultivators.

Which is great for the forum in general, and the sponsors in particular. BUT THE TWO GROUPS ARE NOT MIXING WELL...

The trend toward "newbie bashing" is getting out of hand, and the mods KNOW it, yet nothing is done. I must confess that I am guilty of this myself, although I am normally a very level headed individual.

It is a level of frustration among the intermediates that is causing this trend. Because there is just too much new influx for us to have the kind of quality conversations that we desire.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Ythan also said:


We won't create a forum because it's "cool", but we'd definitely create one to fill a void. When it becomes difficult to keep up with the Science and Technology forum because of the glut of PHP topics, then I'll get my forum. Likewise for you guys. Before suggesting a forum, consider: is it really necessary or is it just a "pet" topic of yours?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------


General cult is far from a "pet topic".

On any given day, at any given time, if you look at the amount of bodies in the rooms, general cult will have more people in it than ANY other forum.

I also believe that there is a void here, at least for us older "kindergardeners" as someone so affectionately called us recently.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

And finally...Ythan asks...



Would the new forum generate enough traffic to justify its existence?

----------------------------------------------------------------------


Considering that I posted a thread that was directed directly at the "intermediate crowd", and that in a short amount of time it received over 500 views and almost 80 responses, I would say that there is a demand...




So there it is, my argument for why I think that the idea of a splitting of the general cult is an idea whose time has come.

With this said...can someone PLEASE tell me WHY the desire to create an intermediate or beginners forum is such a bad idea NOW, not 2.5 years ago!


On a side note...I think AGAR is right, the bickering on this board will eventually tear it apart, push people away, or just generally degrade it into a state of utter bedlam...

Edited by Prajna (10/29/05 01:27 AM)

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InvisibleSimisu
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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION.. [Re: Prajna]
    #4866426 - 10/29/05 07:31 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

well... like you i've done a whole load of lurking and reading befor i started a grow or became a member
i had enough time and respect, been reading cannabis cultivation forums for years befor i got here and belive me it's the same problame where ever you clicky :smirk:

maybe there's a good reason for making a new forum but even so that might not solve the problame and might infact make the cultivation forums stagnant... you'll get the noob forum that'll look even worse then mushcult is right now, an advanced forum with some interesting posts but probably most post will be stuff that should/could go in grow log and pictures forum
and advanced mycology for the bigguns...

now this might make you a home indeed BUT it would make the noob expiriance a lot worse then it already is...
it's a shame that people are not willing to do the work needed to learn and simply wish that everything will be handed to them spesifically tailored to their needs on a golden platter
but i'm pretty sure there's NOTHING you can do about it (i hope i'm wrong)

personally when i came to the shroomery i didn't bother reading much of anyone alses questions in mushcult (becouse it was all covered in the faqs) and only posted about three or four questions my self
what helped me better was the grow logs forum which made all the words come to life

having only growen mushrooms once (and not even that) i never felt free to give advice but maybe one day when i am finelly able to grow i'll give you a hand with the noobs

also i'd like to ask...
if you were an admin and you just split the forums what would be your guidlines for each of the new forums?


--------------------
:mushdance::sanpedro::peyote::mushroom2: :heart: Shr:supershroom::supershroom:mery :heart: :mushroom2::peyote::sanpedro::mushdance:
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InvisibleHolydiver
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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: Prajna]
    #4866767 - 10/29/05 11:14 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I don't agree with it being locked, as it was a positive discussion for the well being and future of the cultivation forum(s). As it stands, we are losing valuable people because everyone is fed up with the bullshit, off-topic posts, and lazy newbs who refuse to commit any actual energy to the hobby. As Agar stated--a little revolution is healthy. Isn't that what founded this country? The majority are demanding a change, and it's time to look at our options, which may include a split in the forum. That mentality of "this is how it's been, and always will be" is just ridiculous. I'm with Prajna 100%.

FYI, this isn't the way it has always been. Once upon a time, people actually read the grow teks and FAQ, and most invested a tremendous amount of time into learning this hobby, inside and out. This is not the case today, obviously.

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OfflineHippieChick
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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: Holydiver]
    #4867002 - 10/29/05 12:36 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not against change. Just against the way peeps have been treating each other.

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony.
:heart: Hippie Chick  :mushroom2:


--------------------
Peace,Love and Happiness
:heart: HC :mushroom2:

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose..............

I LUV My Greenhouse
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848

My First Pans
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058

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Offlinelid
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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: Holydiver]
    #4867006 - 10/29/05 12:37 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I agree totally with splitting the forums into basic and intermediate. I also was not happy about the thread being locked, it was imperative for it to remain in the cult forums, as it related to them and had given it the most exposure. But it is not under my influence, so I don't see the use in getting upset about it anymore. Whats done is done, and we have to concentrate on what happens from this point on.

The whole comparison of the cult forums to kindergarten, is getting a little out of hand. While there is some grain of truth to it. Even a kindergarten teacher is going to get pissed when the finger paint is out on the table in front of the students, and they repeatedly ask her where it is over, and over, and over, and over again


--------------------
molon labe.

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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: lid]
    #4867013 - 10/29/05 12:39 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I CALL FOR A CIRCLE JERK!


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.

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Invisiblemetasin
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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: Prajna]
    #4867397 - 10/29/05 02:51 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

This is why I don't post in the MC forum any longer. A beginner section would be a great idea.

And

If this wasn't posted in WA&F I wouldn't have seen this.

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Invisiblesrgtm1a
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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: Prajna]
    #4867398 - 10/29/05 02:51 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

That thread did have some pretty good suggestions in it for change and I agree with what Agar and yourself, and other users posted in it 100%.

But to say that Roadkill locked it just because of hippiechick's comment, is a little extreme. He is not the kind of person to play favorites, not in my experience with him anyway.

I don't agree with hippiechick's comment or threat to leave the boards, but I also do not think that is the reason the thread was locked.

Road was right when he said that this is the forum that post belongs in...this is where the admins read stuff like that. I don't think the thread should have been locked, but rather moved to WA&F for other mods and admins to read.

That thread had many good suggestions in it. I think a lot of people involved in the cult forums need to read it, as well as other admins, but accusing a mod of playing favorites is really taking away from the initial threads purpose.

I'm sure if you ask him he'd probably move it here for you.

Mods do make mistakes sometimes, it happens, but I don't think it was in any attempt to silence you.

I agree there is change needed, and a possible split in the cult forum, and it was a great thread, just in the wrong place that's all.

I personally have noticed A LOT of the seasoned cultivators have not been posting as much or even at all after this wave of new cultivators. Just by seeing this, I know that there are problems that need to be fixed in the cult forums.

Otherwise, you will have new cultivators giving advice to new cultivators and that is how misinformation begins.

I still try to post and help as much as I can, but with other seasoned cultivators not posting, a lot of questions go unanswered, or answered incorrectly.

Changes are needed in the cult forums, so let's concentrate on that, instead of reasons a thread was locked.

Edited by srgtm1a (10/29/05 03:29 PM)

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OfflineKaptKid
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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: srgtm1a]
    #4867498 - 10/29/05 03:36 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

This site is going to grow and continue to grow

The site itself must grow so we don't lose any of you good people or your idea's.

I think that everyone has had great input. Hopefuly the people that run this place will listen.

PEACE
:sun:


--------------------
Child of the 60's, Tripping ever since.


:sun:

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InvisibleSimisu
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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: srgtm1a]
    #4867529 - 10/29/05 04:04 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

srgtm1a said:
I know that there are problems that need to be fixed in the cult forums.

Otherwise, you will have new cultivators giving advice to new cultivators and that is how misinformation begins.




what do you think will happen if they split the forums?
the mods can't correct answers all the time or give them... a comuunity such as this one has to have a bunch of people to help along and i assume once a split accours most of you guys will avoide the noob playground (and those who actualy have a question with merit might as well post it in the intermidiate forum right?)
it might solve YOUR problame but it's still just ignoring THE problame...

i'm not against a split though... i'm just making an argumant i think should be considered and discussed
i'm also no a regular poster on the cultivation forums but belive me i've seen enough of those to know EXECTLY what you're talking about and, i've been in the same position to give good advice and refute bad advice as well

maybe the cultivation forums should not be available for posting untill a user has a month old account (but of course viewable)?
what i like about the shroomery was the amount of respect it's members hold to the mushroom... where ever i read people stated over and over how important it is to take this thing siriusly and respct and then respect some more... well... that way they'll have a good month to creat some respect to the issue befor jumping in the BS boat and asking for answers as if they're the only ones in the universe that still don't know what's what and HAVE to catch up NOW!

or maybe we should have a couple or more mods and strict regulation to the cult forum with some added rules?

or maybe split the forums in a diffrent way...
one for setup and equipment questions (also for ideal conditions in each step of growing)?
and one for substrate, spores and culture making (and also to discusse ideal conditions of fruting)?

or something of that sort...


--------------------
:mushdance::sanpedro::peyote::mushroom2: :heart: Shr:supershroom::supershroom:mery :heart: :mushroom2::peyote::sanpedro::mushdance:
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OfflinePrajna
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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #4867575 - 10/29/05 04:22 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I have compiled a list of the suggestions that were made on the original thread. I am posting them here to achieve two goals.

Number one is for the mods and the admin guys to see these suggestions and get feedback from the forum membership. So that they may decide to mull them over for future use, and perhaps make some changes, as was the point of the thread.

Two is to show that this WAS a productive thread and that although there are problems, there are also solutions to be had.

If any of my fellow members object to their names, suggestions or comments being posted here, or think I have taken any liberties with what they had said, then please let me know and I will change and/or delete them to your liking immediately.


Prajna

- A three tiered system developed with a Basic, Intermediate and Advanced Level
- A pop up page that a new member would have to ?skip button? through to continue on to post. Limited to a short period after which they are not burdened by it.
- Create a 100% optional test for new members and reward them with a special insignia or something that they can show off to other members to prove that they have mastered the FAQ
- More dialog about the issue in general



Agar

- Establishment of a beginners forum
- Establish a general guideline for types of questions that each forum would cover topically,
- ie)?PF for beginners, bulk substrates for interm...etc?
- More dialogue about the issue in general


Holydiver

- Possible new FAQ - based on the 10 most frequently asked questions asked by beginners and no split.
- Is generally against a split as it would be a logistical problem, but not against the concept of talking about it if it were something that the membership really clamoured for?



Hippiechick

- Ignore repeated posting, and ?stupid? questions, as we have all been there
- More mature members should be more patient
- No one should have the right to bash on anyone for lack of knowledge?a good reminder to those of us who were getting a bit carried away with this?



KisgardfromSRQ

- Create a new search function for non members, as the old one does not produce results as well as the member function.

?Also? having a circle jerk? but I don?t know that that is needed JUST yet?lol



Jarroddupont

- Create a quiz limiting access to the boards, based on the FAQ, so that the extreme basics are established for new members before they are allowed to even post.



Wormhole surfer

- A Bit torrent file covering FAQ with video, for those who cannot read and write well, have disabilities, and generally to attract younger members as that medium tends to do?



McDoopy

- Create a volunteer force of members from the board to create the video FAQ



X24

- Create a system in which new members need to gain the privilege to post in more advanced forums



CaptainKirk

- The info is easy to search for as it is, it is a matter of the newer members just not doing it.



ScatmanRav

- In his own words he is ?ALL about a test?
- Strongly feels that some changes should be made, as the current system is keeping him away from the board at times?



Srgtm1a

- Three tiered forum beginner, intermediate, advanced. His topic suggestions:

- Beginner -cakes, kits, silly questions, etc
- Mid - LC, casings, bulk, cloning, etc
- Adv - same as it is now

- Direct links that point newer members to the forum that is most appropriate for their questions.
- Create a new sticky that has links to basic things?his suggestions -

- Direct Link to glossary
- Direct Link to pf tek
- Direct Link to Dunk tek
- Direct Link to verm casing
- Direct Link to 60/40 casing
- Direct Link to 50/50



Cloudcity

- Have more patience for these problems
- Create an update to the existing FAQ, something along the lines of ?FAQ 2005? and sticky it
- Additions to the FAQ to include things such as

- Board etiquette
- Patience in growing, and on the boards, and of it?s importance to the hobby in general
- Respect for other members of the forum

- Other members simply ignoring questions blatantly covered in the FAQ, or alternatively simply posting things like ?do a search?, in response to such questions?with the intention of forcing these members to seek the information themselves.
- Is generally against changing the FAQ, useless as a suggestion in his opinion


--------------------

Edited by Prajna (10/29/05 05:52 PM)

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OfflineMcdoopy
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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: Holydiver]
    #4867637 - 10/29/05 04:52 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Holydiver said:
I don't agree with it being locked, as it was a positive discussion for  the well being and future of the cultivation forum(s).  As it stands, we are losing valuable people because everyone is fed up with the bullshit, off-topic posts, and lazy newbs who refuse to commit any actual energy to the hobby.  As Agar stated--a little revolution is healthy.  Isn't that what founded this country?  The majority are demanding a change, and it's time to look at our options, which may include a split in the forum.  That mentality of "this is how it's been, and always will be" is just ridiculous.  I'm with Prajna 100%.

FYI, this isn't the way it has always been.  Once upon a time, people actually read the grow teks and FAQ, and most invested a tremendous amount of time into learning this hobby, inside and out.  This is not the case today, obviously.




:thumbup:

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OfflinePrajna
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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: Mcdoopy]
    #4867921 - 10/29/05 06:22 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for your input here too simisu. You bring up some good points and it's obvious that you know quite a bit about how a split would work out in reality, not just on paper. And I fear from your first post here that you may be right.

You had asked me what I would do if I were an admin?

I would just realize that there is a problem, read the members view points about it, and then come to a decision whether or not it merited some kind of change...that's pretty much what it needs, at this point, a good looking over.

I would also issue a statement over what types of threads deserved to be MOVED VS. what threads deserve to CLOSED. Just to set the record straight. But I may be a bit biased...lol

You should come over to cult more, man, your just the kind of voice that's needed there.

You have some great ideas yourself, however I think that a "cracking down" by the mods might cause some backlash with the newer members. This might cause the site to be looked at as "heavy handed", or "overmoderated" and put people off.

You sound like someone that is involved with the wider entheogen community on the net, is this really a problem that no one has found a good solution to? Just wondering how the other sites handle these kinds of problems...


--------------------

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Invisiblesrgtm1a
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CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: Simisu]
    #4867989 - 10/29/05 06:40 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

simisu said:
Quote:

srgtm1a said:
I know that there are problems that need to be fixed in the cult forums.

Otherwise, you will have new cultivators giving advice to new cultivators and that is how misinformation begins.




what do you think will happen if they split the forums?
the mods can't correct answers all the time or give them... a community such as this one has to have a bunch of people to help along and i assume once a split occurs most of you guys will avoid the noob playground (and those who actually have a question with merit might as well post it in the intermediate forum right?)
it might solve YOUR problem but it's still just ignoring THE problem...

I'm not against a split though... I'm just making an argument i think should be considered and discussed
I'm also no a regular poster on the cultivation forums but believe me I've seen enough of those to know EXACTLY what you're talking about and, I've been in the same position to give good advice and refute bad advice as well

maybe the cultivation forums should not be available for posting until a user has a month old account (but of course viewable)?
what i like about the shroomery was the amount of respect it's members hold to the mushroom... where ever i read people stated over and over how important it is to take this thing seriously and respect and then respect some more... well... that way they'll have a good month to create some respect to the issue be for jumping in the BS boat and asking for answers as if they're the only ones in the universe that still don't know what's what and HAVE to catch up NOW!

or maybe we should have a couple or more mods and strict regulation to the cult forum with some added rules?

or maybe split the forums in a different way...
one for setup and equipment questions (also for ideal conditions in each step of growing)?
and one for substrate, spores and culture making (and also to discuss ideal conditions of fruiting)?

or something of that sort...





I really don't think it will be ignored...at least by me anyway. It really will be the job of the people that have a problem with the way things are now to make this work, and it will.

I see what you are saying about people ignoring it, but that is exactly what is going on right now. A lot of seasoned cultivators are not posting anymore because they are put off by a lot of the posts currently being put up.

If there was a "beginners" forum, you know to expect questions like that. I would be more than happy to answer those in an appropriate forum. And it would also bring down the "thread traffic". With the new forum separation, they could see that there is an existing thread that pertains to their question that wasn't already lost on page 2 or higher because of the huge amount of postings.

With the way the current forum is, there is both beginner and middle of the road questions. Some new members may get intimidated, or put off from posting, in fear of sounding dumb, and will often times get bashed for asking the same question, or what others would consider a silly question.

And it is intimidating for a new cultivator to go into a forum and see post about LC's, Agar, G2G, and want to know if they should ask a simple question about substrate.

With a beginners forum they could ask questions like "what is the best strain to start with" etc and not get bashed because of it. Questions like that would be expected and welcomed there. New cultivators, IMO, would be less afraid to post, based on the name of the forum. Makes for a more comfortable environment for them.

Just "ignoring" them if they post a thread isn't going to make them search. If no one answers their question, they will just create another thread when the first one falls to page 2 or higher.

A forum split is needed, and seems to be what most people in the cult forums really want.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4865636/an/0/page/0


It may be a little bit of a rough transition at first, but I think everything will work out for the better in the end.

Edited by srgtm1a (10/29/05 08:03 PM)

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save the drama... for ... no fuck it do away with it. [Re: Prajna]
    #4868003 - 10/29/05 06:43 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

each and every member is important. both hippie chick and pranja have helped me incredible amounts without even knowing it. if hippie chick has sway on a mod, so be it. prajna you might wanna try bein sexy and gettin in good with a mod if you want that kinda clout. theres notthing you can do short of sounding like a baby about this. maybe work your way twords bein a mod and this thing your doin here isnt gonna get you to that position. good luck.


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Re: save the drama... for ... no fuck it do away with it. [Re: X24]
    #4868061 - 10/29/05 07:00 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

you should be the one "saving the drama"... i'm sorry but your post is pretty much all around wrong!

if anything these kinds of posts show that a user actualy cares... unlike your self (if you cared at all you'd bother READING this thread and comenting on the actual discution rather then the topic name... meh...)

i should actualy simply ignore your post becouse replaying it IS making "drama" but i think it's more important to stay with the topics general direction rather then have you sway it back to it's unfotunate creation...


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InvisibleSimisu
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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: Prajna]
    #4868142 - 10/29/05 07:26 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prajna said:

You should come over to cult more, man, your just the kind of voice that's needed there. 




Thanks but i don't have enough expiriance to share really and since i can't grow for now i'm also not that interested in the process (i've learned what i had to and when i'll need to learn more i certenly know where and how to do it :grin: ) but belive me some day i'll join that part of this BB and do my best to help!

Quote:

Prajna said:
You have some great ideas yourself, however I think that a "cracking down" by the mods might cause some backlash with the newer members.  This might cause the site to be looked at as "heavy handed", or "overmoderated" and put people off. 




or maybe it'll help noobs realize that this is indeed a siriuse matter and should not be taken lightly? yeah some noobs would probably give up but honestly i don't think we'll miss those...
this website should try to attract adoults rather then teenagers and as such i would expect adoults to be more patiant and understanding twards this issue

Quote:

Prajna said:
You sound like someone that is involved with the wider entheogen community on the net, is this really a problem that no one has found a good solution to?  Just wondering how the other sites handle these kinds of problems...




well... i haven't been around THAT much but i remember the cannabis.com BB having this exect problame and well... OverGrow has become a cesspool of BS (you have to waft through tons of stupid questions to extract some valubale knoledge)
a local forum i used to post in looks kinda like what the shroomery cult forum looks today after a split from just one forum (yeah the advanced guys have their own forum but there's no new discusstions apart from the grow logs) and the begginers forums are still pretty lame (but that's a smaller forum over all so...)

anyway you can observe it on any other larg BBs out there... noobs will be noobs wherever you clicky (not matter if it's cultivation related or any other type of skill... photographing/lucid dreaming/iRiver usage and so on...)
either you make it really clear that redundent questions will not be tolarated (and lose a few users... but maybe for the best) or you branch out (which ultimatly hurts the noobs... not always though... it really depends on the number of dedicated useres out there...) or you simply don't care and your forum is run to the grownd

of course all this is just my humble opinion... i would'nt dare call this facts...
after all the consept of BBs is pretty new and hopfully with time solutions will arise (or the shroomery will take over the world and teach the young some respect and wisdome  :tongue:  :mushroom2: )


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Re: save the drama... for ... no fuck it do away with it. [Re: X24]
    #4868190 - 10/29/05 07:42 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

X24 said:
each and every member is important. both hippie chick and pranja have helped me incredible amounts without even knowing it. if hippie chick has sway on a mod, so be it. prajna you might wanna try bein sexy and gettin in good with a mod if you want that kinda clout. theres notthing you can do short of sounding like a baby about this. maybe work your way twords bein a mod and this thing your doin here isnt gonna get you to that position. good luck.




Hey I resent that!  I'm plenty sexy!  errr...in a hairy sorta way...


What part of asking the mods to do their jobs correctly is being a baby though, threads should be closed because they have nothing to add, or because they have become nothing but flaming pits of anger, etc... 

When a thread is in the wrong forum it should be MOVED...

With that said.  I agree that my tirades on this issue have taken away from the original intent, and I hope it won't hurt my chances of having the ACTUAL meaning behind the thread read anyway...and indeed it HAS become drama.

I made my point though, and have dropped the matter, hopefully it won't happen again to someone less likely to speak up for themselves.

I can't believe I'm getting flamed for "questioning authority" here.

What the hell kind of drug forum is THIS!!??  :laugh: 

Boy, just when you thought there was something that we REALLY ALL could agree upon... :eek:

Thanks for reminding me of my sexiness though, I'm off to stare in the mirror now...bye!


--------------------

Edited by Prajna (10/29/05 08:18 PM)

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InvisibleHolydiver
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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: Prajna]
    #4868247 - 10/29/05 08:15 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

So far, I really like what Srgtm1a has mentioned and think we should build on the idea of 3 forums. Beginner cultivation can be a pub like chit chat environment, but intermediate may have to be ruled with an iron fist for a short while, or at least until people realize it's not a playground.

Advanced forum can be left as is, but we need to work on topics + material to be covered in the beginner and intermediate forum, and figure out how to get the best of both worlds at this point.

Check out Agar's Poll, popular opinion speaks for itself.

So, any further ideas on forum setup? Throw some more ideas out there if you guys have any, so at least we can get a blueprint rolling and have something presentable for the admins.

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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: Holydiver]
    #4868273 - 10/29/05 08:23 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I agree 100% Holy, Srgtm1a has had probably the best and most detailed ideas that we saw from this post...


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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: Prajna]
    #4868337 - 10/29/05 08:56 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

one more thing that might work BTW is making a few general threads (each with a specific subject) with the best teks usualy discussed like "PF - what kind of verm do i use, how best do i use it?" covering most of what we already know about that specific subject and if anyone has further questions about that it's ristricted to THAT specific thread (then it can be further addited to be as informative as possible) thus making a noob read at least a couple of thread pages on a specific subject to actualy ask a question about that subject (kinda like a primitive FAQ actualy but still open to discusstion and questions)

so other general questions do infact spend much more time at the top of the page and you have a few huge threads that often come up
(with a sticky to link to all these specific threads)


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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: Simisu]
    #4868579 - 10/29/05 10:16 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

i'm gonna hit something here that no one has mentioned. i remember being a noob and reading that i needed to do a search before asking a dumb question. being a noob i didn't know how to filter crap out of a search. the results for "what is a potent strain?" would come up with 50 million post of people asking that question and it getting shot down w/o answer. on the other hand, if they read their faq's they would have found that one pretty high on the list. just a point to ponder.

now for something productive. i recently checked on another "how to do shit you're not supposed to do" site, and how they got around noobs asking dumb shit where smart people hung out was an application process. there is a minimum number of post required, and they have to be of a certain quality. it's like a private club that only being dedicated to will get you in. i personally was a dedicated member before i even found this place. i got interested in the hobby, had my first grow, and then found the shroomery. then i got alot better.

i know it is good to grow in size and spread knowledge, but some of the things we do here need to be more private.

peace yall, i'm out!!!


--------------------
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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: Prajna]
    #4868913 - 10/29/05 11:43 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

No offense, but I think Roadkill wasn't unfair. You should of posted the thread in WA&F to begin with. There is plenty of the exposure you wanted here. I wouldn't post scat in OTD while requesting the removal of scat. Just for that fact your topic is getting more attention than it deserves. The discussion would be more to the point if that was the reason and topic of this thread...  :smirk:


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OfflineHippieChick
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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: Prajna]
    #4869358 - 10/30/05 01:00 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prajna said:
Edit: 

I am adding this in an effort to be taken more seriously in the case that some may follow this over from the original thread posted in cult forum, or that it might be read by an admin.   

I would just like to say that at the time of writing, I was rather upset but have cooled off, and while I don't regret any of the following, it should be understood that I am not normally this argumentative.

I would also implore the admins to *please* read the original thread that caused this to be posted here. 

I think that this was a flagrant abuse of power on Roadkills part, and a tragedy for an excellent thread that was filled with great input from the membership. 

At first reading it may seem like just another stupid argument but it is not.

Thank you,

End edit.


Original post:  http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=Forum2&Number=4861357&page=1&fpart=1


---------------------------------------------------------------------------


My thread was locked for a bullshit reason AS I was posting to another member who ATTACKED me in my own thread and then cried about leaving the boards over an issue that she had no real opinion or constructive criticism on anyway.

I want to say My piece about it.

Below is what I WAS posting as the thread was locked, it has not been changed and I find it ironic that I predicted that any negative response I used to retaliate to her underhanded attack on me would cause the thread to be locked. 

I think that anyone who has half a brain can see that Hippies empty promises of leaving the boards was nothing more than a manipulative attempt to shut the thread down anyway.  How nice for her that this message board is a fucking popularity contest and not a place to share real ideas anyway. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------Well, I wasn't really going to respond, since you and I have already chatted :grin:, but I thought I'd like to clear up some of the confusion.

Quote:

HippieChick said:
And here's my point. Now that this thread is running, everybody thinks it's cool to be a smart ass. Good job.

You know, if the cult forum isn't what you want, don't be a jerk, go to the advanced forum and stay there.

The cult forum is a starting place, like Kindergarten,lol. Kids don't start school in the third or fourth grade. You don't go to Kindergarten and expect them to be studying Einstein's Theory of Relativity . You've got kids learning finger painting, ABC's and how to count,lol. And not to eat Elmer's glue no matter how good it tastes.

Think about how far those kids would go if the Teacher told them how stupid they are and didn't encourage them. These questions are never going to stop. Like mentioned, not as long as vendors promote this one as potent, this one as visual and this one as a body high and so on and so on. Just leads to more confusion .

Peeps need to start somewhere. Since there's only the cult and advanced forum, where would you rather have them do it. Sure peeps could search a little more before posting, but even I don't like the search function and have never used it. You'll never be able to stop the endless , repetitive questions. Just as we've never been able to eliminate kindergarten. Peeps have to start somewhere. It only seems to be bothering those who have gained a little knowledge .

I think I'm going to delete all my posts and pics. If thats how peeps are going to act after gaining a little knowledge, I don't want to be any part of it.

That Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony I use in my sig isn't just something I think is cute. It's my way of life. Even have it tattooed on my body,lol.

It's one thing to tell someone to search, it's another to be a rude smart ass.

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony.
:heart: Hippie Chick  :mushroom2:





----------------------------------------------------------------------

This WOULD have been my response to that:


-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Hippie did you even READ this thread?  If you did you wouldn't be saying things like -

"You know, if the cult forum isn't what you want, don't be a jerk, go to the advanced forum and stay there."

I specifically said in my very first post in this thread that I believe that there needs to be an intermediate forum, because I am not advanced enough for the advanced, and am sick of the crap that goes on here.





Here is the beginning of the confusion. When I said "you", I meant anyone checking out the forum. Like, if its not for you, search elsewhere. I didn't mean you directly. Sorry. If you recall, I wasn't replying to anything you said, just the link you posted, as that was your thread. And when I said don't be a jerk, I meant don't stick around just to insult peeps.



It think it is fairly well evidenced by this post that I am NOT the only one!  If people are being smartass's or pricks to other posters it is hardly my fault!  Don't insult my intelligence by blaming me for a problem that existed well before this post.





This problem has always existed. I'm not blaming you for it. It just seems, from my experience, that whenever it gets put in the spotlight, a kinda mob mentally takes over. If you look at the replys to the post that was mentioned in this thread, its pretty evident.http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4863743#Post4863743 As , I , myself fell victim to it once myself. I did apologize afterwards though. A thread like this was running, I read it and the next time I saw one of the annoying posts, I wasn't my usual polite self. :frown: Now, check out the replys to almost the same, asked 20 times a week question that wasn't mentioned.http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4864681#Post4864681 That's what I meant,lol, about the mob mentallity.



You know I am very happy that you are into the peace love and charity thing but, EVERYONE IS NOT YOU.  I opened this thread because I, and others feel exactly the SAME way that you do.  That this IS like kindergarden, and there needs to be something done about those of us who WISH to have someplace to graduate to.




This is the problem we are trying to solve. And the only problem I have is the treatment of some of the peeps NOT ready to move on.




No I wouldn't take a kindergerdener and throw him into university, that wouldn't make any sense.  But following your solution is like keeping him in kindergarden until he is 25...and that doesn't make much sense either...I mean C'mon...

This thread was not opened in an attempt to rally support for a gang of newbie bashers, it was opened to point out a problem that some of us have that is NOT being taken seriously.  It was opened so that POSITIVE, GOAL MINDED, CONSTRUCTIVE ACTION to a this problem could be addressed so that the bashing would STOP.  It was already a problem before this post!!

I take your comments as a personal attack on me and it is NOT appreciated. 




Once again, when I said you, I didn't mean "you" personally. And I'm self centered,lol. Everything's about you, just kidding. :grin: Sorry again. I think that simple misunderstanding was the whole problem .




If you are so self centered and weak-minded that you think that YOUR point is THE ONLY point that matters.  Then do what you keep threatening to do and take your finger-paints and go home...




I do agree about you with the problem. My only point has been, don't be rude or mean to peeps. If the hostillity continues, I will take my finger-paints and go home. Not far to go,lol.



There are probably people with "Fuck the world" tattooed on their body here too, and I think they deserve to be heard as much as you do.  You may be happy being a carefree waif who likes to turn her back on problems instead of meeting the challenge of actually DOING something about them...but thankfully I am not!

P.S - Don't you dare accuse other peoples actions on me, and don't call me a jerk!



Already addressed that.



Now with that said I fully expect one of the mods to run to your rescue and close this thread, and if that happens I will also take my finger paints and go home.  Because it's one thing to moderate a site and another entirely to craft it into a fascist state where any bit of  discussion cannot be tolerated. 



I'm a big girl. I can take care of myself,lol. 


----------------------------------------------------------------------



Is this all it takes to get your threads locked here, a little sniveling from another member.   

You can be lovey dovey to your buddies all you want Road, But DON'T do it on MY posts.   

I fully expect to be banned for THIS post because this seems to be the general consensus on this board...not to let people be heard when you don't like what they have to say...

But I would ask that I not be banned from viewing the other shroomery info.  I am still an avid cultivator and would like to go back to being a silent lurker. 

I don't think this is too much to ask...for those who have ACTUALLY read my posts, they know that for my short stay, I was a good contributer.








I really don't think that's why Road closed it. He was just asking  me to not delete my stuff. I guess it's been more helpful to peeps then I thought. Your post had nothing to do with it. I've been a little upset over peeps treatment for a little while now. I didn't want your post closed. I wasn't aware of a problem between us till this thread. Again, sorry for the misunderstanding.

Again, sorry for the misunderstanding :blush:

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony.
:heart: Hippie Chick  :mushroom2:


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Invisiblesrgtm1a
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CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: HippieChick]
    #4869757 - 10/30/05 08:13 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

The whole thing sounds like a big misunderstanding about the thread being locked or what you said.....I think it was all in the wording.
I hope that that is all settled and out of the way now.

But either way, we should get passed all of that and stick to the "cult forum split" discussion.

Prajna, maybe you should change the topic of the thread to "cult forum split" instead of "unfair moderation" since that is the bulk of what is being talked about, and the initial reason for your first thread.

we are not going to get very far if half the thread is suggestions, and the other half is accusations and fighting.

You, hippiechick, and Roadkill are all good people, so let's just forget about all of that, and stick to what is important here.

Edited by srgtm1a (10/30/05 09:39 AM)

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OfflinePrajna
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: srgtm1a]
    #4870199 - 10/30/05 10:53 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

srgtm1a said:
The whole thing sounds like a big misunderstanding about the thread being locked or what you said.....I think it was all in the wording.
I hope that that is all settled and out of the way now.

But either way, we should get passed all of that and stick to the "cult forum split" discussion.

ge the topic of the thread to "cult forum split" instead of "unfair moderation" since that is the bulk of what is being talked about, and the initial reason for your first thread.

we are not going to get very far if half the thread is suggestions, and the other half is accusations and fighting.

You, hippiechick, and Roadkill are all good people, so let's just forget about all of that, and stick to what is important here.




I couldn't agree more man, and I apologize for taking it this far, I have talked with Hippiechick about in PM's and she has made me realize that I too am in the wrong in some ways.

Road and Hippie ARE good people, and deserve more respect.

With that said, enough about it already!...lol


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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: Prajna]
    #4870313 - 10/30/05 11:18 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

okay, wanna start over?

how about a new thread in this forum, with respect from all sides, and we'll see what people think and want. in my opinion, there is a middle ground between cult and adv cult - i'm regularly chucking threads from adv to cult because they're composed by someone who'll know their own answer in three months of hanging around and reading, or growing mushrooms, or reading the FAQ; but sometimes there's one that could be better placed.

if you start a new thread in here, i'm sure it will get lots of interest.



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OfflinePrajna
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: shirley knott]
    #4871642 - 10/30/05 05:13 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

shirley knott said:
okay, wanna start over?

how about a new thread in this forum, with respect from all sides, and we'll see what people think and want. 




Sounds good to me.  :thumbup:

But I would ask...is there any way to take all of the pertinent info from this thread and move only those to a new threads?  There are some good ideas in this thread and I would hate to see them lost.

If that's not possible then no biggie, do whatever you think is best with it Shirl. 

And could you open and name the new thread?  I just don't know what would be the best title.  Thanks


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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: shirley knott]
    #4872903 - 10/30/05 09:27 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

shirley knott said:





'nuff said


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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: Prajna]
    #4873811 - 10/31/05 01:37 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I don't exactly see how a beginner forum will help combat the laziness of certain individuals.
IMO the better solution would be to make the Cultivation FAQ
www.shroomery.org/faq
even more comprehensive and better.

The fact is, you can't learn about a complex subject by starting a new post about every little problem you occur underway. You learn by STUDYING faq, books and the post archives in order to get the big picture. By creating a beginner forum you only encourage the laziness.

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Offline_OttO_
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: Anno]
    #4874131 - 10/31/05 07:43 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Anno said:
I don't exactly see how a beginner forum will help combat the laziness of certain individuals.

By creating a beginner forum you only encourage the laziness.




I agree with this.

I have been thinking this over long and hard - I thought the idea of having a cetain number of posts was a good one. Or, for example, people could have a compulsory grow log before being able to post in the intermediates forum. Even though lots of people havent got access to a digital camera, a written grow log would at least give them, or more importantly - prove to everyone, that they have enough skill to post in the intermediate forum.

But, the fact of it is, who is going to answer the beginners questions? Other beginners? Who is going to moderate the beginners forum? And what, other than answering questions, can we talk about in the cultivation forum that isnt actually anything in between beginners cultivation and advanced cultivation?

Yes, it is a fact that there are lots of stupid questions asked in the cult forum. If you read a stupid question - utilise the back button on your browser. If someone is serious about cultivating, and no one answers their question, then they will go and find out for themselves. If they arent serious about cultivating, and are looking for an easy way out, they'll give up quickly.

It doesnt take long to work out who is worth discussing this hobby with on these forums. My suggestion is making your own decision on who that is - and mixing with those people. If you feel like helping out some newbs, do it. If not, don't.  :stoned: :thumbup:

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OfflinePrajna
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: _OttO_]
    #4874294 - 10/31/05 08:51 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Your argument and your solution are contradictory otto. Basically you are saying that if there was a split, there would be no one to answer the beginner forum questions. Yet in the same breath you are saying that if people don't want to answer newb questions they should just ignore them.

When it comes right down to it, people CHOOSE whether or not to answer these questions on there own anyway. Be it that they just want to give back, or because they are doing it out of a sense of "Pay it forward", or even because they just feel like chatting at the time, there is still the motivation to answer the questions.

A new forum is not suddenly going to wipe out that motivation, IMO.

A lot of people who have something to say about genetics or cloning, have been to advanced cult to look around or post, but didn't turn their back on general cult.

I too have given this a lot of thought, and the more I think about it, the more it seems to me to be a simple problem of organization. It seems like a housecleaning issue to me.

I mean if you went to the library and all the librarians were like -

"Hmmm...we have enough shelves, but we have too many new books coming in to fit on the ones we have...lets just throw them on the floor in a pile and let the people sift through them to find the ones they like."

What happens when the library users can't find their book?

They get frustrated and ornery and start fighting with one another, eventually they turn that frustration on the librarians and say -

"Hey librarians....I really like having this library to come too but why don't you just organize the books a little better? Maybe set up a new shelf or something and categorize it."

Following your logic the librarians are saying -

"Hey man, It's your job to go through the pile, it's really very simple, just ignore the books that you don't like to find the ones you do"

That does nothing to address the situation that the books are all piled up together.

Lets say that every book in that pile deals with cars, in some fashion or another, some cover topics like shampooing the interior, and others on how to rebuild a carb and yet others on the proper way to start a car. It is illogical to say that if I further refine the "car section" and put like topics together, that it will NOT be less frustrating for the visitors, quite the opposite in fact...

And the issue here is the frustration level more I think than the willingness to help others.

Organization by it's very nature serves one purpose...to make things run smoother.

Ask yourself that question otto, if you were able to find your own book more efficiently, would that keep you from helping the other book lookers?

People who hold doors open for others at the shopping mall, are people who hold doors open at the shopping mall...and people who don't...don't.

Just because this time you used the West entrance instead of the North entrance to the mall, does not mean that you are not going to continue to hold doors open for others, or not hold doors open for others. People who help, will help, people who don't won't.

They are two separate issues, IMO.

Great input though man! I guess the issue IS laziness too, to a certain degree, because the information IS here, and the site IS well organized as it is. Seems to me like it just needs a new shelf.


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Offline_OttO_
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: Prajna]
    #4874587 - 10/31/05 10:13 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prajna said:
Following your logic the librarians are saying -

"Hey man, It's your job to go through the pile, it's really very simple, just ignore the books that you don't like to find the ones you do"




Exactly my logic - as our pile of "books" is not nearly the same size as a libraries pile of books, it doesnt take a genius to sort through the list of books that are on offer each day - there arent that many news ones. I read what takes my interest within an hour of browsing the "pile".

Quote:

Prajna said:
Lets say that every book in that pile deals with cars, in some fashion or another, some cover topics like shampooing the interior, and others on how to rebuild a carb and yet others on the proper way to start a car. It is illogical to say that if I further refine the "car section" and put like topics together, that it will NOT be less frustrating for the visitors, quite the opposite in fact...




It sounds, with this type of example, that you would like a seperate "shelf" for every topic in the hobby, or a seperate forum for each part of the cultivation process.

This is what you'll find in the FAQ - a nicely organised series of shelves, splitting up all the different aspects to working on our "cars" (but, if you want to relate them - you could say the "shampooing" would fall happily into the contamination forum (or prevention thereof), the "rebuilding of a carby" would be more advanced cult, while "starting a car" would be your basic cult).

If someone asks the librarian for information on a book thats already on the shelf, right in front of them (the FAQ) - as a librarian - I'd simply ignore them. That is a stupid question. But, If they are having trouble starting their car after already reading the book on how, then I'd happily look in to the possible reasons as to why it wont start.

Quote:

Prajna said:
Ask yourself that question otto, if you were able to find your own book more efficiently, would that keep you from helping the other book lookers?




The cult forum isnt about looking for a specific "book" anyway, it is about browsing a random selection of books to see what takes your interest, and, if you find one that does - doing your bit to help write some of that book. If it turns out to be a good book, it stays at the top of the book list - and there is even a counter next to the title to let you know how many people have read that book. If it turns out to be a really good book, the senior librarians move a copy of it from the pile to the permanent shelves (FAQ). If if turns out to be a dud, as most do, it withers away into the vastness never to be seen again.

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Invisiblesrgtm1a
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: _OttO_]
    #4875456 - 10/31/05 02:17 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I have already said my piece on this.....There does need to be a split.

And more importantly:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4865636/an/0/page/0

82% of the people that post in the cult forums agree.  That should be enough reason right there.

The split in the forum will not only help separate the types of growers questions by growing ability, it will also organize the forums better.  More importantly, cutting down thread traffic so people have a chance to get their questions answered before it falls to page 2 or beyond.

The reason to separate the forums into beginner, intermediate, and advanced is not a sure fire way to stop laziness of new growers....Because it won't, nothing will.

But at least this way, they can have their own forum to ask questions like that that would normally be ignored or ridiculed in the current forum.

Creating an updated Cult FAQ is not going to help anything.....people don't read the ones that are there now.  More importantly, a lot of new growers do not even know where to find them because they are unfamiliar with the website layout (as I have been told from many new users on #cultivation on IRC).

What some people may see as "easy navigation" others may see as very difficult.

The cult forums are not "about browsing a random selection of books to see what takes your interest, and, if you find one that does - doing your bit to help write some of that book"

It is about helping everybody, not just the ones that take interest to you only and ignoring the rest.

If that was the case, there would only be a list of teks and FAQs and no need for a forum at all.

Ignoring the posts that you don't find interesting, and taking a Laze Fair attitude toward this, is just going to turn the current cult forum into a giant, unorganized mess(it is starting to look that way now).  Especially with the waves of new members.  It will become harder to find information with that much unorganization.

In conclusion,  FREE Nelson Mandela :grin:

Edited by srgtm1a (10/31/05 02:30 PM)

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: srgtm1a]
    #4876081 - 10/31/05 05:02 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

admittedly, I haven't read the whole thread because it starts off
on somewhat of a bad foot, but I'm curious...what is it about
creating an intermediate forum that helps to mitigate unwanted
traffic and gets questions answered?

won't begininer questions still spill into intermediate and upwards
into advanced?

breaking the problem into two tiers doesn't do anything to solve
the root issue (if there is one), does it?

if 83% agree that they need a intermediate forum because they
are tired of all the repetition and laziness, doesn't that imply they
would be spending their time in the middle forum, avoiding the
beginers forum and leaving basic cult void of many of the voices
that were helping to answer questions in the first place?

furthermore, by moving slightly more advanced discussion out
of the forum robs those users of the experience of observing
discussions and discourse on techniques and problem solving.
unless of course they come into the intermediate forum and
beging to observe and participate...

in which case, you've simply made basic cult obsolete by putting
the interesting conversations in a seperate forum and left the users
with the most real need for guidance without many of the supportive
voices they used to benefit from.


--------------------
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InvisibleRESTLESS
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: shirley knott]
    #4876123 - 10/31/05 05:11 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

shirley knott said:
if you start a new thread in here, i'm sure it will get lots of interest.






Very interestin' :thumbup:


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InvisibleHolydiver
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: afoaf]
    #4876153 - 10/31/05 05:20 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
won't begininer questions still spill into intermediate and upwards
into advanced?




Beginner questions don't spill into advanced as it is, why would they spill into an intermediate forum? If questions appear that aren't in sync with the topics covered for that specific forum, then they get moved back to where they belong.

Quote:

afoaf said:
furthermore, by moving slightly more advanced discussion out
of the forum robs those users of the experience of observing
discussions and discourse on techniques and problem solving.
unless of course they come into the intermediate forum and
beging to observe and participate...



How would they be robbed of the experience? We aren't suggesting that anyone needs a certain post count to view and/or participate. The advanced forum offers material way over many heads, but there are still tons of users that participate, regardless if they are of skill level to or not.

Quote:

afoaf said:
you've simply made basic cult obsolete by putting
the interesting conversations in a seperate forum



Nothing is being made obselete, if anything, the material will be managed better and made more accessible to all. The problem is that we have a lot of material that isn't beginner, or necessarily advanced, but right in the middle. People that want to discuss the middle material are getting frustrated, because their posts are being drowned out from "Hey, is this a good strain?" type of threads. There's too much traffic in the beginner forum.


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Invisiblesrgtm1a
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: afoaf]
    #4876169 - 10/31/05 05:25 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
admittedly, I haven't read the whole thread because it starts off
on somewhat of a bad foot, but I'm curious...what is it about
creating an intermediate forum that helps to mitigate unwanted
traffic and gets questions answered?

won't begininer questions still spill into intermediate and upwards
into advanced?

breaking the problem into two tiers doesn't do anything to solve
the root issue (if there is one), does it?

if 83% agree that they need a intermediate forum because they
are tired of all the repetition and laziness, doesn't that imply they
would be spending their time in the middle forum, avoiding the
beginers forum and leaving basic cult void of many of the voices
that were helping to answer questions in the first place?

furthermore, by moving slightly more advanced discussion out
of the forum robs those users of the experience of observing
discussions and discourse on techniques and problem solving.
unless of course they come into the intermediate forum and
beging to observe and participate...

in which case, you've simply made basic cult obsolete by putting
the interesting conversations in a seperate forum and left the users
with the most real need for guidance without many of the supportive
voices they used to benefit from.




I knew the start of this thread would put a lot of people off from reading it.

but no, the beginner stuff will not flood over into intermediate. Those threads will have to be moved, and some strict rules will have to be applied about the posts.....like I said, at the beginning, it will be a little rough but it will work out for the best in the end. But if you read the posts that mainly pertain to the forum split, and not the arguing, you will get a better understanding.

It will be up to the members that have a problem with the way things are to make sure that the beginner forum does not go unanswered.

because of the arguing at the beginning of this thread...i'm afraid a lot of it will fall on deaf ears....which is very unfortunate.

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InvisibleSimisu
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: Anno]
    #4876659 - 10/31/05 07:20 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Anno said:
I don't exactly see how a beginner forum will help combat the laziness of certain individuals.
IMO the better solution would be to make the Cultivation FAQ
www.shroomery.org/faq
even more comprehensive and better.

The fact is, you can't learn about a complex subject by starting a new post about every little problem you occur underway. You learn by STUDYING faq, books and the post archives in order to get the big picture. By creating a beginner forum you only encourage the laziness.




i agree with anno...
i remember when i first came here and tried to make sense of the FAQ... i got lost in all the information (which is non liniar to say the least...) what i tried to do is get a mental picture of EVERYTHING i'll need how i can get it and what it takes to make it work...
i ended up following a VERY short guide (off site... in hebrew) discribing in general the PF tek... now... if i was stupid and lazy i'd probably fail with the "little things" sterilety and such :smirk:
but i kept searching every time i had a little doubt about a certine process... it wasn't easy but i had patiance and time...
most of the annoying noobs don't!
so if it's not presented to them in such a way that it can't be missed they'd rather ask in the forums!

i think maybe rearanging the FAQ to a more liniar type thing with LESS pages and less pages like "do i need a pressure cooker"... that question can be answered as part of another section (making the substrate sterile for inoculation)
that takes alot of work though... having compiled my guide from misc posts and a rudementary FAQ i know it does
it's a labour of love  :grin:

anyway that might be a good start... but again i strongly segguest having some "mother threads" that noobs can stick to
or maybe even asking noobs to post all their questions in ONE thread instead of opening a gezillion threads each time something itches?


--------------------
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OfflinePrajna
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: Simisu]
    #4877142 - 10/31/05 08:53 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Hey guys, I agree wholeheartedly with the thread starting off on the wrong foot hurting the real issue.

I feel it was wrong of me to bring the problems I had with the closure up so publicly and have said as much to one of the parties involved. The other wouldn't accept an apology anyway so I haven't even bothered.

I have deleted all of my original posts, and publicly and privately asked for the good information that's here to be moved to a new thread.

In short, I was in the wrong to start it this way, I accept full responsibility, and I really am doing my best to rectify things so that we may get over it.

Please though, to bring it up further just exasperates the problem and turns us off track from the real issue again.


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OfflinePrajna
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: Prajna]
    #4877205 - 10/31/05 09:03 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Back on issue though, anno and otto bring up excellent points. Perhaps things could be solved with updating the FAQ's and leaving the forum the way it is. Someone mentioned an compendium to the FAQ with all of the top beginners questions ie. "which strain is most potent", etc. I think that this is an excellent idea as well.

Perhaps these things would go far enough to answer these questions on there own, and subsequently bring down traffic. It would create far less work for the mods to do this I would think then to organize a completely new forum.

It really is something to consider.


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OfflinegeokillsA
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: Prajna]
    #4877264 - 10/31/05 09:12 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prajna said:
It would create far less work for the mods to do this I would think then to organize a completely new forum.

It really is something to consider.



Yes, that really is something to consider indeed! Upon the request of HolyDiver, I've been keeping an active eye on these threads - however at the current time I feel that this task would take such an obscene amount of dedication, coordination, and constant activity by the moderators of the given cult forums, that it will not be feasible unless all the current moderators are on the same page from the get-go.

I also agree that some FAQ robustification would be much more worth the effort, including organizing some of the current database into a "Beginners FAQ" that will comprise information in a step-by-step format for ease of understanding while continually growing upon the previous knowledge gained (instead of forcing a user to wade through a plethora of documents that are seemingly unrelated to the naive cultivator).

Good posts in this thread.


--------------------

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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: geokills]
    #4877705 - 10/31/05 10:17 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I just posted my opinion in a separate thread called "Cultivation Forum Quiz", so some of you migrate over there and tell me what you think.

I am of the opinion it is the only practical solution offered yet, as the mire that the forums would become for the moderators trying to figure out what criteria to judge a beginner by would be ridiculous.


--------------------
No question is so difficult to answer as that to which the answer is obvious.

Meow.

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OfflinePrajna
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: geokills]
    #4877914 - 10/31/05 10:56 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

geokills said:
Quote:

Prajna said:
It would create far less work for the mods to do this I would think then to organize a completely new forum.

It really is something to consider.



Yes, that really is something to consider indeed! Upon the request of HolyDiver, I've been keeping an active eye on these threads - however at the current time I feel that this task would take such an obscene amount of dedication, coordination, and constant activity by the moderators of the given cult forums, that it will not be feasible unless all the current moderators are on the same page from the get-go.

I also agree that some FAQ robustification would be much more worth the effort, including organizing some of the current database into a "Beginners FAQ" that will comprise information in a step-by-step format for ease of understanding while continually growing upon the previous knowledge gained (instead of forcing a user to wade through a plethora of documents that are seemingly unrelated to the naive cultivator).

Good posts in this thread.





Geo thank you for watching the threads.

I think that if the best thing that can come of this is a solution that does not include a split then it is important to at the very least admit that there IS a problem, and take some kind of corrective action.

I as well as many others thought that the split would be best, and I have argued it to the best of my ability, but it is more important sometimes to do what you can do, then do nothing. It was never my intention to present an "all-or-nothing" position on this issue so I think that you and the other mods are to be absolutely commended for making an effort to do what it is in your power to do.

It has become obvious to me that the will of those at the top is not to have a split. If so then there will be no split, it is my only wish now to have that known to the membership to stop the snowball that this issue has become as soon as possible.

It has taken a course that is no longer constructive and this is well evedenced by the most recent postings about it in the cult forum.

I would also like to say that there are quite a few of us who will help the effort in anyway possible, if asked.

Thanks again for listening.


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OfflineMycoCat
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: Prajna]
    #4877988 - 10/31/05 11:14 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

So instead of a split or a solution, the problem is going to continue to be ignored?

I understand this has been gone over numerous times, but can someone tell me why no one wants to actually fix the problem? The fact that so many people ask the same questions does not testify to the retardation of the masses; rather, could it point to a possible failing in the way the Shroomery presents information? The sheer bulk of it makes it problematic for the average grower, so what about the many people who are below average? It is easy to say we don't want them here if that's the case, but what about actually doing something to change it?

If you did split the forum into Beginner and Intermediate sections, and implemented a minimum knowledge requirement to post past Beginner, you would be creating an incentive for those users to learn this information. And since a study guide could be created out of the basic FAQ information the quiz questions would be on, it would be a much more compact and feasible goal for many of those who do not know where to begin.

It seems as though everyone wants what's best for the Shroomery, but we can't continue to ignore the problem without trying to fix it, rather than ignore it. So I think serious thought should be given to a minimum knowledge requirement quiz, as it seems to resolve almost every issue I have read. And if you don't agree with me, please tell me why.


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Meow.

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Invisibleagar
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: afoaf]
    #4878005 - 10/31/05 11:18 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Without argument - one way or another.

I think the POLL will speak for itself, given time.

Say, in a month from it's start date a vast majority vote for a split in the cult forum, or not.

If not, its a dead issue.

If yes, then some good idea's that already exist, as well as any other good suggestions on the HOW of it, should be set down in a succinct manner, then have another POLL, on the best way to do it - from those suggestions.

Then SUBMIT the matter to ADMIN - for consideration.

This is not some traumatic thing, nor should anyone become irate, threaten to leave, call names, get upset, or develop & maintain the attitude - you can either agree with me, or continue to be WRONG.

Mellow out, do a bong hit, be constructive, interact & see what the silent majority have to say. Isn't PATIANCE a primary part of Mush/Cult.


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OfflinePrajna
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: agar]
    #4878062 - 10/31/05 11:33 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

agar said:
Without argument - one way or another.

I think the POLL will speak for itself, given time.

Say, in a month from it's start date a vast majority vote for a split in the cult forum, or not.

If not, its a dead issue.

If yes, then some good idea's that already exist, as well as any other good suggestions on the HOW of it, should be set down in a succinct manner, then have another POLL, on the best way to do it - from those suggestions.

Then SUBMIT the matter to ADMIN - for consideration.

This is not some traumatic thing, nor should anyone become irate, threaten to leave, call names, get upset, or develop & maintain the attitude - you can either agree with me, or continue to be WRONG.

Mellow out, do a bong hit, be constructive, interact & see what the silent majority have to say. Isn't PATIANCE a primary part of Mush/Cult.





:thumbup:  :imwithstupid:  :grin:


--------------------

Edited by Prajna (10/31/05 11:34 PM)

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OfflineMycoCat
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: Prajna]
    #4878089 - 10/31/05 11:42 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Ok, could someone explain to me why we SHOULDN'T have a minimum knowledge requirement to post in cultivation?

All other thoughts notwithstanding, does this not seem like it would have positive results for the Shroomery? Regardless of the split, I don't see why this wasn't implemented in the beginning, because informed Shroomerites won't be asking (as many) stupid questions. I feel like this has gotten lost in the middle of the argument, when really it seems beneficial and capable of solving multiple issues.

I'm going to bed now though, so everyone feel free to ridicule me while I sleep.


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OfflineDragonShroom278
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: MycoCat]
    #4878433 - 11/01/05 02:21 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I like the quiz. And I like the sample questions in the closed thread over in cultivation.....If we got more of those questions, it would be great. I'm guessing this will put a burden on whoever is going to have to program or do whatever to get the quiz up and running...but hey its an idea.

Why would these things have to be graded? The one I took on that other website automatically returned your results right away....

I think people should think about the most repeated questions they hear, and have one person make up some questions about that topic.

The common problem/questions I see are

Casing Layers (too wet, too dry, how thick, wont colonize, what material is better)

Contams (is this a contam?) (make some questions testing their knowledge of the appearance/smell/ect. of the various contams)

Times (colonizing times, pinning times, fruiting times ect)"is my jar taking to long" "is it normal for my cake to not be done yet" and my personal favorite "its been an hour since I inoculated, and theres no growth yet, did I screw up!!!!"

YIELD.....I think we can all agree on this one..."how much will I yield from my cake? casing? bulk?" ect. .....I think there should just be a question saying "What is the average yield"...if they say anything except "Not possible to determine", there wrong.

Potency....."how do I make my shrooms more potent" "which shrooms will f*ck me up more faster better?".....


I think the shroomery should also promote searching the posts more, because theres only so many problems one could possibly have in this hobby, and with as many members as we have, someone is bound to have asked the question/had the problem before, up to this point I have found someone with the same question/problem I was having by searching the posts.

As for the quiz.....What to do with wrong answers.....eather just tell them they got it wrong and to try again after a certain time? Maybe just have a message saying "you have not met the set requirments to post on this forum, please review the FAQ's and search the posts and try again"..........or something.

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OfflineMcdoopy
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: DragonShroom278]
    #4878496 - 11/01/05 03:58 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I think most of the ideas are great and should all be considered. Any feedback from any mods?

Edited by Mcdoopy (11/01/05 03:59 AM)

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Offlineshirley knott
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: Mcdoopy]
    #4878857 - 11/01/05 09:16 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

i like the idea of a bong hit. agar has the best ideas  :thumbup:


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buh

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Invisiblesrgtm1a
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: agar]
    #4878959 - 11/01/05 09:50 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

agar said:

This is not some traumatic thing, nor should anyone become irate, threaten to leave, call names, get upset, or develop & maintain the attitude - you can either agree with me, or continue to be WRONG.

Mellow out, do a bong hit, be constructive, interact & see what the silent majority have to say. Isn't PATIANCE a primary part of Mush/Cult.




:thumbup: :thumbup:

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: geokills]
    #4878994 - 11/01/05 10:06 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

first, robustification!?

did he just say that!?

second, for more recent registrants, this very discussion
arises every year or so.

in fact, the reason why we have a disclaimer with links to
the faq and whatnot for noobs trying to post in cult with
less than 10 posts is because about 3 years ago, a bunch of
us made this very same point and prodded the admins to do
something to curb the influx of newbies cluttering up cult.

that is to say, this problem has existed for as long as this
site has existed and will continue to do so unless you curb
the root problem. to me, that root is the fact that the search
tools are not easily employed and that the faq is not
comprehensive enough.

(though, personally, I find the search tool very effective)

the fact of the matter is that you will NEVER stop the cyclical
rise and fall of annoying newbie posts.

so all you can do is continue to set precedent and teach them
to fish.

as I stated before...splitting the forums only spreads out the
problem, creates more moderator and administrative work and
does not address the root issue.

noobs will post in intermediate when they perceive that people
have stopped responding in basic cult...even if the very question
has been asked a million times before...if they can't find it,
they will post.

so you will be left with the same clutter among intermediate
discussions and moderators will continue to have to toil,
moving threads between adv, intermediate and beginner.

perhaps a couple more mods in cult can help to lock the
repetitive threads and direct posters to the relevant bits
in the FAQ, Wiki or search engine?

perhaps, if you have an intermediate discussion that is of
interest, you can have the mod sticky it or you can add it
to your favorites so that you can keep an eye on it...bump
as needed.

there will always be stupid noob questions and the cult
forum will always become busier at the begining of the school
year (as kids move out of mom's house for the first time).

build out the faq, begin a campaign of setting examples and
precedent in cult by directing goofy posters to the wiki
or faq bits and lock the threads...sticky the important ones
or otherwise actively keep them moving.

I haven't seen any argument that has convinced me that the
split of forums will actively mitigate the root issues
that have lead us to this thread.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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OfflineMycoCat
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: afoaf]
    #4879016 - 11/01/05 10:14 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Agreed.


--------------------
No question is so difficult to answer as that to which the answer is obvious.

Meow.

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: MycoCat]
    #4879196 - 11/01/05 10:55 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

that robustification isn't a word or the other thing? :grin:


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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OfflinegeokillsA
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: afoaf]
    #4879227 - 11/01/05 11:01 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I robustify the English lexicon at my own willire :smirk:

PS.  You hit on many of the points I also brought up in [this related thread]


--------------------

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··∙   long live the shroomery  ∙··
...π╥ ╥π...

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: geokills]
    #4879256 - 11/01/05 11:09 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

you gonna bring me my sweater?!


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Invisibleagar
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: afoaf]
    #4880069 - 11/01/05 03:17 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I thought "robustification"was how a person thinks after a BONG HIT & drinking to much codeine cough syrup. :rolleyes: :grin: :tongue:


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InvisibleFooMan
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: agar]
    #4888691 - 11/03/05 01:00 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I think one way would be to have a waiting period before being able to post, not view the forums. When a new member attempts their first post, they will get a message that basically says something like:

"To help curb some of the redundant questions being asked in this forum, all new users will be required to wait X amount of time before being allowed to post. We believe that this will encourage new users to find the answers to basic questions by searching for them on the site, rather than posting a question that has been answered many times before. Most any question you could possibly ask has been answered at one time or another here. Please take this time to learn how to use our search function and read carefully through the FAQ's and previous threads, as they contain a wealth of information that is sure to answer almost any question you could have. Of course, if you still have questions after the waiting period, feel free to post them at that time."

Just an idea :grin:

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